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How Socialist...

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Nakosis, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    [​IMG]
    How Socialist are you willing to go?

    Free education
    Free healthcare
    UBI
    Free housing for the needy
    Open borders
    Guaranteed employment
    Government owned utilities
    Government control of corporations

    (Sorry not a socialist so add or remove what you feel appropriate)

    What changes would need to be implemented to make you happy with how government is being run?
     
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  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Free education
    Free healthcare
    UBI
    Free housing for the needy
    Open borders
    Guaranteed employment
    Government owned utilities
    Government control of corporations
     
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  3. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    On that list all the way down to free housing (that is, not including open borders but including free housing).
     
    #3 Lain, Oct 26, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  4. mangalavara

    mangalavara Verified Account ✔
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    What does any of this have to do with the public or state ownership of the means of production?
     
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  5. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

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    Free education - education up to the level that the citizen can succeed. I.e. - if s/he is failing, then s/he is done.

    Free healthcare - duh.

    UBI - Universal Basic Income? - Sure. Just enough to stay alive. You don’t get to pick what you eat, You are given the food (and it ain’t haute cuisine). You can choose to not eat it….but then you’ll starve. :shrug:

    Free housing for the needy - again. Enough to stay alive. I wouldn’t call it “housing”. Just shelter to keep warm and dry. With cold water plumbing to maintain sanitation.

    Open borders - WTH? o_O This has nothing to do with socialism.

    Guaranteed employment - Yeah. Make them work for their benefits. FDR-style federal work (and education) programs. You go where the labor is needed. No choices.

    Government owned utilities - Regulation, not ownership.

    Government control of corporations - Government regulated, but not controlled.


    What changes would need to be implemented to make you happy with how government is being run? - Not that these changes really have anything to do with socialism….but….Intelligence and knowledge testing passed with high grades before a candidate can run. Severe term limits. All “donations” out of politics…(only tax funding and required air time for campaigns). Politician salaries and benefits determine by mean income and benefits of their constituents (staff, travel expenses for work, etc….are taken care of. You cannot use your own money.), Plus other things…..
     
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  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    The last 2 items relate to government control of the means
    of production. The others are just social welfare programs.
     
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  7. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Not sure what Open Boarders has to do with Socialism. Sounds like an Anarchist thing but don’t quote me on that.

    Free Education, housing and healthcare absolutely. I’ve seen what happens when such things are run by capitalists
    No thank you.
    Though if someone wants some more luxuries for their accommodation then I suppose that’s up to them to negotiate/figure out.
    As for the rest, I don’t think those are socialist ideas either so I dunno
     
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  8. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Almost got it where I am; could be a good idea to push the final way.
    Already got it, but would like free dental care too.



    Sure, they all seem like good ideas.

    I live in Canada and think we could probably increase our immigration cap from 500 000 immigrants per year to 650 000 without too much problem. Could do more for refugees too. Not special opposition with free trade with other developed country but I don't like the idea of "pillaging'' the natural resources of impoverished ones through unfair deals; much of Canada's mining company practices in Mongolia and central Asia are poor and those in Eastern Africa are often downright murderously criminal sadly.

    Not sure how it would work.

    Already got government owned electricity, water services and garbage disposal. It would not be a bad idea for the gov to offer a bare bone, but super cheap telecom plan too. It's the 21st century afterall.

    If by control you mean strong regulation; then I am all for it.

    (Sorry not a socialist so add or remove what you feel appropriate)

    End of first pass the goal election and replace it with proportional voting scheme.
     
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  9. Suave

    Suave Simulated character

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    I'd like U.S. federal government spending and taxes to be implemented as follows:

    1. Universal health insurance could affordably be implemented at tax-payer expense if there were also insured cost sharing of 40 percent co-insurance to the insured for covered Medicare expenses including prescription drug expenses. The government paying 60 percent of all U.S. residents' Medicare approved health care would cost tax-payers approximately 2.2 trillion dollars in the fiscal year 2024. Upgraded coverage insuring 80 percent of the insured's Medicare approved expenses and prescription drug costs could be purchased at cost by the insured at an annual premium price of ca. $2,000.

    2. Universal health insurance in the U.S could be funded as follows: this being funded in large part by over half the revenues collected from personal income taxes (est. $1.05 trillion), in part by a ten percent value-added-tax less less monthly rebates of $180 to each U.S. resident age 18 or over, this would net approximately $550 billion of revenue in the year 2024; Universal health care also being funded in part by an increase in the corporate income tax rate from 21 percent to 25 percent resulting in corporations paying U.S. corporate income taxes of nearly 450 billion dollars in 2024,, and also Universal health insurance being funded in small part by alcohol, cannabis and tobacco excise taxes generating ca. $80 billion of funding towards U.S. Universal Health insurance in year 2024.

    3. Social security spending of $1.3 trillion in 2024 would be funded in large part by the status-quo system of payroll taxes, this would generate $1.1 trillion during 2024. This $200 billion annual shortfall of funding to social security by payroll taxes would be covered by the withdrawal of excess funds in the social security trust fund.

    4. U.S. military and veteran support spending of a 950 billion dollars in 2024 could then be funded with nearly half the revenue from the following simplified income tax system, just a few income tax brackets beginning in year 2024, zero percent on the initial $20,000 of personal individual annual income, 18 percent on $20,001 to $60,000 of personal individual annual income, 29.8 percent on individual personal annual earnings in excess of $60,000., and a 3 percent surcharge tax on an wealthy individual's earned income per year in excess of $5,000,000. Capital gains taxed at same rate as ordinary income. No tax credits, save for a refundable $2,000 child tax credit as well as a $3,000 refundable tax credit for each adult American legal resident. In 2024, this would result in total personal federal income taxes amounting to an estimated two trillion dollars source of annual federal revenue..

    5.. The imposition of financial transaction taxes ( remittance taxes and stock/bond trade taxes) generating ca. $200 billion, the implementation of tariffs resulting in ca. $100 billion of revenue in 2024 and federal estate taxes generating an additional ca. $35 billion in revenue would mostly fund spending for the following federal agencies:: ( est. $63 billion ) spending on the Department of Agriculture, ( est. $46 billion) to the State Department, ( est. $42 billion ) towards Housing and Urban Development, ( est. $33 billion ), by the Department of Energy, ( est. $30 billion ) to the Department of Justice, ( est. $26 billion) for N.A.S.A., ( est. 24 billion ) into the Department of Treasury, (est. $23 billion ) towards the Department of Interior, ( est. $14 billion ) by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, ( est. $10 billion ) for the Department of Commerce, ( est. $10 billion ) by the Department of Labor, ( est. $9 billion ) for the Environmental Protection Agency, and ( est. $5 billion ) for the Food and Drug Administration.

    6. The implementation of excise taxes on railways, fuel, airports and aviation collectively adding up to $160 billion, would fund the Department of Transportation and Homeland Security.

    7. Approved federal spending in 2024 at an estimated $2.2 trillion for universal health care ( U.H.I. ) $1.3 trillion for Social Security, ( no change from status-quo on S.S. retirement benefits ), an estimated 950 billion dollars towards the military and veteran services or veteran benefits, $480 billion on debt interest payments, ( est. $63 billion ) spending on the Department of Agriculture, ( est. $46 billion) to the State Department, ( est. $42 billion ) towards Housing and Urban Development, ( est. $33 billion ), by the Department of Energy, ( est. $30 billion ) to the Department of Justice, ( est. $26 billion) for N.A.S.A., ( est. $24 billion ) into the Department of Treasury, (est. $23 billion ) towards the Department of Interior, ( est. $14 billion ) by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, ( est. $10 billion ) for the Department of Commerce, ( est. $10 billion ) by the Department of Labor, ( est. $9 billion ) for the Environmental Protection Agency, and ( est. $5 billion ) for the Food and Drug Administration. ( est. $50 billion) for the Department of Homeland Security, ( est. $110 billion) for the Department of Transportation; the above proposed federal spending resulting in total federal annual spending to be ca. $5.425 trillion..

    8. The above approved fiscal year 2024 federal spending being at $5.425 trillion and $4,675 trillion of tax revenue would result in a federal deficit of ca. $750 billion for Fiscal Year 2024.
     
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  10. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I don't think open borders would have anything to do with socialism, unless one is talking about a world-wide socialist society. That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
     
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  11. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    It exists
    Free education- welfare provides that
    Free healthcare- welfare provides that
    Free housing- welfare provides that
    UBI- some on welfare do better than those working
    Free groceries- welfare provides that
     
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  12. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Funny how conservatives are complaining about Biden not keeping gas prices down. Or inflation in general.
     
  13. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Actually there are federal and international laws that require nations to allow people seeking asylum. It's not as if an administration can just close the borders, unless there is a reason, like the pandemic.
     
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  14. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    Free education- Yes

    Free healthcare- Yes

    UBI- Maybe

    universal basic income is tricky as it is more a way to fix capitalism’s response to automation, which might increase unemployment as automation replaces labour in the production process. If you have guaranteed employment and a range of social services, the need for UBI is alot less.

    Free housing for the needy- Yes

    Open borders- Maybe, possibly No

    Immigration is more a liberal policy than a socialist one, especially as providing a cheap supply of foreign labour feeds a capitalist economy to keep wages down. Centralised planning often means centralised control of the “labour supply”, which is why a command economy may not need additional labour resources from immigration. Hence the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain through Eastern Europe as a restriction on free movement.

    Guaranteed employment- Yes

    Government owned utilities- Yes

    Government control of corporations- Maybe

    it gets down to whether state ownership and centralised planning are more effective than a market economy. Historically, there is no denying that the performance of Soviet style command economies is not great, unless its related to defence or heavy industry. But I’d absolutely support some nationalisation. I’m just not sure its a model for every industry or sector.
     
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  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Free education -- A good investment. Increases revenue ( the post-war G-I bill returned a 700% profit after 20 years -- just from increased tax revenue). Decreases crime. Decreases need for social services once scholars establish themselves.
    Free healthcare -- A basic benefit of social living. Much less expensive and more easily regulated and monitored if publically owned. Promotes security and peace of mind, and quality of life.
    UBI -- Could be useful. Probably not needed universally, in a well-run society. Not a basic component of socialism,
    Free housing for the needy -- Free permanent housing? Only for the needy? Free free? Might be divisive if not carefully managed. Maybe "guaranteed" housing would be a better approach, with rent determined by income.
    Open borders -- Not directly related to socialism.
    Guaranteed employment -- Might be useful, for the employable. Depends how it's organized.
    Government owned utilities -- You mean common ownership? By the people? Yes. utilities are part of the commons, which are best publicly 'owned'.
    Government control of corporations -- No! This is totalitarianism, not Socialism. Socialism would be corporations as worker owned and run co-ops.

    Socialism is Democracy, it's government of, by and for The People.
     
    #15 Valjean, Oct 26, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  16. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Might as well go for it. Itvwill be a huge free-for-all party and by the time it all bottoms out and crashes like Greece or Venezuela, hopefully I will be dead by then.
     
  17. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    I like the way its worded by the people.

    Real meaning?

    The people = Big controlling Government.
     
  18. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    To a community where unreasonable wealth and unreasonable poverty are ended.

    Free education
    Free healthcare
    Free housing for the needy[/.QUOTE]
    Yes. Paid for with funds from (mostly) Income, inheritance and purchase taxation....

    Government owned services..... Yes.
    YOu will believe in those, I reckon, Nakosis.

    Oh you would be, I reckon, if you were weakened, disabled, sick, without funds, cold, homeless etc.
    You would be..... :D

    I don't think that you really would agree with State schools closed down, State run Hospitals ended, Millions living under tenting and corrugated iron, etc...... think about it.
     
  19. Suave

    Suave Simulated character

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    China seems to be very prosperous with their economic system of state-owned enterprises. For example, China developed a nation-wide maglev rail system at less than a third of the cost to implement such a high speed rail system in the U.S. I would not be too overly concerned about the U.S. level of government debt, because interest rates are now so historically low. Also, I suppose the U.S. government might be able to inflate its way out of high debt. Fortunately for me, I had very well invested much of my economic stimulus and enhanced unemployment C.O.V.I.D.-19 economic relief aid benefits in bitcoin as a hedge against U.S. inflation..
     
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  20. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I am both Socialist and Conservative, meaning that I am for the closed borders policy...
    But I am for:

    1) Free education
    2) Affordable University
    3) Single-payer Free Healthcare*
    4) Free housing for the needy
    5) Guaranteed employment
    6) Compensation for unwilling unemployment and/or UBI
    7) Strict measures against at-will contracts
    8) Forbidding employers from laying off without just cause
    9) Government owned enterprises, corporations, but only in the strategic sectors: power, water supply, posts, highways, railways.
    10) National Bank owned by the State


    * Present in UK, Scandinavia, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Australia, Canada.
     
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