How To Handle A Traffic Stop

[oldbadger]

If you want links for the following, just ask.
K9s have a high false positive rate of drug detection
for several reasons. They're reliability is akin to
flipping a coin.
- Handlers give cues to the K9 to "alert", ie, the "Clever Hans Effect"
- Over half of our bills have trace amounts of drugs.
- K9s are made less reliable by roadside distractions.
- Cops mis-read cues by the K9, ie, a non-alert is seen as an alert.
- K9s are trained to alert for substances that are now legal, eg, marijuana.

You, a moderately intelligent fellow, might ask why cops
would use such an unreliable method to detect drugs.
- Cops like to go fishing, ie, to search a car to see what
illegalities they can find.
- Unless the driver gives permission, they need a warrant
to search the car.
- But a K9 search of the exterior is legal. If it alerts to
legal or illegal drugs, or to money, then this is probable
cause to thoroughly search the car.
- If cops find money, they get to keep it under civil
forfeiture, which is a tool that Biden championed.
No due process is required. To find money is by
itself justification to keep it.

Because K9 searches are so unreliable, the winds
of change are in the air regarding it justifying a
warrantless search.

And again.......
Where our police find large amounts of cash in a vehicle and the owner cannot explain it, then it will be seized and held unless the owner can explain it.

 

[Revoltingest]

That might be true where you are, but my friend trains dogs for various duties, explosives, drugs, money detection specialities and general security, prison duties. He doesn't do general police dogs.

But you are way off if you think sniffer dogs get it badly wrong.

Have you done any searches for research on this?
I'd reviewed a few prior to making my claim.
Let's look at one....
Federal Court Says That It's OK If a Drug Dog Is Just as Accurate as a Coin-Flip - ATTN:
Excerpted....
Even if a drug-sniffing dog is wrong about what he smells almost half of the time, police and courts are still allowed to rely on that dog to trigger a constitutional search of a car. That's what the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals said this week.

Let's set aside the big question that ruling raises, ie, is it
constitutional to justify a warrantless search with a method
designed to justify it even when unwarranted.
The above claim was from a federal court, one which wields
great power of precedence. They also are the one that ruled
recording cops performing their duty is legal (ACLU v Alverez).

Your friend would be an unreliable judge of the efficacy of K9
sniffers because....
- He's only 1 person.
- He is too close to the issue, not objective, could have
Dunning Kruger & Clever Hans issues.
- He could perhaps be the best of the best, & therefore
be the one skewing the statistic from being even worse
than a coin flip.
- He might be skilled at finding drugs that are now
legal, in which cast the false positive rate will skyrocket.

From a public policy standpoint, protocols & evidence
must be examined for how they apply to the general
case, ie, all cops & all the populace.
If you need more links for support, I'll get'm. But I
recommend doing some reading on the topic.

 

[Revoltingest]

Again......our police can search with reasonable suspicion, or immediately after an arrest.
And weed is still illegal here.

The whole country is fed up with uninsured, untaxed, unlicensed, drunk or speeding drivers, and where our police take them and their motors off the roads, that's good.

Should you give cops the authority to set aside the Constitution
or whatever your law of the land is...simply because the country
is fed up with bad behavior?
If you do this, then innocent people too will might be the victim
of roadside justice, ie, judge, jury, & executioner. Cops aren't
perfect (most are bad to some degree). Mistaken identity,
errors of judgment, legal illiteracy, & bigotry all pose risks.
You'd give all cops immunity from wrongdoing...wrongdoing
of their choice.

 

[Revoltingest]

And again.......
Where our police find large amounts of cash in a vehicle and the owner cannot explain it, then it will be seized and held unless the owner can explain it.

Perhaps you've no equivalent of our 4th Amendment (security
from search & seizure) or 14th Amendment (right to due process).
Although English common law should, since it's a basis for our law.

Here we have the legal right to own & travel with cash. But thanx
largely to Joe Biden (who expanded government's powers to
imprison us & take our assets, even with no evidence of a crime),
cops can take cash, & they get to keep it. The cost to get it back
is huge (typically well over $10K), so many can't afford to.

I never thought of you as one of those law-&-order, trust-the-cops,
my-government-is-always-right, show-me-your-papers, stop'n-frisk
kind of guys. Are you really a fan of this?

 

[oldbadger]

Have you done any searches for research on this?
I'd reviewed a few prior to making my claim.
Let's look at one....
Federal Court Says That It's OK If a Drug Dog Is Just as Accurate as a Coin-Flip - ATTN:
Excerpted....
Even if a drug-sniffing dog is wrong about what he smells almost half of the time, police and courts are still allowed to rely on that dog to trigger a constitutional search of a car. That's what the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals said this week.

Let's set aside the big question that ruling raises, ie, is it
constitutional to justify a warrantless search with a method
designed to justify it even when unwarranted.
The above claim was from a federal court, one which wields
great power of precedence. They also are the one that ruled
recording cops performing their duty is legal (ACLU v Alverez).

Your friend would be an unreliable judge of the efficacy of K9
sniffers because....
- He's only 1 person.
- He is too close to the issue, not objective, could have
Dunning Kruger & Clever Hans issues.
- He could perhaps be the best of the best, & therefore
be the one skewing the statistic from being even worse
than a coin flip.
- He might be skilled at finding drugs that are now
legal, in which cast the false positive rate will skyrocket.

From a public policy standpoint, protocols & evidence
must be examined for how they apply to the general
case, ie, all cops & all the populace.
If you need more links for support, I'll get'm. But I
recommend doing some reading on the topic.

Come on.....
Grab hold of some common sense, is my suggestion.

1. What happens in your Federal Courts is nothing to do with us here.
2. Officers here use sniffer dogs to fit with many different specialities, in many different locations.
3. Certain locations give officers the right to search persons at random (airport, seaport terminals) and so sniffer dogs sitting beside a traveller do not altewr the person's rights at all.
4. Where a person has broken other laws (failing to stop etc) then sitting sniffer dogs were not the reason for holding in the first place.
5. My friend trains many types of sniffer dogs, not just drugs dogs. He has licence to train with explosives, currencies, various drugs etc......
6. I experienced person beats your personal oignorance of the subject before we start.

Dogs are as good as their:-
1. Selection.
2. Training.
3. Field Testing.
4. Ongoing Testing.
5. The operative who handles them.
I can't answer for what happens where you are.

 

[oldbadger]

Should you give cops the authority to set aside the Constitution
or whatever your law of the land is...simply because the country
is fed up with bad behavior?
If you do this, then innocent people too will might be the victim
of roadside justice, ie, judge, jury, & executioner. Cops aren't
perfect (most are bad to some degree). Mistaken identity,
errors of judgment, legal illiteracy, & bigotry all pose risks.
You'd give all cops immunity from wrongdoing...wrongdoing
of their choice.

Our Traffic Police act within the powers that are given to them. Or what scenarios did you want to review?
Our traffic police can either arrest and take (more serious) offenders in for charging/indictment or they can issue penalty notices. Offenders can choose to be heard in Magistrates or Crown Courts if they think they have a case.
Police do not judge by the roadside.

If you just tax, test, insure and drive your vehicle within your highway code you won't have too much trouble.

 

[Revoltingest]

Come on.....
Grab hold of some common sense, is my suggestion.

What a coincidence...I was thinking of suggesting the
same thing for you. One should consider the potential
consequences of what one wants.

1. What happens in your Federal Courts is nothing to do with us here.

Duh.

2. Officers here use sniffer dogs to fit with many different specialities, in many different locations.

Is this true for roadside searches?
K9s specialize here too, but the context is a traffic stop.

3. Certain locations give officers the right to search persons at random (airport, seaport terminals) and so sniffer dogs sitting beside a traveller do not altewr the person's rights at all.

The context is traffic stops, not border enforcement or airlines.

4. Where a person has broken other laws (failing to stop etc) then sitting sniffer dogs were not the reason for holding in the first place.

But the stop is a pretext for K9 searches.

5. My friend trains many types of sniffer dogs, not just drugs dogs. He has licence to train with explosives, currencies, various drugs etc......

His personal experience doesn't trump
research involving many cases.

6. I experienced person beats your personal oignorance of the subject before we start.

Your experience doesn't beat research & court rulings.
After all, you're just an ex-security guard in a back water
country. That's not expertise.

Dogs are as good as their:-
1. Selection.
2. Training.
3. Field Testing.
4. Ongoing Testing.
5. The operative who handles them.
I can't answer for what happens where you are.

I like all the links to evidence you've offered.
Oh...wait....we have only claims that you have
"experience" & a "friend" who trains dogs.

 

[Revoltingest]

Our Traffic Police act within the powers that are given to them. Or what scenarios did you want to review?
Our traffic police can either arrest and take (more serious) offenders in for charging/indictment or they can issue penalty notices. Offenders can choose to be heard in Magistrates or Crown Courts if they think they have a case.
Police do not judge by the roadside.

If you just tax, test, insure and drive your vehicle within your highway code you won't have too much trouble.

I've no objection to any of that.
But note that our cops very often seize more power than
is legally granted to them. I'll wager that yours do to, but
you're simply unaware of it because you & most people
comply with wrongful orders (unaware they're wrongful).

You (as do I) play the game to avoid bad interactions.
Rights being violated by cops is much more an issue for
people who don't know the game, or have traits making
them more vulnerable to abuse, eg, black, poor, holding
cash, impolitic, auditor, young.

 

[oldbadger]

Perhaps you've no equivalent of our 4th Amendment (security
from search & seizure) or 14th Amendment (right to due process).
Although English common law should, since it's a basis for our law.

Recent laws (2005) have extended many more rights and freedoms to suspects than ever before.

Here we have the legal right to own & travel with cash. But thanx
largely to Joe Biden (who expanded government's powers to
imprison us & take our assets, even with no evidence of a crime),
cops can take cash, & they get to keep it. The cost to get it back
is huge (typically well over $10K), so many can't afford to.

If you want to take your life savings for a ride out then off you go, but in the UK it would be best if you can explain where it came from. Fat cat and crime money laundering, proceeds of crimes, and street drug dealers are less safe here now.

I never thought of you as one of those law-&-order, trust-the-cops,
my-government-is-always-right, show-me-your-papers, stop'n-frisk
kind of guys. Are you really a fan of this?

That looks like a really twisted rant from an anarchy freak.

Wait till you get smashed in to by an uninsured moronic car-thief who legs it and leaves you with the bills. We'll hear another story then, I expect.

 

[Revoltingest]

And again.......
Where our police find large amounts of cash in a vehicle and the owner cannot explain it, then it will be seized and held unless the owner can explain it.

Over here, the owner's explanation can be taken into
account, but is very often ignored. After all, when cops
get to keep the cash they take, there's strong incentive
to pretend that all cash as ill gotten.

 

[oldbadger]

What a coincidence...I was thinking of suggesting the
same thing for you. One should consider the potential
consequences of what one wants.

Duh.

Is this true for roadside searches?
K9s specialize here too, but the context is a traffic stop.

The context is traffic stops, not border enforcement or airlines.

I never worked as a security guard......... I wrote training courses for store detectives, test purchasing ops and retail investigators foir several national retailers. Catching thieves three dayts a week wasn't securitry guard work....... guards are for detering if possible.

Now. I'm so glad that you've confirmed that this subject is only about traffic.

Our police don't auto search any vehicles with dogs without a previous suspicion or knowledge..... such as smelling drugs, knowledge of a vehicle's history, etc.

They do carry out roadside checks but with ANPR and Speed Cam systems, stopping only those who trigger these, or U turn on approach, or drive erratically.

Reading junk is just cluttering your mind. You need to look in to this more closely.

 

[Revoltingest]

Recent laws (2005) have extended many more rights and freedoms to suspects than ever before.

What's your opinion of this...good or bad public policy?

If you want to take your life savings for a ride out then off you go, but in the UK it would be best if you can explain where it came from. Fat cat and crime money laundering, proceeds of crimes, and street drug dealers are less safe here now.

Over here, tis best to avoid carrying cash because of
the risk it'll be confiscated, good explanation or not.
Cops will even make deals, ie, you can keep some
if you decline to sue for it all.
So if you ever travel here with cash, keep your head
down. That's my approach, because I'll carry large
amounts for dealing in antique engines.
At a show, with people you don't know, checks aren't
reliable. But cash talks...eloquently.

That looks like a really twisted rant from an anarchy freak.

Well, you sound like one of those government-knows-best
cops-are-saints-&-heroes roadside-justice uber patriots.
(This is fun.)

Wait till you get smashed in to by an uninsured moronic car-thief who legs it and leaves you with the bills. We'll hear another story then, I expect.

I've been injured by an uninsured unlicensed motorist.
But enforcing traffic laws needn't mean allowing cops
to violate the Constitution & other laws. They can &
should do their job legally.

 

[oldbadger]

Over here, the owner's explanation can be taken into
account, but is very often ignored. After all, when cops
get to keep the cash they take, there's strong incentive
to pretend that all cash as ill gotten.

Let's see that then!
You tell me you've read up enough to know better than a 56 yr old life-time dog training specialist, so just show me exactly where you've read about cops stealing money which they seized. Cases please.

 

[Revoltingest]

I never worked as a security guard......... I wrote training courses for store detectives, test purchasing ops and retail investigators foir several national retailers. Catching thieves three dayts a week wasn't securitry guard work....... guards are for detering if possible.

Those who can...do.
Those who can't....teach.

Now. I'm so glad that you've confirmed that this subject is only about traffic.

Did you read the OP?
That's always a good place to start in a
thread...if you want to know what it's about.

Our police don't auto search any vehicles with dogs without a previous suspicion or knowledge..... such as smelling drugs, knowledge of a vehicle's history, etc.

I wonder if they're the height of perfection that you portray?
Either way, we've problems here with that. They must be
considered & addressed.

They do carry out roadside checks but with ANPR and Speed Cam systems, stopping only those who trigger these, or U turn on approach, or drive erratically.

We're both fine with traffic stops that are both legal & useful.
Although many infractions shouldn't result in a stop, eg,
eg, expired tags. Limiting such interactions saves time &
money for all, & is safer for both civilians & cops. Notice
by mail is appropriate.

Reading junk is just cluttering your mind. You need to look in to this more closely.

Not reading anything is perhaps your problem.
(Gosh, this is fun.)

 

[oldbadger]

What's your opinion of this...good or bad public policy?

Shop thieves can no longer be arrested by citizens, shop-keepers etc unless they have stolen an indictable value of goods (about £80 in most counties). So far the system is turning a blind eye when shop owners are right, but if they ever make a mistake they'll be toast.
All arrestable offences (bar one) in the UK have been redacted since 2005.
Only Indictable offences can be arrested by citizens.

.............but the bad guys don't seem to know.......

Over here, tis best to avoid carrying cash because of
the risk it'll be confiscated, good explanation or not.
Cops will even make deals, ie, you can keep some
if you decline to sue for it all.
So if you ever travel here with cash, keep your head
down. That's my approach, because I'll carry large
amounts for dealing in antique engines.
At a show, with people you don't know, checks aren't
reliable. But cash talks...eloquently.

That reads like you live in Kenya.

Well, you sound like one of those government-knows-best
cops-are-saints-&-heroes uber patriots. (This is fun.)

You sound like a text-book expert.

I've been injured by an uninsured unlicensed motorist.
But enforcing traffic laws needn't mean allowing cops
to violate the Constitution & other laws. They can &
should do their job legally.

What your cops get up to is something I can't comment upon, apart from the fact that they've been shooting and murdering quite a lot of black people.

We have had a dreadful incident here (a rape murder) but generally our police are as honest about their jobs as other folks in theirs.

 

[oldbadger]

Those who can...do.
Those who can't....teach.

Now why do you think that all those retailers chose me to write their courses, make their films, train their staff?

 

[oldbadger]

Those who can...do.

Not reading anything is perhaps your problem.
(Gosh, this is fun.)

I'm waiting for all those proven cases of cops stealing seized money.

 

[Revoltingest]

Let's see that then!
You tell me you've read up enough to know better than a 56 yr old life-time dog training specialist, so just show me exactly where you've read about cops stealing money which they seized. Cases please.

I've no way to verify that your friend is expert at his job
or just a Dunning Kruger poster boy. So instead, I'll put
more trust in multiple studies about K9 efficacy I've read.
You want individual cases. There are many,
but you might claim they're unusual. The problem
is so large, so I recommend perusing threads here
about civil forfeiture.
Civil Forfeiture as part of a larger trend
Cops Took More Property From Americans Than Burglars Did Last Year
Civil Forfeiture (This is mainly for people outside of the United States of Oceania)
Supreme Court delivers a blow to asset forfeiture.
Policing For Profit
After 20 Years of Failure, Kill the TSA

 

[Revoltingest]

Now why do you think that all those retailers chose me to write their courses, make their films, train their staff?

Because you're pretty.
Seriously, you cannot claim to be right just because you've
trained store security guards. Argument from authority
should at least depend upon expertise in the matter.
Yet you've not claimed to be involved in any related research.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm waiting for all those proven cases of cops stealing seized money.

Goodness...it's already been 5 minutes, & you carp about having to wait.
You really believe that this doesn't happen?
Strong faith in cops & government you have.
See post #58 for threads with much info & many cases listed.