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How Socialist...

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Nakosis, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Dearest, I do not understand why these three are not considered suitable. Care to explain?
    :);)
     
  2. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    I think the OP is an American. For some of them socialism is anything not sanctioned by Ayn Rand.
     
    #22 Secret Chief, Oct 27, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  3. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I think corporations and utilities shouldn't be controlled by a centralized government, but managed by the workforce and the affected communities, respectively.

    Other than that, sure, let's go all the way.
     
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  4. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Libertarian, but yes, borders are not commonly a thing socialists care particularly much about; with that said, a common Marxist slogan is "workers of the world, unite!" so there is a certain degree of international solidarity baked into Marxist socialism from the get go (although of course individual stances on that part varied wildly throughout history in different places, and continue to vary wildly).
     
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  5. mangalavara

    mangalavara Verified Account ✔
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    I understand. The American media has helped drill that into our heads. I'm one of the possibly rare Americans who knows the actual ideological differences between socialism and capitalism, and I also know that capitalism is not another term for market economy. The definitions of these things are in dictionaries and Wikipedia articles. I wish more people would look these terms up instead of just believing what someone with an agenda tells them.
     
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  6. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Dictionaries are written by Communists (and possibly not Americans at that). :D
     
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  7. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Ahh that makes sense
     
  8. mangalavara

    mangalavara Verified Account ✔
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    Are you implying that Samuel Johnson believed workers of the world ought to unite?
     
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  9. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Socialism and Communism are two different things.
    Communism is Marxist philosophy.
    Socialism was born before Marx.
    The very first socialist parties were in Germany, and in Italy, SPD and Partito Socialista Italiano.
    They were created in the 19th century.

    Decades before the Russian Revolution.
     
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  10. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    It is a good idea. Ownership is irrelevant when there is the control of workforce's trade unions or associations.
    The control of the State is essential in my opinion.

    Free enterprise is not compromised if the State owns banks, enterprises, factories, highways, railways, flight companies, dockyards etc...

    There are resources for everyone. Unless capitalists want it all...as if they were playing monopoly as spoiled kids do.
     
    #30 Estro Felino, Oct 27, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  11. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Hmmmm...we seem of accord on this.
    I didn't see that coming...
     
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  12. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    In Europe socialism has evolved to include capitalism, or elements of it.
    The list you give is more akin to Communism

    In the UK we have many of those, although the current Government is trying to scrap some of them.

    We have Free Education, Free Healthcare, a National Minimum Wage.
    We have subsidised housing for the unemployed, unemployable
    Since we left the EU the borders are no longer open - however numbers of migrants and refugees is increasing
    We do not have guaranteed employment
    We sold our utilities off under Thatcher in the 80s and 90s - a big mistake
    The government does not 'control' corporations, but we have regulations to which they have to abide.
     
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  13. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think we need to think in terms of two economies. One based on meeting human needs in a modern, complex, inter-connected society, and the other based on allowing for individual talents, commitment, and desires.

    If providing for everyone's needs eliminates freedom of choice, I think it defeats it's own purpose, as we humans need to be more than just alive, to live. On the other hand if in the name of freedom of choice we are consigning millions of very talented, worthy humans to a life of economic servitude and slavery, then that freedom of choice has become a totem for oppression and enslavement which is certainly NOT freedom of choice for a great many of us. So we need to find a way to provide everyone with the basics so they can then seek to fulfill their best selves, and thereby contribute their best to the society as a whole.

    And it seems to me to do that we are going to have to stop pretending that the necessities of survival in our society are free market commodities. Because they are not. Yet at the same time, we need to leave available to people the opportunity to pursue their individual desires through the medium of a free marketplace. So in the end we really need two different economies. One based on collectively providing for the basic needs of survival in a modern society, and the other allowing for free and open competition of ideas and talents beyond that.

    The trick is figuring out a form of governance that would set, protect, and enable those basic priorities. Democracy alone will not do it. And neither will an authoritarian dictatorship. I think the ultimate authority has to be a kind of written prime directive, rather than any body of humans, and then some sort of representational functionaries put in place to see to it that the prime directive is carried out.
     
    #33 PureX, Oct 27, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  14. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yeah, I like that you are honest. It is about what you like. I like differently, now what?
     
  15. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Yes, I am aware that communism is a form of socialism. :)
     
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  16. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I mean...I disagree entirely that welfare provides free education, healthcare, housing, or a UBI?
    How do you figure they do?
     
  17. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Those three things are essential, in my humble opinion. :)
    Not wanting them is a rightist position.
    Not a leftist one.
    With all due respect.
     
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  18. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    This has nothing to do with socialism but it breaks my heart to learn that so many people here are against open borders. I feel very empty suddenly.
     
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  19. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I don't really see them as 'socialist' in any traditional sense either. But I think the OP was really more meaning social welfare.
     
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  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    It wasn't socialism that "crashed" Greece or Venezuela.
    Isn't a big, controlling government the opposite of socialism? It sounds more like totalitarianism.
     
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