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Featured How the Gospels were written,Christianity was started

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Aug 12, 2018.

  1. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    Before you accuse others of being clueless, you may want to make darn well sure you have understood what you're replying to. I said mythicism, not mysticism.
     
  2. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Oh so sorry. . Thats a rarity for me here. Now i have never ever even seen that term i like it!!!!!
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    How I see this @Riders...
    Here we have people trying to prove something they can never prove, or should I say disprove something they can never disprove - something that by the end of the day, still comes down to human opinion, that can be debated indefinitely.
    While Christian go on living their lives and finding that their lives are more meaningful than if they did not live by Bible standards.

    For example, millions testify that while former school mates, work mates, and other acquaintances are living miserable lives - whether they be drug addicts, pimps, and prostitutes, bums, criminals, suicidal, plagued with serious family problems, etc. etc., or dead due to living a reckless and purposeless life - those living by Bible standards are enjoying the opposite.
    Even those who are not Christians praise those whom they observe are allowing their lives to be guided by Bible standards.
    Government officials, Police officers, Teachers, Stadium officials, Hotel Clerks, etc., praise the conduct and work of Christians who live by Bible standards.

    The question is why? Why does living by Bible standards produce such good effects?
    I think the answer is clear, even though it is debated. However, whatever the opinions, millions still think the Bible contains wisdom far superior to any wisdom this world has to offer. They will still think that Bible standards are vastly superior to the low standards in this world.

    So why the issue with the Bible? What is the problem?
    I think the evidence is clear.

    If the Bible were not the word of God, it would not meet with such fierce opposition.
    Moreover, because its chief enemy is Satan the Devil, it will continue to be attacked by those Satan uses to go up against its author - Jehovah God.
    This is nothing more than an ongoing war that started way back in the beginning of human history - when the Devil opposed truth, righteousness, and God's way.

    However, if we are going by opinion, I think it is fair that we don't side with one, simply because it fits our ideas, or preference.
    I believe it is reasonable that we should examine all the evidence from both sides of the argument, rather than hold on to any biased opinions.

    Did Jesus Really Exist? (Please consider all the evidence presented)
    Excerpts
    Michael Grant, a historian and an expert on ancient classical civilization, noted: “If we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.”

    Rudolf Bultmann, a professor of New Testament studies, stated: “The doubt as to whether Jesus really existed is unfounded and not worth refutation. No sane person can doubt that Jesus stands as founder behind the historical movement whose first distinct stage is represented by the oldest Palestinian community [of Christians].”

    Will Durant, a historian, writer, and philosopher, wrote: “That a few simple men [the Gospel writers] should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”

    Albert Einstein, a German-born Jewish physicist, asserted: “I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.” When asked if he viewed Jesus as a historical person, he responded: “Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.”

    TACITUS
    (c. 56-120 C.E., or Common Era) Tacitus is considered to be one of the greatest of the ancient Roman historians. His Annals deal with the Roman Empire from 14 C.E. to 68 C.E. (Jesus died in 33 C.E.) Tacitus wrote that when a great fire devastated Rome in 64 C.E., Emperor Nero was considered responsible. But Tacitus wrote that Nero accused the Christians in order to “scotch the rumour.” Then Tacitus said: “Christus, the founder of the name [Christian], had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus.” — Annals, XV, 44.

    SUETONIUS
    (c. 69–a. 122 C.E.) In his Lives of the Caesars, this Roman historian recorded events during the reigns of the first 11 Roman emperors. The section on Claudius refers to turmoil among the Jews in Rome that was likely caused by disputes over Jesus. (Acts 18:2) Suetonius wrote: “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christus], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.” (The Deified Claudius, XXV, 4) Although wrongly accusing Jesus of creating disturbances, Suetonius did not doubt his existence.

    PLINY THE YOUNGER
    (c. 61-113 C.E.) This Roman author and administrator in Bithynia (modern Turkey) wrote to Roman Emperor Trajan about how to deal with the Christians in that province. Pliny said that he tried to force Christians to recant, executing any who refused to do so. He explained: “Those who . . . repeated after me an invocation to the [pagan] Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image . . . and who finally cursed Christ . . . , I thought it proper to discharge.” - Pliny - Letters, Book X, XCVI.

    FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
    (c. 37-100 C.E.) This Jewish priest and historian states that Annas, a Jewish high priest who continued to wield political influence, “convened the judges of the Sanhedrin [the Jewish high court] and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.” — Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200.

    THE TALMUD
    This collection of Jewish rabbinic writings, dating from the third to the sixth centuries C.E., shows that even Jesus’ enemies affirmed his existence. One passage says that on “the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] the Nazarean was hanged,” which is historically correct. (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a, Munich Codex; see John 19:14-16.) Another states: “May we produce no son or pupil who disgraces himself in public like the Nazarene” - a title often applied to Jesus. - Babylonian Talmud, Berakoth 17b, footnote, Munich Codex; see Luke 18:37.

    EVIDENCE FROM THE BIBLE
    Luke 3:1, 2
    Luke wrote: “In the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod was district ruler of Galilee, Philip his brother was district ruler of the country of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was district ruler of Abilene, in the days of chief priest Annas and of Caiaphas, God’s declaration came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness.” This detailed, precise list enables us to establish that “God’s declaration came to John” in the year 29 C.E.

    The seven public figures Luke names are well-known to historians. That said, for a time certain critics did question the existence of Pontius Pilate and Lysanias. But the critics spoke too soon. Ancient inscriptions bearing the names of those two officials have been discovered, confirming Luke’s accuracy.

    Nero
    Tacitus wrote that Nero accused Christians of starting the fire to remove suspicion from himself. According to this account, many Christians were arrested and brutally executed by "being thrown to the beasts, crucified, and being burned alive".

    Non-Christian historian Tacitus describes Nero extensively torturing and executing Christians after the fire of 64. Suetonius also mentions Nero punishing Christians, though he does so because they are "given to a new and mischievous superstition" and does not connect it with the fire.

    Christian writer Tertullian (c. 155–230) was the first to call Nero the first persecutor of Christians. He wrote, "Examine your records. There you will find that Nero was the first that persecuted this doctrine". Lactantius (c. 240–320) also said that Nero "first persecuted the servants of God". as does Sulpicius Severus. However, Suetonius writes that, "since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, the [emperor Claudius] expelled them from Rome" ("Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit"). These expelled "Jews" may have been early Christians, although Suetonius is not explicit. Nor is the Bible explicit, calling Aquila of Pontus and his wife, Priscilla, both expelled from Italy at the time, "Jews".

    There seems to be overwhelming evidence that Jesus the Christ/Messiah existed.

    Edit.
    Wait. Did I miss the point of the OP...I'm sorry. I listened to about 20 minutes of the video, and might have gotten side tracked. I hope I didn't stray too far.
     
    #23 nPeace, Aug 14, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
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  4. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    acquaintances are living miserable lives - whether they be drug addicts, pimps, and prostitutes, bums, criminals, suicidal, plagued with serious family problems, etc. etc., or dead due to living a reckless and purposeless life - those living by Bible standards are enjoying the opposite.


    Listen everything you said about sin and drugs are not true. I was raised in ALcoholics Annonymous, until I was 12 my Moter was a Sunday School teacher at the Baptist church and guzzled a 12 pack of beer down everyday. She use to have mountains of cans and boxes me and my sisters would have to lean up after her and many bad things came because of her addiction. My Mom was a perfectionistic Christian at church and she dropped out of church because the church did not do her any good.

    BTW the drug problems and alchohol problem is so so bad the meth problem and heroin problem is so bad that its a national crisis. In Texas I have been to Narcotics Anonymous and AA of late and most drug addicts especially in Tx are Christian.


    Theres a huge amount of drug and alcohol addiction with Conservative Christians are you kidding me is this a joke? You must be joking!Porn and prostitution? Well our servicemen at war are having themselves prostitution, did you see the special on the news about the college in Tx, and they are Christians too, the football coach hired out prostitutes to give to the young men free if they would get on his team, a reward for being recruited to his team?

    Do you know that I am a recovering sex addict? Do you know how many conservative Christian men I have had sex with OMG?

    One guy who had phone sex with me and we sent porn to each other he was a recovering sex addict in SAA. I met him at a face to face meeting and this is why I no longer go to face to face SAA meetings.I met a guy Richard, he thought I was cute got my phone number.

    Called me at home,he started talking about the bible, he was in the baptist church. He was showing me scripture that backed up the big book of AA and flipping thought he bible preaching at me

    Anyways after he settled down some figured Id be hanging up soon and there it was he came onto me not me him. He said and this reminded me of what drug dealers say" You know you've got headaches from with drawel you feel like crap let me take care of it for you Ill take care of you and make you feel better". Evil, just plain evil talking about my addiction.
     
  5. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    He was mentally ill, I liked his cute Texas accent though.Anyways you must be very naive its unbelievable. Maybe I need to start a new thread for Christians on sin?
     
  6. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    So and me and that guy who was shoving scripture down my throat had phone sex for 2 days and sent porn back and forth to each other, whoosh, he was cute too. Nut told me later about his mental health issues.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I know this.
    That is why I was careful and deliberate about not saying "Christian".
    If you noticed, I said, repeatedly, "those who live by Bible standards", or "Christians who live by Bible standards".
    Unfortunately "Christian" did slip through once... :oops: but there a a difference between the use of the term "Christian" today, and its use in times past - the first century, more precisely.

    The world uses "Christian" to apply to anyone any professes to believe in Jesus - that includes prostitutes, and people living all manner of debauch lifestyles.
    That's not what Christian means. A Christian - rightly defined - is one who follows Jesus Christ's example (way of life), and teachings. Such a person lives by the principles and standards set down in the Bible.

    Christian
    A Christian is a person who follows or adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. "Christian" derives from the Koine Greek word Christós, a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term mashiach (Biblical Hebrew).

    I do agree with you that most "Christians" live their lives not according to the Bible, but any way they please. It's a shame really, imo. :(
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That sounds interesting.
    I hope my post helps you to understand what a Christian is. The link comes from Wikipedia.
    So if you do, I hope you do bear that in mind.
     
  9. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    That does not cut it. its the same thing as just saying those are not true Christians. MISS I don't know your real name but I know of thousands upon thousands of recovering alcoholics and drug addicts including my mother who will tell you that they ere living very strictly to the bible standards just like my Mom did. Religions and biblical living has nothing to do with addiction.

    There are many who were raised with the same idea you have those living Godly structured biblical lives don't become drug addicts and did live Godly biblical lives and became drug addicts an alcoholics!

    Its not a biblical or religious issue, those of us who are addicted have spiritual issues with God and have to work on our personal relationship with our higher power.

    In the 12 Steps we use the Higher power term because there are non Christians atheists who claim the group as their higher power,I've known 3 Native Americans in their own Native American religion;

    I've known Scientologists, Muslims and Jewish folks all kinds from different religions who stay in their own religion and have their own higher power and never get into the bible and stay sober their whole life.

    There are many non Christians who been sober after getting into recovery stayed sober their whole rest of their lives. Religion and the bible has nothing to with it.

    Some drug addicts and alcoholics like my Mom were work alcoholics very perfectionism in their manners my Mom was a bible believing we had bible class Wednessday nights and Sundays. My Mom worked 10 hours a day at Honeywell on the assembly line and came home guzzled bear.

    That guy I told you about he goes to church and reads his bible all the time.

    Any addiction specialist and 12 Step program will tell you addiction has nothing to do with religion or living right. Nothing.

    There's a lot of conservative Christians who are now in church as well as AA who will back me up their lack of religion did not get them into addiction.
     
  10. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Addiction is cause din part by can be in part by ,trauma, I am an over eater, but losing weight now and sex and love addict, I was sexually molested at age 15 when I was in psych wards.
    I have bipolar, and sometimes mental illness is also a part of it or can be too, I had to live in psych wards , That's what the psychiatric profession did in the 80s.

    I tried to beat up a staff member the tied me down in restraints for 3 months got me up in the morning into a wheelchair. A man named Grady he was 31 and over me at night the night staff.

    He put me on the commode helped me get dressed and would pick me up put me in my chair brush my hair for me, and called me baby.

    I think at night after he gave me psychedelic drugs he did some stuff with me while I was tied up. he use to talk to me like he was my boyfriend.

    After that when I went to Timberlawn teen psych ward from there it was better nut me and 2 guy friends use to fool around with each other a lot I had girlfriend named Chris she was my roommate. But
     
  11. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    she little tiny weighed 85 pounds had been on drugs at age 13 she was so young 13 so i took care of her she was like my family. But a lot of guys liked her because she was so cute and young and she got into trouble a lot.

    So when we had dances with the guys dorm, I would take Chris and we shared the same boyfriends, I took her with me. So I learned to cope with life this way.

    Sex and love is very like comfort like food is comforting. So the whole thing is none of that living righteous and being Godly and biblical living had didlley doodle to do with being an addict. If it did AA would be Christianized and send everyone to church and that would solve the problem.
     
  12. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Its odd some have asked me if your not Christian how can you stand to have sex with a conservative Christian,In my Moms words Hells bells! A man is a man hey he was cute.
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Some people don't know the real reason they fall down.

    May I ask? How well would you say you know the Bible?
    Would it surprise you to know that a greater majority of people who profess Christianity do not know their Bible?
    Do you know if you ask them to find Habakkuk in the Bible, some of them would look at you like o_O Huh?

    How could one be a Christian and not know the Bible, when making a dedication to God, and being baptized means 1. Having a knowledge of the Bible and understanding its teachings. 2. Repenting from sin - dead works. 3. Turning around - turning away from those works. 4. Making a dedication to God, to do his will, and live by his standards. 5. Getting baptized - making it public that you no longer live for / belong to yourself, but you live for / belong to God and his Christ. Matthew 28:19, 20

    If this were easy, then most of those who profess Christianity would have no problem... but it isn't easy.
    It takes real effort to live by God's standards.
    I believe where we fall down most of the time is because we are naturally lazy. We don't like to exert ourselves - unless of course, it is for selfish reasons - Don't you agree with me? :)

    Another major problem - the scriptures show - lies with those who appoint themselves as preachers. Now think of a lazy preacher who is selfish.... Get the picture? A bad combination - one who doesn't care as much about understanding and teaching God's word, as much as he cares about robbing and cheating the flock out of their hard earned cash.
    Don't you agree this is what we see?

    That's why those who go to church end up in the sad state they do. I don't believe it's entirely their fault, but it's the failing of the church - ruled by greedy leaders. Jeremiah 23; Matthew 7:13-23

    All this is written in scriptures. If you know your scriptures well you would know what I am saying.

    I wish your mother well.
    What is your opinion... Do you think the Bible can help addicts... even if part of that help came from AA?
     
    #33 nPeace, Aug 14, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Do you mind if I ask... Do you believe our behaviors, and personality is largely shaped by our parents?
     
  15. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    It can help some people because faith and religlon whatever religion you come from, as I said there are other religions in 12 step groups, but any of the religious activities be it the bible or the Torrah or the Quaran or the Bhagavad Gita yes religion plays a role.

    Statistics show that anytime people who are addicted take part in prayer and in religious activities and join a religion have a better chance the statistics will go up that they will stay sober.

    I am hoping myself to start attending Gnostic Course next month.There are some Christian halfway houses that claim up to 40 percent success. So some Christians claim that they have better success, or their halfway houses do.

    I do not have an opinion on that, make it into what you want. My personal belief is that any religion will make your stats go up.

    That's just my opinion its all it is.I did not mean to upset you with all this. I was going to try and not debate religions so much this year and maybe I should not have put the thread up.

    That being said let me make the best statement I can about this whole thread.

    I do not believe their is proof Jesus ever lived and I do believe the videos and books like this video that points to Pagans who created Christianity most likely.
    However all that being said I also don't believe historical proof or scientific proof is needed in order to believe. Faith is what counts, if you have faith in your religious beliefs even without proof then that's ok, faith is what counts.

    In other words I did not mean to make Christians out to look bad at all, I think Christian faith is fine, it does work for some people.

    As I said there are halfway houses that are Christian who claim 40 percent that are clean and sober. So if it works for you then its good, I am rest assured there is not any proof Gnostics held more proof either, its weather or not it works for me. Do I have faith do I have a personal relationship with God in the end that's what counts not the proof.
     
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  16. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Yes the bible says the sins of your Fathers are visited on you and there is some good wisdom in the bible no doubt. Although we never knew my Grandfather he was most likely was a sex addict.

    He use to take my Grandma and she use to tell me about it, he took her to wife swapping parties and claimed he as there to witness for Jesus. Although my grandmother probably was witnessing we know what my grandfather was doing, he had a bad reputation with women.
     
    #36 Riders, Aug 14, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Wiki is ok, but it isn’t real reliable from a scholarly standpoint. We were not allowed to use it as an internet resource in seminary, due to its unreliability. It’s usually ok for social media like this, but when others come at you with bona fide scholars, you’ll need to step up your game.
     
  18. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    While I have seen others use Wiki I use mainly the video. The video makes sense to me. To me its self explanatory but go ahead and put Seminary qoute or whatever you want up here.

    The video says their was a lot of military wars going on new testament days Jews against Romans,

    If you study the bible itself there does seem to be many references to Rome and Ceaser and war like behavior, the spiritual warfare it speaks about,

    it does seem to paint a picture of Rome as the original creator of the new Testament. However I would like to do some studying of Rome history myself .

    Then I can put up higher quality qouts.
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I am glad you created the thread.
    I don't think you should regret creating it just because you meet opposition.

    I learn a lot from debating opposing views that I have never met before. It allows me to learn of the various arguments people raise, and it helps me to do research on new things. That way, I think I am more equipped to discuss a wider range of topics.
    So see your posts as an experience, and welcome challenges.

    I like your optimism in your conclusion.
     
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I agree it has its imperfections - like most everything.
    I use it as it seems to be the most preferred research tool.
     
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