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How to Read the Bible, and Still be a Christian

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually it seems like you are trying to give your opinion, saying it's scholarly, while not considering anything, even though you posed the premise in a question format. You are really just making your argument worse, with this type of argument.
I actually was not making an argument. I was stating what the scholarship that Crossan and others have discovered through decades of critical research, is going a long ways to help reconcile for me this contradiction in the natures of God I had encountered as a Christian studying the Bible in seminary.

I can then make arguments myself, based upon this understanding of theirs backed by their scholarship, as to how I would understand this to mean from my perspective and unique personal experiences. Not everything I may state here is a direct reflection of Crossan's thoughts. I wouldn't expect so, actually. I have other sets of eyes I bring into this discussion based upon personal experience.

When I stated your claims about scripture seemed "ad libbed", that was to say these have the appearance of just uninformed lay speculation, squinting the eyes this way or that to see a certain hidden truth and such. What I'm talking seeks to have foundations in valid scholarship, which offers a wider, more expansive perspective than just stating uninformed opinion. You would be right to say those don't amount to much. That's as true for me as it is for you. What scholarship can you point to to back up your opinions?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you are going to read the Bible and still be a Christian, you have to completely rework the Tanakh (what Christians pretensiously call the Old Testament) to the point that you are ignoring what it teaches at a very basic level. Some Christians make no bones about this, never even cracking open the Tanakh. Christianity is essentially contained in the Christian Scriptures (what they call the New Testament).
This is not true at all, as you would see if you spent some time with what is covered in the OP. Perhaps watch some of the attached video, if nothing else?

What Jesus emphasised as the good loving bits, come from the OT. He would have had to "rework" it as much as anyone else who walks away from reading it that "eye for an eye" is not the spiritual path to follow. Again, Christianity with its brutal book of the Revelation, has as much, if not even more violence than what you find in the OT books. But it also contains the beauty that is found it in as well. That is what this threads talks about.

Nobody is ignoring anything. It is being looked at, and addressed head on with eyes wide opened. That is not cherry picking at all. It's evaluating the nature of what it is, and why it is in there, placing things into context, and backing it up with evidences. All of this is touched on in the OP, which explains what the title of the thread is about. In what ways is what was said lacking in veracity?
 
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PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
If you are going to read the Bible and still be a Christian, you have to completely rework the Tanakh (what Christians pretensiously call the Old Testament) to the point that you are ignoring what it teaches at a very basic level. Some Christians make no bones about this, never even cracking open the Tanakh. Christianity is essentially contained in the Christian Scriptures (what they call the New Testament).

Old and new covenant (testament) is already in the Tanakh.

“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD." But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Jer)
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I do not feel threatened by God. Nor should anyone. Love does not use fear to call us to itself. Love does not use fear to keep us in line. Love never threatens.

In your experience of God, could you imagine that Love, casting people into hell, or is that something you read that put that idea in your head? Did your experience teach you this, or someone interpreting the Bible? I can tell you in my case, it certainly was not the former, and most certainly the latter. How about yourself?

As far as hell goes, yes, metaphorically hell exists as a state of being, not a place with flames. It it not a "place", nor is it really real at all, as something created by God to send naughty people to for their bad things they did in life. That is a child's imagination of what is a metaphorical truth. What is that truth? What is hell?

Hell literally is the state of separation from the divine in our conscious awareness of self and the world. To be separate from the Source of our being in our minds, creates a condition of existential anguish. People just live with this, creating fictions of reality in their minds which they identify as. We live and act out of accord with our true nature, which is simply being a child of God. We all are that by birth. But we "fall" from that Grace that gave rise to our very being itself, as we slip into a state of a separate self, losing sight of the wonder of life and reality we had as children while our eyes were still open and could see the miracle in everything.

This then gets mired in muck as we struggle with our failings, our sins as it were, then compounded by feelings of guilt and shame and regrets. This all then gets wrapped up in fear, and everything we see begins to be colorized by fear's constant presence in our lives as the guardian of our guilt. Eventually, we no longer see the miracle in the world, but instead we see a reflection of our own self-image which we hold as fearful. The world moves from inviting, to threatening.

And most people do not see that shroud over their faces and their eyes. It's like seeing through a smokey haze so long, that is just what the world looks like. Until the haze is cleared and you can see clearly, "even as you are known". Then, we know what being alive is. We know what Freedom is. We see the whole illusion as it is, a great show for us to believe in, which created this state of separation from the Divine, which we knew in our childhoods, in our innocence.

All these stories of the bible are beautiful metaphors for just this. Hell is what life is right now, in the present, and potential futures as we live blind to Reality or God. Once we have tasted that "Salvation", that Liberation from that prison, then you understand what hell is. It is not a literal place of fire, but it is a literal state of being in existential anguish, being alone, isolated, separated in this world, from our Source, from the world, from others and from ourselves.

What troubles me for you, is that to imagine God is literally capable of directed violence, creates a face of terror rather than Love. Love is invitational. It never forces. It never is violent. "Love works no ill". How can we know true love in its purest form, of unconditional acceptance as we let go of our own shame and embrace it wholly, if we are holding onto fear? How can we accept Love, if we believe it is capable of autorcities? How could we fully trust ourselves into a being which threatens, rather than is a Refuge?

The "something I read" from where I learned about perdition is called "The Holy Bible". Unless you can explain how you know Heaven is literal and Hell is metaphorical--since countless verses mention both physical locations--I have to understand that you are cherry picking and interpreting the Bible based on experience, which is something all exegetes try to avoid as a primary rule.

I agree with you on many points as to what love is, but God is not only love but a God of justice, even vengeance.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
The Bible is said to be inspired by God. So it's also man's word. When I've read it cover to cover I sensed words are filled with this inspiration like the disappearing river - sometimes inspiration is stronger (man's word in tune with God's Word) sometimes weaker, even out of tune.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The "something I read" from where I learned about perdition is called "The Holy Bible".
What is the Bible? Is is it a single book, or is it a collection of different books compiled together as a library of books? That is a key understanding here for you and others who believe the Bible is a single book we need to address. When you say "the Bible said it", that is not what really is going on. What is the Bible?

The Bible is actually a library of different books, and a cover wrapped around a collection of these different books, from different traditions, each expressing their own vision and view of God. There are also different collections of books in different Bibles. There is no "Bible", but there are different bibles, with different books. This has to be understood. And once understood, then you have to ask which author said what, and what was the background and circumstances, the tradition the author followed, the context of the the time in history, and so forth.

In other words, there is not a single voice that you can say "The Bible says" as if it is a thing alone by itself. It simply is not.

If you listen to Crossan's video I shared in the OP, he talks about those different traditions by name, and you will see the different faces of God each of those traditions held. What you have in the Bible, is not a single message, not a single image of God, but different, competing images. He goes into this, in the video, as well of course in his book based upon his many years as a researcher, historian, theologian, and scholar.

The Bible as a single book with a single message, is a mythology created in modern times by conservative fundamentalists as a mythic response to modernity's critical research methodologies. It is inherently contradictory, and has to ignore, or "cherry pick" the bible in order to try to make the theology fit.

Unless you can explain how you know Heaven is literal and Hell is metaphorical--since countless verses mention both physical locations--I have to understand that you are cherry picking and interpreting the Bible based on experience, which is something all exegetes try to avoid as a primary rule.
I have never claimed heaven as a literal place with "physical locations". I do not see in that way, as literal "places". And I do not agree that the Bible specifically calls out "physical locations". Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God as very much not a "place". He pointed to the world before him and said in essence "this is the kingdom of God. It is here among you, in your very midst. You just don't see it". He specifically told them not to look for here "here or there", or a "physical location.

As far a cherry picking goes, most certainly I am not. Cherry picking only selects verses that support how you believe, while rationalizing away contradictions, or outright ignoring them. Cherry picking is a form of intellectual dishonesty. Yet everything I have and am saying, very much looks at everything and considers all of them critically, not ignoring or making excuses for the unpleasant bits, like trying to say that absolute Love, somehow, can be violent. Which it cannot.

I acknowledge the Bible has a violent portrayal of God, complete with burning people in endless tortures. I know it's there. That is what this thread is about, to understand why its in there, and how one can possible accept that God is Love, while at the same time reading how violent and unforgiving he is to those who fail being perfect.

I agree with you on many points as to what love is, but God is not only love but a God of justice, even vengeance.
Would you burn someone horribly while keeping them alive in order for them to suffer, because they didn't obey you? Do you see Jesus, who teaches the path of love and forgiveness, as capable of such monstrous action? I cannot. Loving Jesus, holding those whom he loves in his arms, while severed heads lay at his feet? I understand love to be very, very different than that image.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Old and new covenant (testament) is already in the Tanakh.

“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD." But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Jer)
This is not the "new covenant" that is described in your Christian Scriptures. Indeed the new covenant described in Jeremiah hasn't happened yet -- it can't have because what this describes clearly hasn't come into being. The Torah is NOT written on our hearts -- we have to be taught it.

IN ADDITION, Jeremiah 31:34 says,
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
IOW everyone will automatically know God, and that is just not true yet, there are all sorts of atheists and agnostics around.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
This is not the "new covenant" that is described in your Christian Scriptures. Indeed the new covenant described in Jeremiah hasn't happened yet -- it can't have because what this describes clearly hasn't come into being. The Torah is NOT written on our hearts -- we have to be taught it.

IN ADDITION, Jeremiah 31:34 says,
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
IOW everyone will automatically know God, and that is just not true yet, there are all sorts of atheists and agnostics around.
It's also in Ezekiel 36:26-27:
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

I agree. The kingdom of God (rule of God from within) has not been fully established yet. But the dawning has already begun. The promise is fulfilling. We are in transition.

Do you really think there is no one in this world under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Do we obey only some outside rules? What about Jesus, what about the Pentecost?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What is the Bible? Is is it a single book, or is it a collection of different books compiled together as a library of books? That is a key understanding here for you and others who believe the Bible is a single book we need to address. When you say "the Bible said it", that is not what really is going on. What is the Bible?

The Bible is actually a library of different books, and a cover wrapped around a collection of these different books, from different traditions, each expressing their own vision and view of God. There are also different collections of books in different Bibles. There is no "Bible", but there are different bibles, with different books. This has to be understood. And once understood, then you have to ask which author said what, and what was the background and circumstances, the tradition the author followed, the context of the the time in history, and so forth.

In other words, there is not a single voice that you can say "The Bible says" as if it is a thing alone by itself. It simply is not.

If you listen to Crossan's video I shared in the OP, he talks about those different traditions by name, and you will see the different faces of God each of those traditions held. What you have in the Bible, is not a single message, not a single image of God, but different, competing images. He goes into this, in the video, as well of course in his book based upon his many years as a researcher, historian, theologian, and scholar.

The Bible as a single book with a single message, is a mythology created in modern times by conservative fundamentalists as a mythic response to modernity's critical research methodologies. It is inherently contradictory, and has to ignore, or "cherry pick" the bible in order to try to make the theology fit.


I have never claimed heaven as a literal place with "physical locations". I do not see in that way, as literal "places". And I do not agree that the Bible specifically calls out "physical locations". Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God as very much not a "place". He pointed to the world before him and said in essence "this is the kingdom of God. It is here among you, in your very midst. You just don't see it". He specifically told them not to look for here "here or there", or a "physical location.

As far a cherry picking goes, most certainly I am not. Cherry picking only selects verses that support how you believe, while rationalizing away contradictions, or outright ignoring them. Cherry picking is a form of intellectual dishonesty. Yet everything I have and am saying, very much looks at everything and considers all of them critically, not ignoring or making excuses for the unpleasant bits, like trying to say that absolute Love, somehow, can be violent. Which it cannot.

I acknowledge the Bible has a violent portrayal of God, complete with burning people in endless tortures. I know it's there. That is what this thread is about, to understand why its in there, and how one can possible accept that God is Love, while at the same time reading how violent and unforgiving he is to those who fail being perfect.


Would you burn someone horribly while keeping them alive in order for them to suffer, because they didn't obey you? Do you see Jesus, who teaches the path of love and forgiveness, as capable of such monstrous action? I cannot. Loving Jesus, holding those whom he loves in his arms, while severed heads lay at his feet? I understand love to be very, very different than that image.

There are 66 Bible books. Which of them only describes love and not the justice of God?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are 66 Bible books. Which of them only describes love and not the justice of God?
They all describe the justice of God. Not all of them describe the God of Love, however. They are just different, competing, and contradictory visions of what that justice entails.

1. Distributive Justice, where all get sufficient needs met, where there are no haves and have-nots. Where men and women are considered equals. Where there is no free and slave. Where violence and force, repression and suppression are no more, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. Forgiveness and Peace are nonviolent and invitational.

2. Retributive Justice, where vengence, violence and force is used to punish, destroy, grind into dust, and win being on top instead of the bottom. This is the world system of oppression and victory through violence that the Roman empire exemplified, except instead of Rome being the violent destroyer of the enemies of state, you have Jesus Christ portrayed as the violent destroyer of the enemies of God. Not any different in application. Only the names have been changed, not the ways.

Again, no one is saying there is no justice with God. But based on the two above, which sounds more like the ways of God which Jesus taught, "love your enemies", and which sounds more like the world, attributed to God, "destroy the enemies"?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's also in Ezekiel 36:26-27:
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

I agree. The kingdom of God (rule of God from within) has not been fully established yet. But the dawning has already begun. The promise is fulfilling. We are in transition.

Do you really think there is no one in this world under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Do we obey only some outside rules? What about Jesus, what about the Pentecost?
We have ALWAYS been in transition. There have always been righteous men and women with hearts near to Hashem, who have walked in his ways.
 
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