How to prove God to an atheist (no, really)...

[michel]

s2a,


Your first post ........."I've offered a sure fire way to convert a few billion heathens to your particular faith or beliefs with little more effort than prayerful request of your omniscient, all-powerful God to so enlighten, and consequently save these immortal souls for all eternity.

So I ask you, what's wrong with that?"................

GOD DOES NOT NEED TO PROVE HIMSELF TO YOU; YOU NEED TO PROVE YOURSELF TO HIM.

You see, you just seem to incapable of understanding that amazingly basic fact.:shout

 

[Pah]

S2a,

Better watch that head slappin, it can give you a false sense of superiority...

So you throw down a challenge to God to come and prove himself to you because you don't beleive, and He is supposed to drop everything else He is doing and accomodate you, on your terms! You must think the universe revolves around you as well...

Sabio

That's what we call an ad hominem - attacking the person intead of the arguements. It's seen as weakness for your points.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

GOD DOES NOT NEED TO PROVE HIMSELF TO YOU; YOU NEED TO PROVE YOURSELF TO HIM.

Shouting renders this kind of naive, faith-driven protest no less baseless.

 

[michel]

Shouting renders this kind of naive, faith-driven protest no less baseless.

It may be baseless to you Deut, but it is not so to me; the reason I 'shouted it' was because I have already pointed this out to the recipint, and he has ignored it; I hoped he would hear this time.

If you chose to call it naive, and baseless, that is your right - but your opinion is worth no more and no less than mine.

 

[Natas]

I just want to jump in here and say that I have really enjoyed the discussion in this thread so far.

I must say, it sounds like S2a has done his homework and presents an extremely good logical argument. Most of the rebuttals to his logic have been (imo) short on logic and long on emotion. From the direction your responses are going though, it seems to me that even your combined wit is unable to answer S2a's original question in this thread.

With the shouting and personal attacks increasing, it also seems that desperation is setting in here. From what I have read in other threads, most of you are capable of much better debating and I really see no need for this display.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people looking at this thread will come away with the feeling that you believe your side of the argument is correct because, "You know it is."

I understand the point that God doesn't need to explain anything to anybody because it's already there to see if someone wants to "see" it. So why even bother to answer S2a at all if you really feel there is no need to explain anything? Being smug with your beliefs doesn't help us to understand them better.

 

[Sabio]

I just want to jump in here and say that I have really enjoyed the discussion in this thread so far.

I must say, it sounds like S2a has done his homework and presents an extremely good logical argument. Most of the rebuttals to his logic have been (imo) short on logic and long on emotion. From the direction your responses are going though, it seems to me that even your combined wit is unable to answer S2a's original question in this thread.

With the shouting and personal attacks increasing, it also seems that desperation is setting in here. From what I have read in other threads, most of you are capable of much better debating and I really see no need for this display.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people looking at this thread will come away with the feeling that you believe your side of the argument is correct because, "You know it is."

I understand the point that God doesn't need to explain anything to anybody because it's already there to see if someone wants to "see" it. So why even bother to answer S2a at all if you really feel there is no need to explain anything? Being smug with your beliefs doesn't help us to understand them better.

Point taken Natas:

I apologize to S2A for my remarks.

Sabio

 

[s2a]

Hello Michel,

You said:

"GOD DOES NOT NEED TO PROVE HIMSELF TO YOU; YOU NEED TO PROVE YOURSELF TO HIM.

You see, you just seem to incapable of understanding that amazingly basic fact.

...the reason I 'shouted it' was because I have already pointed this out to the recipint, and he has ignored it; I hoped he would hear this time."

Michel, I heard you the first time, way back on the first page of this thread; and replied to you directly and accordingly in post #5.

I understood you (and what you were trying to convey) the first time, providing you with pointed rebuttal.

I did not ignore your (repetitively) reiterated point (as if incessantly repeating it would render a different result each time). I offered you courtesy of pointed reply in each and every pertinent instance.

What you would accord as an "amazingly basic fact", amounts to no more than an ordinary testament of faith. I acknowledged your outward piety, and your proselytizing promotion of elemental Christian dogma.

What does constitute an "amazingly basic fact" is that you have yet to actually answer the question. Either you can, and will; or you can't, and you won't. Either way is fine with me, but it's pointless to simply traverse this distance of discourse only to return exactly back at where we began (post #5).

Even if you don't want to answer the question at hand (ie., "Such a proposed miracle is wrong, and here's the Scriptural support that illustrates exactly and specifically why..."), you could at least answer the underlying factors of the premised proposal itself, as I outlined in post #5.

One final time, as C&P from my post to you (#5):

"For example (as far as the Christian faith is concerned):

- Does all Scripture suggest that believers NOT pray that unbelievers "see", "find", or "discover" God (or that He might intervene on their behalf)?

- Does all Scripture suggest/emphatically state that "miracles" are worthless in converting unbelievers?

- Are all "miracles" intended solely for the benefit of believers (in reinforcing faith)?

- Is faith *lessened* in some way by witnessing a "miracle"?

- Are some "miracles" too much (or too generalized) to ask of God (like, say, "World Peace")?

- Is there a cut-off, or a specified number, of "affected" (or resultant) converts requisite before praying for divine intervention (ie, a "miracle") as "worthy"? Would such a proposed "miracle" be "unworthy" (of God's time, attention, and effort) if only ONE convert was realized?

- Does Scripture suggest that witness of/to "miracles" has in fact effected instantaneous and devout conversion and belief, or does it not?

In essence (though other examples are extant), *these* are the questions that are underlying subtext of, "What's wrong with that?".

If you would offer, "Yes it's wrong, and here's why..."; well, *that's* the Scriptural reference that I'm seeking as support to that perspective/position.

If you would offer, "No, there's nothing wrong with that"; then I would suggest that believers get praying. There's a few billion souls at stake, and such a "miracle" would at least deliver one more believer into their midst."

Michel;
I heard you.
I understood what you said.
I did not ignore what you said.

Which is why I replied to you in post #29:
"If you believe that God places an onus upon HIs believers to spread His "message" (with the associative claims of divine reward/punishment, purpose, reasons "why", and absolute/ultimate "truths), and "help" unbelievers "see the light" (and "save" them from an unpleasant eternal afterlife), or "read the message" resident within the hearts (or on the sleeves) of "true believers", then yeah...you kinda bear the burden put before you - not placed by atheists, mind you...but as instructed by your own God.

It's not your faith, or my inability to see/hear the "message" that's in question. I have long conceded that "believers" can not provide (compelling or convincing) "proof" of their claims of supernatural deities/spirits/forces, or cause/effect. But maybe, your God can and would, if enough of His believers asked Him to do so."

To be fair, and to acknowledge the sentiments I expressed regarding your (hardly unique, but outside of "mainstream" Christian dogma) personalized revelation and understanding of Scripture (in post #43), yours is a particularly difficult perspective to support utilizing strictly literally interpretive Biblical teachings.

As I prefaced in my introductory post to this forum:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=185180#post185180 ]

I am left but to wonder whether you heard me, understood what I said, or just ignored a most earnest and sincere introduction.

..........
You said to Deut. 32:8 -

"If you chose to call it naive, and baseless, that is your right - but your opinion is worth no more and no less than mine."

Just to quibble, but while the "right" to express an opinion is certainly shared by everyone, the "value" of an expressed opinion is quantifiably measurable, and can be readily discerned by discriminating participants within any public forum.

 

[s2a]

Hello Sabio,

You said:

"I apologize to S2A for my remarks."

Apology accepted, though I partook of no extraordinary offense.

"Better watch that head slappin, it can give you a false sense of superiority..."

Akin to those that claim, "I know that what I believe is the 'truth'"?

"So you throw down a challenge to God to come and prove himself to you because you don't beleive, and He is supposed to drop everything else He is doing and accomodate you, on your terms! You must think the universe revolves around you as well..."

The "challenge" is presented to believers, not to any god. If you believe in an all-powerful and omniscient god, what possible "challenge" could exceed his capacities or abilities? Why would such a god have to "drop" anything? I make no claims of any god.

You tell me...

Does your god intervene (either in compassion, mercy, reward, or punishment) on a personal level, or not? If so, does He drop "everything else" to do so? I place no limits upon the claimed capacities of whatever deity you acknowledge as yours. What limits do you impose upon Him?

Would you care to actually answer the question now?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It may be baseless to you Deut, but it is not so to me; the reason I 'shouted it' was because I have already pointed this out to the recipint, and he has ignored it; I hoped he would hear this time.

If you chose to call it naive, and baseless, that is your right - but your opinion is worth no more and no less than mine.

Very well, on what bases do you claim expertise on the nature and requirements of a supernatural deity and how might that knowledge be validated?

 

[waR toRn Rebel]

Well I'm just kind of jumping in here, but if we are speaking of the Christian god he will not express himself, Because acording to the bible he already has by sending his only begotten son and blah blah blah.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well I'm just kind of jumping in here, but if we are speaking of the Christian god he will not express himself, Because acording to the bible he already has by sending his only begotten son and blah blah blah.

That sentence makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Tranzient]

First off, let me say that s2a seems to really know his stuff. Congratulations on that, I envy your knowledge and articulation.

Second, a note on Buddhism, while many Buddhists believe in reincarnation, some (like myself) believe that states of existence happen moment to moment, not lifetime to lifetime. I really won't elaborate further; it is another topic for another thread.

Third, I would like to respond to comments like (paraphrasing) "God doesn't need to prove himself to you." If indeed, there is a all-powerful god then this is true. But what about a god that says he DOES want to be a part of your life? It doesn't quite make sense that god wants you to know him, at the same time, he doesn't provide you a solid piece of evidence.

This leads to my next point: for everyone that has claimed (once again, paraphrasing) "God has already given you all the evidence you need," how does your "evidence" prove your god versus any other? Some people might say "The universe is too complex for there to be no creator." While a weak argument, (just because you can't understand something doesn't prove a higher intelligence at work. In fact, if you don't understand something, you shouldn't be making claims on how it came to be), this doesn't prove your god versus anyone else's. And that includeds any god(s) that have never been discovered or thought up. This all ties back to s2a's original post. The miracle would need to be religion specific.

As a last thought, s2a has expressed that if a miracle such as the stars aligning to make a message in the sky happened, he would be a believer. How many believers out there would change thier religion if the message was specific to another religion besides your own? In other words, if the message says "I am the pink elephant god," would you be willing to change your faith? If not, then s2a would be more open-minded then you, which (dealing with local religious adherants) you would like to believe you are not the closed-minded one.

 

[s2a]

First off, let me say that s2a seems to really know his stuff. Congratulations on that, I envy your knowledge and articulation.

Second, a note on Buddhism, while many Buddhists believe in reincarnation, some (like myself) believe that states of existence happen moment to moment, not lifetime to lifetime. I really won't elaborate further; it is another topic for another thread.

Third, I would like to respond to comments like (paraphrasing) "God doesn't need to prove himself to you." If indeed, there is a all-powerful god then this is true. But what about a god that says he DOES want to be a part of your life? It doesn't quite make sense that god wants you to know him, at the same time, he doesn't provide you a solid piece of evidence.

This leads to my next point: for everyone that has claimed (once again, paraphrasing) "God has already given you all the evidence you need," how does your "evidence" prove your god versus any other? Some people might say "The universe is too complex for there to be no creator." While a weak argument, (just because you can't understand something doesn't prove a higher intelligence at work. In fact, if you don't understand something, you shouldn't be making claims on how it came to be), this doesn't prove your god versus anyone else's. And that includeds any god(s) that have never been discovered or thought up. This all ties back to s2a's original post. The miracle would need to be religion specific.

As a last thought, s2a has expressed that if a miracle such as the stars aligning to make a message in the sky happened, he would be a believer. How many believers out there would change thier religion if the message was specific to another religion besides your own? In other words, if the message says "I am the pink elephant god," would you be willing to change your faith? If not, then s2a would be more open-minded then you, which (dealing with local religious adherants) you would like to believe you are not the closed-minded one.

Well...*blush*. How can I not frubal such a glowing overview? ;-)

I would have replied more immediately Tranzient, but I have been on an imposed hiatus of sorts...

 

[michel]

Hello Michel,

You said:


Michel, I heard you the first time, way back on the first page of this thread; and replied to you directly and accordingly in post #5.

I understood you (and what you were trying to convey) the first time, providing you with pointed rebuttal.

I did not ignore your (repetitively) reiterated point (as if incessantly repeating it would render a different result each time). I offered you courtesy of pointed reply in each and every pertinent instance.

What you would accord as an "amazingly basic fact", amounts to no more than an ordinary testament of faith. I acknowledged your outward piety, and your proselytizing promotion of elemental Christian dogma.

What does constitute an "amazingly basic fact" is that you have yet to actually answer the question. Either you can, and will; or you can't, and you won't. Either way is fine with me, but it's pointless to simply traverse this distance of discourse only to return exactly back at where we began (post #5).

Even if you don't want to answer the question at hand (ie., "Such a proposed miracle is wrong, and here's the Scriptural support that illustrates exactly and specifically why..."), you could at least answer the underlying factors of the premised proposal itself, as I outlined in post #5.

One final time, as C&P from my post to you (#5):

"For example (as far as the Christian faith is concerned):

- Does all Scripture suggest that believers NOT pray that unbelievers "see", "find", or "discover" God (or that He might intervene on their behalf)?

- Does all Scripture suggest/emphatically state that "miracles" are worthless in converting unbelievers?

- Are all "miracles" intended solely for the benefit of believers (in reinforcing faith)?

- Is faith *lessened* in some way by witnessing a "miracle"?

- Are some "miracles" too much (or too generalized) to ask of God (like, say, "World Peace")?

- Is there a cut-off, or a specified number, of "affected" (or resultant) converts requisite before praying for divine intervention (ie, a "miracle") as "worthy"? Would such a proposed "miracle" be "unworthy" (of God's time, attention, and effort) if only ONE convert was realized?

- Does Scripture suggest that witness of/to "miracles" has in fact effected instantaneous and devout conversion and belief, or does it not?

In essence (though other examples are extant), *these* are the questions that are underlying subtext of, "What's wrong with that?".

If you would offer, "Yes it's wrong, and here's why..."; well, *that's* the Scriptural reference that I'm seeking as support to that perspective/position.

If you would offer, "No, there's nothing wrong with that"; then I would suggest that believers get praying. There's a few billion souls at stake, and such a "miracle" would at least deliver one more believer into their midst."

Michel;
I heard you.
I understood what you said.
I did not ignore what you said.

Which is why I replied to you in post #29:
"If you believe that God places an onus upon HIs believers to spread His "message" (with the associative claims of divine reward/punishment, purpose, reasons "why", and absolute/ultimate "truths), and "help" unbelievers "see the light" (and "save" them from an unpleasant eternal afterlife), or "read the message" resident within the hearts (or on the sleeves) of "true believers", then yeah...you kinda bear the burden put before you - not placed by atheists, mind you...but as instructed by your own God.

It's not your faith, or my inability to see/hear the "message" that's in question. I have long conceded that "believers" can not provide (compelling or convincing) "proof" of their claims of supernatural deities/spirits/forces, or cause/effect. But maybe, your God can and would, if enough of His believers asked Him to do so."

To be fair, and to acknowledge the sentiments I expressed regarding your (hardly unique, but outside of "mainstream" Christian dogma) personalized revelation and understanding of Scripture (in post #43), yours is a particularly difficult perspective to support utilizing strictly literally interpretive Biblical teachings.

As I prefaced in my introductory post to this forum:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=185180#post185180 ]

I am left but to wonder whether you heard me, understood what I said, or just ignored a most earnest and sincere introduction.

..........
You said to Deut. 32:8 -
Just to quibble, but while the "right" to express an opinion is certainly shared by everyone, the "value" of an expressed opinion is quantifiably measurable, and can be readily discerned by discriminating participants within any public forum.

Sorry Cal, I hadn't seen your reply to mine.


This entire argument is not really applicable to me, and that is why I am having trouble answering your questions.

My Faith is a personal one which includes my relationship with God. Recently, I changed my "Label" to "Gnostic Christian", because that is the only type of Christian I can be.

I regard the Bible as a vety innacurate history book, written by (maybe well meaning ) "supposedly inspired by God" humans; I, personally define myself as "Gnostic" because my faith is not one based on scripture, but based on my own personal relationship with God.

Now, you have every right to question my sanity, my gullability in interpreting feelings I have felt, for me, about my God , but that, of course, is entirely up to you.

As far as my duties and obligations to God are concerned, I believe that I have to live a life as free from sin as I can manage (and, unfortunately, I am a bit of a recalcitrant sinner - whatever my good intentions may be).....I am not here on Earth to convince anyone else that they ough to believe in my God. IF someone asks me about my beliefs, I will tell them what I believe; it is up to them to decide whether I am a misguided lunatic, or whether they believe that they want to achive what I have achieved - in which case, I would most certainly help them as much as possible; but, they have to ask for my help.

 

[camanintx]

Hehe, What's wrong with that? - the basic premise that you ask God to Prove himself to you! I can understand your skepticism, but God wants you to commit yourself to him, on faith alone, and through the scriptures........

Isn't this a catch 22? You can't believe in God unless you have faith in God. You can't have faith in God unless you believe in God. If it is up to each of us to choose to believe, then how does anyone know that they have chosen the right God?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Isn't this a catch 22? You can't believe in God unless you have faith in God. You can't have faith in God unless you believe in God. If it is up to each of us to choose to believe, then how does anyone know that they have chosen the right God?

Also, the scriptures themselves seem to say something other than what michel is suggesting:

Matthew 7:7-11:

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Matthew 7:15-20

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Isn't a foundation for a true belief in God a "good gift"? And if we can find no proof of the existence of God, isn't this the "fruit" by which we can recognize Him (or at least His desire to be known)?

 

[rocka21]

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



Sorry, God already said how them that believe will believe.

there was a man in hell who wanted some special " miracle" for his brothers so they don't go there.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

I love his answer, they have moses and the prophets! ( you have preachers and the church) , let them hear them.

You want some stars to move! LOL! God sent his prophets.

but just incase you missed it.......

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


YES! one rose from the dead, just as icing on the cake to let the world know THERE IS A GOD! and guess what? we still don't believe. Just as the scripture says.
how sad...........


so in short, do you really want to know if there is a God?

Go to is house
Listen to his prophets ( preachers)

and get saved like everyone else.

or you can sit and wait for that star thing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

so in short, do you really want to know if there is a God?

Go to is house
Listen to his prophets ( preachers)

and get saved like everyone else.

or you can sit and wait for that star thing.

Why do you assume that everyone who doubts God hasn't done those things?

I go to church fairly regularly and read the Bible often. I've found that in doing these things, I've moved further from Christianity, not closer to it. For me at least, it seems that belief in God can't be achieved through the things you suggest... and that Mark Twain was likely right.*



* referring to his famous quote: "the best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible."

 

[Rolling_Stone]

So I ask you, what's wrong with that?

It's stupid and presumptuous.

 

[rocka21]

Why do you assume that everyone who doubts God hasn't done those things?

I go to church fairly regularly and read the Bible often. I've found that in doing these things, I've moved further from Christianity, not closer to it. For me at least, it seems that belief in God can't be achieved through the things you suggest... and that Mark Twain was likely right.*



* referring to his famous quote: "the best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible."

you are right. Not every chruch is the same.

but sorry you feel that way. i say , keep searching.......