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How the Internet May Have Helped Turn an Obscure, Seldom-Seen Fallacy of Logic into a Fire Storm

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
About a week ago, the noble and esteemed @YmirGF asked me, "Why did the straw man argument become so popular?"

I confess I was instantly skeptical that the straw man was anymore popular these days than it had always been. After all, it seems a safe bet we humans have been misrepresenting each other's arguments ever since the days the first propositional calculus was just a gleam in Aristotle's eyes.

And yet...and yet it turns out Ymir was onto something.

As it happens, there is a form of the straw man argument that is these days spreading across the world faster than adolescent's zippers come down on prom night. That fallacy is now called the "nutpicker".

The first time the nutpicker was ever publicly noticed.

The nutpicker is also sometimes called "Drum's Law", after the political commentator -- Kevin Drum -- who on August 10, 2006, published in the Washington Monthly an email he'd received from someone who is to this day anonymous -- all we know is that they were a "he".

Whoever that anonymous person was, he appears to be the first person in history to notice the rising popularity of an especially wicked fallacy of logic that was -- at the time -- so obscure it did not yet have a name, let alone a mention in any textbooks.

The anonymous person described the fallacy to Drum as "cherry picking crazy comments" by a "wackjob" or two, and then claiming the comments represented the mainstream opinions of "liberals" in order to discredit all liberals. He then asked Drum and his readers to come up with a name for the fallacy so that -- by naming it -- people could be made more aware of it.

In response, Drum quickly organized a brief, overnight contest to name the "new" fallacy, which he described as "...the moronic practice of trawling through open comment threads in order to find a few wackjobs who can be held up as evidence that liberals are nuts." Drum made the anonymous person who had first written to him about the fallacy the judge of the contest to name it.

The anonymous person soon announced that the contest winner was someone by the name of "BlueMan", and that "nutpicker" was the winning name.

Tragically, history records that neither the anonymous person, nor BlueMan, got so much as a T-shirt for their efforts. If you wish to weep now at the gross injustice of their fate, that would be alright.

The true form of the fallacy.

Although the nutpicker was originally identified as a fallacious attack on liberals, logic does not pick sides. If the nutpicker is a fallacy of logic -- and it indeed is one -- then it does not matter even one bit who it attacks. Logically, if it is a fallacy when used against one group, it's a fallacy when used against any group. Logic is impartial.

The form of the nutpicker is this: Pick out the nuttiest member(s) of a group, then claim they (or their nutty views) are typical or representative members (or views) of the group in order to discredit the group as a whole.

The fallacy's relation to other fallacies.

It seems the nutpicker is a devil's brew or combination of at least three other fallacies.

First, it relies on cherry picking -- the fallacy of selectively picking out from a body of information only that information that confirms your position. In the case of the nutpicker, the nutjobs (and their nutty views) are cherry picked from the whole of the group they belong to.

Second, it relies on the ad hominem -- the fallacy of making an irrelevant attack on a person or group in order to discredit their position. In this case, the attack is irrelevant because the nutters do not represent the whole group.

Last, it relies on the fallacy of composition -- the fallacy of falsely ascribing some characteristic or trait of a small part of something to the whole of it. In this case, the views of the nutters are falsely claimed to be the views of the whole group to which they belong.​

For those among us who are real nerds, the nutpicker has been classified by at least one logician as a special case of the weak man fallacy, which itself is a special case of the straw man fallacy, which is one of the fallacies of relevance, which are a category of informal fallacies. No doubt there are other ways to classify it too.

The relation of the nutpicker to the internet:

Some scholars blame the internet for the rapid growth of nutpicking. They point out that search engines make it easy to find quotes by obscure nutcases that can then be misrepresented as the mainstream views of one group or another. Before the internet, it wasn't as easy to find qualified nutters to quote.

In fact, the fallacy was so obscure before the net that -- so far as I've been able to find out -- it wasn't even mentioned in any pre-internet textbooks on logic. Not even in Charles Hamblin’s 1970 book, Fallacies, which examined over 200 fallacies of logic.

So there you have it. For a bit more on nutpicking (as if you aren't bored enough already) see this post: Ask Me Anything About Logical Fallacies! (Help Out a Decrepit Old Man!)

Questions? Comments?
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
well, I think you entirely wrong, and I'm off to do so careful winnowing of various unrelated sources to gather quotations to demonstrate that all you logicians are just nutters...
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I've not heard the term 'nutpicking' before and probably would not have defaulted to thinking this would be the definition.

Thanks!
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
About a week ago, the noble and esteemed @YmirGF asked me, "Why did the straw man argument become so popular?"

I confess I was instantly skeptical that the straw man was anymore popular these days than it had always been. After all, it seems a safe bet we humans have been misrepresenting each other's arguments ever since the days the first propositional calculus was just a gleam in Aristotle's eyes.

And yet...and yet it turns out Ymir was onto something.

As it happens, there is a form of the straw man argument that is these days spreading across the world faster than adolescent's zippers come down on prom night. That fallacy is now called the "nutpicker".

The first time the nutpicker was ever publicly noticed.

The nutpicker is also sometimes called "Drum's Law", after the political commentator -- Kevin Drum -- who on August 10, 2006, published in the Washington Monthly an email he'd received from someone who is to this day anonymous -- all we know is that they were a "he".

Whoever that anonymous person was, he appears to be the first person in history to notice the rising popularity of an especially wicked fallacy of logic that was -- at the time -- so obscure it did not yet have a name, let alone a mention in any textbooks.

The anonymous person described the fallacy to Drum as "cherry picking crazy comments" by a "wackjob" or two, and then claiming the comments represented the mainstream opinions of "liberals" in order to discredit all liberals. He then asked Drum and his readers to come up with a name for the fallacy so that -- by naming it -- people could be made more aware of it.

In response, Drum quickly organized a brief, overnight contest to name the "new" fallacy, which he described as "...the moronic practice of trawling through open comment threads in order to find a few wackjobs who can be held up as evidence that liberals are nuts." Drum made the anonymous person who had first written to him about the fallacy the judge of the contest to name it.

The anonymous person soon announced that the contest winner was someone by the name of "BlueMan", and that "nutpicker" was the winning name.

Tragically, history records that neither the anonymous person, nor BlueMan, got so much as a T-shirt for their efforts. If you wish to weep now at the gross injustice of their fate, that would be alright.

The true form of the fallacy.

Although the nutpicker was originally identified as a fallacious attack on liberals, logic does not pick sides. If the nutpicker is a fallacy of logic -- and it indeed is one -- then it does not matter even one bit who it attacks. Logically, if it is a fallacy when used against one group, it's a fallacy when used against any group. Logic is impartial.

The form of the nutpicker is this: Pick out the nuttiest member(s) of a group, then claim they (or their nutty views) are typical or representative members (or views) of the group in order to discredit the group as a whole.

The fallacy's relation to other fallacies.

It seems the nutpicker is a devil's brew or combination of at least three other fallacies.

First, it relies on cherry picking -- the fallacy of selectively picking out from a body of information only that information that confirms your position. In the case of the nutpicker, the nutjobs (and their nutty views) are cherry picked from the whole of the group they belong to.

Second, it relies on the ad hominem -- the fallacy of making an irrelevant attack on a person or group in order to discredit their position. In this case, the attack is irrelevant because the nutters do not represent the whole group.

Last, it relies on the fallacy of composition -- the fallacy of falsely ascribing some characteristic or trait of a small part of something to the whole of it. In this case, the views of the nutters are falsely claimed to be the views of the whole group to which they belong.​

For those among us who are real nerds, the nutpicker has been classified as a special case of the weak man fallacy, which itself is a special case of the straw man fallacy, which is one of the fallacies of relevance, which are informal fallacies.

The relation of the nutpicker to the internet:

Some scholars blame the internet for the rapid growth of nutpicking. They point out that search engines make it easy to find quotes by obscure nutcases that can then be misrepresented as the mainstream views of one group or another. Before the internet, it wasn't as easy to find qualified nutters to quote.

In fact, the fallacy was so obscure before the net that -- so far as I've been able to find out -- it wasn't even mentioned in any pre-internet textbooks on logic. Not even in Charles Hamblin’s 1970 book, Fallacies, which examined over 200 fallacies of logic.

So there you have it. For a bit more on nutpicking (as if you aren't bored enough already) see this post: Ask Me Anything About Logical Fallacies! (Help Out a Decrepit Old Man!)

Questions? Comments?
Oh my continual complaint here about ID and creationism as cherry picked by atheists always.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh my continual complaint here about ID and creationism as cherry picked by atheists always.

This thread is about nut picking, not cherry picking...lol

Question is, when people disparage ID, are they targetting theists, or proponents of ID?

If the former, then it's nutpicking. If the latter, it's not.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This thread is about nut picking, not cherry picking...lol

Indeed it is, and thanks for pointing that out!

Question is, when people disparage ID, are they targetting theists, or proponents of ID?

If the former, then it's nutpicking. If the latter, it's not.

I think I might understand what you're saying, but I'm not entirely sure. Can you rephrase it? Please? Pretty please?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
The form of the nutpicker is this: Pick out the nuttiest member(s) of a group, then claim they (or their nutty views) are typical or representative members (or views) of the group in order to discredit the group as a whole.
Yeah seems common, but not just because of the internet.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I have noticed it in politically-loaded discussions fairly often.

I think that to a considerable extent it is unconscious, spontaneous, and driven by an instinctual attempt to characterize people with unconfortable proposals and ideas as unworthy of one's time and attention.

Paying attention to people that we disagree with is delicate, often taxing work. A necessary and legitimate part of it is being critical of the validity of what we learn, and of course it is only natural for the more oddball parts to be particularly noticeable and easy to remember.

It seems to me that expressing this fallacy may often be a well meaning if perhaps unskilled attempt at reestablishing trust in communications. An attempt at confirming the credentials of the speakers for the "other side", so to speak.

Of course, other times it is not nearly as innocent a mistake. It may also be a fully pathological behavior for some people, perhaps more phobic than malicious in nature even.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Everyone knows that it was Bill O'Rielly that made nut-picking an acceptable (though false) argument, along side his other famously acceptable (though false) argument: He who shouts loudest and uses the most words in the shortest time frame wins the argument. He was repeatedly inviting the Rev. Al Sharpton on his show and presenting him to the world as the spokesperson for ALL liberals, ALL democrats, ALL black people, and ALL "phony" Christians (O'Rielly imagining himself to be the spokesperson for all REAL Christians, of course).

Though I suppose it could be argued that Rush Limbaugh did the media "nut-picker" even before Bill O'Rielly did. But I think who did it first isn't really what matters. What matters is that "the right" (whomever they are) really seemed to like the "logic" of it. It seemed to make a lot of sense to them, for some reason (it justifies their bigotry, perhaps?).

Here on RF we see it being employed more often among self-avowed atheist, who routinely hold up the most absurd and irrational theist's and their behaviors and beliefs as representing not only all Christianity, or Islam, but all theists of all religions throughout all time. And they seem to like this "logic" very much, because I have noticed that there is virtually no possibility of changing their minds about the absolute truth of their conclusion.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
About a week ago, the noble and esteemed @YmirGF asked me, "Why did the straw man argument become so popular?"

I confess I was instantly skeptical that the straw man was anymore popular these days than it had always been. After all, it seems a safe bet we humans have been misrepresenting each other's arguments ever since the days the first propositional calculus was just a gleam in Aristotle's eyes.

And yet...and yet it turns out Ymir was onto something.

As it happens, there is a form of the straw man argument that is these days spreading across the world faster than adolescent's zippers come down on prom night. That fallacy is now called the "nutpicker".

The first time the nutpicker was ever publicly noticed.

The nutpicker is also sometimes called "Drum's Law", after the political commentator -- Kevin Drum -- who on August 10, 2006, published in the Washington Monthly an email he'd received from someone who is to this day anonymous -- all we know is that they were a "he".

Whoever that anonymous person was, he appears to be the first person in history to notice the rising popularity of an especially wicked fallacy of logic that was -- at the time -- so obscure it did not yet have a name, let alone a mention in any textbooks.

The anonymous person described the fallacy to Drum as "cherry picking crazy comments" by a "wackjob" or two, and then claiming the comments represented the mainstream opinions of "liberals" in order to discredit all liberals. He then asked Drum and his readers to come up with a name for the fallacy so that -- by naming it -- people could be made more aware of it.

In response, Drum quickly organized a brief, overnight contest to name the "new" fallacy, which he described as "...the moronic practice of trawling through open comment threads in order to find a few wackjobs who can be held up as evidence that liberals are nuts." Drum made the anonymous person who had first written to him about the fallacy the judge of the contest to name it.

The anonymous person soon announced that the contest winner was someone by the name of "BlueMan", and that "nutpicker" was the winning name.

Tragically, history records that neither the anonymous person, nor BlueMan, got so much as a T-shirt for their efforts. If you wish to weep now at the gross injustice of their fate, that would be alright.

The true form of the fallacy.

Although the nutpicker was originally identified as a fallacious attack on liberals, logic does not pick sides. If the nutpicker is a fallacy of logic -- and it indeed is one -- then it does not matter even one bit who it attacks. Logically, if it is a fallacy when used against one group, it's a fallacy when used against any group. Logic is impartial.

The form of the nutpicker is this: Pick out the nuttiest member(s) of a group, then claim they (or their nutty views) are typical or representative members (or views) of the group in order to discredit the group as a whole.

The fallacy's relation to other fallacies.

It seems the nutpicker is a devil's brew or combination of at least three other fallacies.

First, it relies on cherry picking -- the fallacy of selectively picking out from a body of information only that information that confirms your position. In the case of the nutpicker, the nutjobs (and their nutty views) are cherry picked from the whole of the group they belong to.

Second, it relies on the ad hominem -- the fallacy of making an irrelevant attack on a person or group in order to discredit their position. In this case, the attack is irrelevant because the nutters do not represent the whole group.

Last, it relies on the fallacy of composition -- the fallacy of falsely ascribing some characteristic or trait of a small part of something to the whole of it. In this case, the views of the nutters are falsely claimed to be the views of the whole group to which they belong.​

For those among us who are real nerds, the nutpicker has been classified by at least one logician as a special case of the weak man fallacy, which itself is a special case of the straw man fallacy, which is one of the fallacies of relevance, which are a category of informal fallacies. No doubt there are other ways to classify it too.

The relation of the nutpicker to the internet:

Some scholars blame the internet for the rapid growth of nutpicking. They point out that search engines make it easy to find quotes by obscure nutcases that can then be misrepresented as the mainstream views of one group or another. Before the internet, it wasn't as easy to find qualified nutters to quote.

In fact, the fallacy was so obscure before the net that -- so far as I've been able to find out -- it wasn't even mentioned in any pre-internet textbooks on logic. Not even in Charles Hamblin’s 1970 book, Fallacies, which examined over 200 fallacies of logic.

So there you have it. For a bit more on nutpicking (as if you aren't bored enough already) see this post: Ask Me Anything About Logical Fallacies! (Help Out a Decrepit Old Man!)

Questions? Comments?
I don't know that extrapolating from extremist outliers to poison a larger well is anythin new, exactly, althoigh the rise of internet tribal bubbles has probably made it more wide spread. Back around 2000, when I lived in a small town with only one radio station that played music in the afternoon, but demagougic talk radio in the morning, I actually called in to the talk show to criticise the host for this exact type of thing, after he dismissed the entire environmental movement because "they hold up billion dollar developments to protect some species of, I don't know, an endangered worm no one cares about?" I remember his comment still, it was so ridiculous, yet he had about ten callers before me call in to dogpile on environmentalists based on his comment.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Everyone knows that it was Bill O'Rielly that made nut-picking an acceptable (though false) argument, along side his other famously acceptable (though false) argument: He who shouts loudest and uses the most words in the shortest time frame wins the argument. He was repeatedly inviting the Rev. Al Sharpton on his show and presenting him to the world as the spokesperson for ALL liberals, ALL democrats, ALL black people, and ALL "phony" Christians (O'Rielly imagining himself to be the spokesperson for all REAL Christians, of course).

Though I suppose it could be argued that Rush Limbaugh did the media "nut-picker" even before Bill O'Rielly did. But I think who did it first isn't really what matters. What matters is that "the right" (whomever they are) really seemed to like the "logic" of it. It seemed to make a lot of sense to them, for some reason (it justifies their bigotry, perhaps?).

Here on RF we see it being employed more often among self-avowed atheist, who routinely hold up the most absurd and irrational theist's and their behaviors and beliefs as representing not only all Christianity, or Islam, but all theists of all religions throughout all time. And they seem to like this "logic" very much, because I have noticed that there is virtually no possibility of changing their minds about the absolute truth of their conclusion.
I see it plenty here used against ALL liberals, atheists, socialists, immigrants, Muslims and feminists, too. (Plenty of otherplaces, as well, but not JUST theists get it here, is my point.)
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I'm curious what other reasons you think there might be for why the fallacy is so common today?
I don't know if it's particularly more common now, it's just that what passes for an intellectual these days isn't much. What the fallacy is, it's an indicator of polarization and mental laziness.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I don't know that extrapolating from extremist outliers to poison a larger well is anythin new, exactly, althoigh the rise of internet tribal bubbles has probably made it more wide spread. Back around 2000, when I lived in a small town with only one radio station that played music in the afternoon, but demagougic talk radio in the morning, I actually called in to the talk show to criticise the host for this exact type of thing, after he dismissed the entire environmental movement because "they hold up billion dollar developments to protect some species of, I don't know, an endangered worm no one cares about?" I remember his comment still, it was so ridiculous, yet he had about ten callers before me call in to dogpile on environmentalists based on his comment.

That's fascinating, KF. Thanks for sharing that!

Although there's no mention that I can find of the fallacy as a distinct fallacy before the internet (or actually, before Drum's article) I firmly believe it's been around at least ever since God was a graduate student studying how to create his first universe.

The only thing I would really argue is that search engines have made the fallacy much, much easier to commit.

Beyond that I strongly suspect those folks who who say it's spreading across the internet faster than McDonald's can suck the nutritants out of hamburger meat are right. But I only suspect they're right. I haven't seen any real studies on its spread -- and I doubt there will ever be any.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I think I might understand what you're saying, but I'm not entirely sure. Can you rephrase it? Please? Pretty please?

Yup, but its not controversial. Trust me!!

All I meant was that atheists showing ID quotes Is only 'nut-picking' if they're using those quotes as 'Examples of crazy crap theists say' or similar.

If they're showing ID quotes which are representative of ID beliefs, and using them to make an argument about ID, that's not nut-picking. It's simply an example.

It sounded like @David T was suggesting atheists are nut-picking when they quote ID proponents. It strikes me that the claim is ENTIRELY contextual.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Here on RF we see it being employed more often among self-avowed atheist, who routinely hold up the most absurd and irrational theist's and their behaviors and beliefs as representing not only all Christianity, or Islam, but all theists of all religions throughout all time. And they seem to like this "logic" very much, because I have noticed that there is virtually no possibility of changing their minds about the absolute truth of their conclusion.

This was supposed to be ironic, right?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Yup, but its not controversial. Trust me!!

All I meant was that atheists showing ID quotes Is only 'nut-picking' if they're using those quotes as 'Examples of crazy crap theists say' or similar.

If they're showing ID quotes which are representative of ID beliefs, and using them to make an argument about ID, that's not nut-picking. It's simply an example.

It sounded like @David T was suggesting atheists are nut-picking when they quote ID proponents. It strikes me that the claim is ENTIRELY contextual.
That's a fair point. Although, I am now wondering who came up with the label "intelligent design". As it would logically have included a lot of ideas far beyond what it now is being used by both sides to represent.
 
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