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How the chickens learned the need to sit on it's eggs ?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by FearGod, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    How the evolutionist explain how the chicken acquired the knowledge that it needs to sit on the eggs for fertilizing ?

    Does knowledge also acquired by random mutation and natural selection.
     
  2. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame New Member

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    That's like asking how humans acquired the knowledge to breathe, chew or swallow. There's a difference between "knowledge" and "instinct". Knowledge is not a hereditary trait, instinct can be.
     
  3. Skwim

    Skwim Well-Known Member

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    Whaaaaaat????
     
  4. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    Then who drives them to sit on the eggs for the survival of their species.

    The creator or the unconscious nature
     
  5. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame New Member

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    Why do you assume it has to be a who? Why can it not simply be an instinctive desire inherent in the animal's brain? Is that so hard to find credible that you have to invent a magical being to explain it? Why is the existence of an all-powerful being more credible than the existence of basic instinctual response?
     
  6. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey Staff Member Premium Member

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    I think what he's asking is: where did this instinct come from? How did it develop?

    I think those are reasonable questions.
     
  7. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    Yes exactly Quagmire,thank you for clarifying my question.
     
  8. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man.

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    I go with the latter in light that there is nothing obvious showing it as the handiwork of a creator. The source of the instinct that we are aware of lies with it's brain.

    Chickens don't seem to respond in a manner that suggests acknowledgement of being taught in light that they just do it outright.

    That is after the days of T-Rex.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  9. Reptillian

    Reptillian Hamburgler Extraordinaire

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    Alright! So here is an hypothesis...suppose that like the world was totally warm in the past (which it was) and creatures didn't need to sit on their eggs to hatch them. Also suppose that evolution via natural selection is true (a stretch of the creationist imagination, I know) and that environment has slowly changed with time to the cold "ice agey" one that we all know and love while creatures have adapted to fit that environment. Now I see two possible outcomes. Either creatures adapt their behavior to hatch their eggs, or adapt to "hatch their eggs" internally and give live birth. What do we see in the world? Both strategies! Now we can either test this hypothesis via experiment and observation; or use prayer, divination, and witchcraft to conjure up a magic spell that will give us some insight....hmm...which approach should I take more seriously?...hmm...Experimental observation, or Trolls and magic spells? Tough choice indeed!
     
  10. Iti oj

    Iti oj guru of the new rf Staff Member Premium Member

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    Well not all egg layers sit on their eggs. Those have large clutches with small hatch rates with even smaller living to adults. At some point a random mutation had an egg layer sit on incubate and protect the eggs. This increased the ammound that hatched survived and reproduced, do to increase in survival it became a norm and passed on. ..thus chickens sit on eggs
     
    Terrywoodenpic likes this.
  11. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey Staff Member Premium Member

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    The question in my mind though is this: what could have motivated the first "egg-sitters" to sit on their eggs in the first place? It's not like some lizard-like pre-bird had a sudden flash of insight and said to herself, "Hey! the world's colder than it used to be! If I want my brood to hatch I better sit on those suckers!".

    I mean, I can understand how the instinct would have developed from there, but it must have began with creatures who didn't actually have it, right?.
     
  12. fantome profane

    fantome profane quintessence of dust

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    They need to sit somewhere. It is really not that strange. They would lay their eggs in a place they felt safe. They would likey return and spend time in that place. If these animals understood the importance of their eggs and offspring they would have has some attachment to them.

    So the initial act of sitting on the egg could be seen as somewhat random animal behaviour, but I can see how it could happen. And once it happened it would provide a survival advantage that could be acted upon by natural selection.
     
  13. Iti oj

    Iti oj guru of the new rf Staff Member Premium Member

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    Quag I feel I adressed that in my post its the last post on the previous page based upon my settings.
     
  14. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey Staff Member Premium Member

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    So basically, at some point an egg layer was born with a random mutation that caused it to want to sit on it's eggs?
     
  15. Iti oj

    Iti oj guru of the new rf Staff Member Premium Member

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    That would make the most amount of sense and creates a good starting point, after that initial "desire" it became much more common place do to its success rate. Though I can think of other variable that might have brought it about. Like laying eggs in. Zone with high food yeild and no need to leave. But that seems more of a strech on the mechanics,
     
  16. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey Staff Member Premium Member

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    OK, that much makes sense.

    How would they understand something like that? :shrug:

    As far as I understand any of this, a bird's attachment to it's young is purely instinctual. What I'm asking is what could have motivated the creatures to take that first step towards the behaviors that played in the development of those instincts.

    I understand the instinct to sit in a safe place, and like I said it makes sense that creatures would want to lay their eggs in a safe place, and it's no stretch to assume that they would develop the habit of using the same places for both things, but IMO none of this helps to explain the development of parental instincts.

    That part I get.
     
  17. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey Staff Member Premium Member

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    Well, I have to admit, even though I believe in evolution, the idea of something as handy as an urge to sit on one's eggs just suddenly appearing as a random quirk of mutation seems at least as "magical" and as any other explanation. :D
     
    Shermana likes this.
  18. apophenia

    apophenia Well-Known Member

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    Evolution does not imply that creatures think changes through.

    Perhaps before the hypothetical climate change, some sat on their eggs and some didn't. Perhaps the sitting was part of a protective behavior which had already evolved in some of the chicken population. If the climate then became very cold, it would mean that those with that tendency to sit on their eggs were successful in reproducing, and those who didn't died out. The ones which sat on their eggs did not 'make the connection' regarding cold weather.

    That is the proposed mechanism as I understand it. Evolution is not purposeful. Nothing 'wanted to survive', nothing 'made plans'.

    So you're right - no creature had an insight. The prevailing conditions selected those with existing behaviors which worked.
     
  19. apophenia

    apophenia Well-Known Member

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    I took my time over editing and talking on the phone - you already answered quagmire.
     
  20. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey Staff Member Premium Member

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    Yes, I know that. Hence the "it's not like" in my question.
     
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