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How to turn me into a libertarian: the rise of the out-lefting left

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by ideogenous_mover, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Lately I've been watching contemporary debates and content on the left, along with various critiques. All of this culminates to this moment now, where for perhaps the first time, I am actually giving the Libertarian position serious consideration. Just a few weeks ago, I was writing arguments against the position, and now I find myself nearly ready to back it

    The problem is, I am perceiving the formation of a lefter-than-you left, basically a witch hunting left, for those on the left. Those identifying as being on the 'right,' need not even be a part of those being criticized, they don't even enter the picture. It seems to be more about straining out the 'impurity,' more than even bothering with those considered 'impure.

    This is where the 'left' goes wrong, because I think that maybe the out-lefting with never stop, if out-left becomes the model. The goal post will always move, and they will consider everyone to the right of their goalpost as being on the right, no matter how left they are. The end result would surely be not much different than a medieval theocracy. What is ad hom and accusation now, might not stay that way in a society that becomes based more on purity

    This a problem that the libertarians surely can't have, if I perceive their territory correctly. A view is not allowed to be a goalpost, it is merely a view. Different groups with different views are perhaps even allowed to form, and even disagree, but these views cannot be used as measuring sticks.

    I used to think that human nature cannot really handle libertarianism, but now I see that perhaps it should be trained to, even if that takes a good measure of faith and hope. In other words, I think it has a hard time handling freedom, but that is the 'lesser evil' than trying to make purity into a functional tool
     
    #1 ideogenous_mover, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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  3. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I think there's too much there for me to give a short and broad view on it, but I am starting to see the light on certain things ..
     
  4. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I almost always test centrist, but I think that government expansion just goes hand in hand with increase in population and productivity. A lot of people don't seem to get that and want to go too far in either way. Either they want it to expand too fast or don't understand that it needs to expand.
     
    #4 robocop (actually), Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  5. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    What you are describing is a very small but vocal minority. Sadly it's folks on the left mimicking what the right has been doing for the last decade, that is 'purifying' the party of what they call RINOS. Fortunately the left has always been far more diverse and accepting of alternative viewpoints, which is why I don't think this vocal minority is a terribly great threat. The biggest problem it poses is the possibility that people will just listen to the vocal minority and falsely conclude that they represent the majority.
     
    #5 QuestioningMind, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Fixed.
     
  7. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Well, a guess a problem is, that might be the story of human history.

    the people in the red quadrant are the ones with the solidified views, and most western people on the left are in the green area. To the minority in the red area, the people in the green area might just look like potential adherents , if they are magnetized by the views that give foundation to authority
     
  8. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Until those view points set the bar. Then, the libertarians get to claim what you state here.
     
  9. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think that problem that is just as important, or more important, would be how the last century has been an era where superpowers find themselves in competitive gridlock.

    But I am pro-birth control, as I agree that I don't see a positive correlation between soaring population and general freedom.
     
  10. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Fight for life and fight for efficiency... try to please everyone.
     
  11. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    I agree that the far left is often going too far. But it seems like there are choices in addition to "far left" and "libertarian". How about being a moderate liberal for example? ;)
     
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  12. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I suppose that under the libertarian position, views are more descriptive than they are proscriptive. Therefore, there really isn't any 'fight' in the view I stated. You are free to follow the practice you wish
     
  13. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, the moderate liberal will be chewed up by the far left. It is kind of happening before our eyes. The Libertarian position, conversely, might actually give you something to hold onto, even though you'd think it's as good as air. The left can't put a bar where there's nowhere to set it
     
  14. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Considering the OP problem, I think you will find "puritans" in pretty much any community. In libertarian cliques, you will have "the weirdo for whom everything is theft/slavery". On the left, you will have "the weirdo for whom everything is oppression". On the right you will have the "weirdo for everything is socialism". In the center you will have "the weirdo for whom everything is extreme/fringe". Even in extreme and fringe groups there are such "weirdos". Amongst the neo-nazi there are those who advocate for super strick racial purity laws and literal death camps. Amongst communists, you have the never completely gone stalinists. Left unchecked and in a position of power, the "weirdo" can indeed turn a movement upside down. You can't really run away from such problem, you will find it everywhere.
     
  15. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    What you think of as "far left" is moderate in other countries and it once was in the US. The right used that tactic, to always demand the just ridiculous to compromise "in the middle", to move the Overtone window more and more to the right.
    Progressives have to demand all the cake to get half of it.
     
  16. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    No, not in a democracy. Even it is USA the moderates in the Democratic party outweighs the far left. Now overall in history fro the Western world we have been moving to the left since the old Greek city states.
    You have to differentiate between democratic left versus authoritarian left. Just as with the right or even the center.
     
  17. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Overton.

    Auto-text?! :D
     
  18. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    • "Slash federal spending, make government much smaller, and let you keep what you earn -Jorgensen. " This is the fundamental insanity of libertarianism. You cannot create or maintain a modern society with this idea.
     
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  19. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    That's the problem... they don't want you to do better, and they won't step in and get you to do it, even if society or the economy are deteriorating.
     
  20. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    I recommend letting your political philosophy be whatever calls to you.
    If it means you don't fit in well with others surrounding your place in
    the spectrum, then so be it. You would unlikely be satisfied adopting
    a philosophy based upon external concerns, eg, political wrangling.
    Believe what you really believe, & find a way to cope with those around
    you, ie, achieve what you can without expecting to get it all.

    As I see it...
    Libertarians aren't going to win office & have much power.
    But we might be able to influence others toward public policies
    that lean more libertarian than they would without us.
     
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