How Should I Keep the Sabbath?

[Mr. Beebe]

I would like you to answer those questions, first, if you are willing.

I would love to have a conversation with you, but I do not think it would be profitable for either of us, if we do not agree with the basics. If you believe the wicked live forever,,,then there is no sense in me answering any of those questions.

It seems that you believe God has given "worms" eternal life as well. So,, I am not interested in untangling the confusion that enters in when we choose to believe lies and form doctrines around erroneous beliefs.

So, my point is,,if we have the wrong answer in one clue of a crossword puzzle,, the puzzle cannot be completed with accuracy.

That is why, I will not address your objections. I'm seeing clues that you somehow may believe that the wicked live forever, that the soul is immortal,, that eternal fire, burns without ever ending. If you believe those things,,then I think those items should be addressed before we form our doctrines around the false believe that the soul is immortal and that eternal fire burns forever.

 

[glori]

I would love to have a conversation with you, but I do not think it would be profitable for either of us, if we do not agree with the basics. If you believe the wicked live forever,,,then there is no sense in me answering any of those questions.

It seems that you believe God has given "worms" eternal life as well. So,, I am not interested in untangling the confusion that enters in when we choose to believe lies and form doctrines around erroneous beliefs.

So, my point is,,if we have the wrong answer in one clue of a crossword puzzle,, the puzzle cannot be completed with accuracy.

That is why, I will not address your objections. I'm seeing clues that you somehow may believe that the wicked live forever, that the soul is immortal,, that eternal fire, burns without ever ending. If you believe those things,,then I think those items should be addressed before we form our doctrines around the false believe that the soul is immortal and that eternal fire burns forever.

 

[glori]

About Mark 9.44-46 and Isa.66.24 "Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched";

Job 17.14 "I have said to corruption, thou are my father; to the WORM. thou art my mother, and my sister";

Job 25.6 "How much less a man, that is a WORM? and the son of man that is a WORM?"

Isa.41.14 "Fear not, thou WORM Jacob, and ye men of Israel --";

Isa.42.25 "Therefore he hath poured on him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle, and it hath set him on fire found about, yet he knew it not, and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart"'

James 3.6 "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity; so is our tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and it is set on fire of hell".

Isa. 47.14 "Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them, they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it".

Isa.50.11 "Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass themselves sparks, walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand, ye shall lie down in sorrow".

Isa.33.14 "The sinner in Zion are afraid, fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire, who among us shall dwell with everlasting brunings, He that walks righteously, and speaketh uprightly, he that despiseth the gain of oppression, that shakes his hands from holdiing bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil".

James 1.21 "--receive with meekness the engrafted Word that is able to save your ("and God breathed into man's nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living") soul".

Based on these scriptures, what questions would you like to ask me?

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Based on these scriptures, what questions would you like to ask me?

You can post as many scriptures as you like,,,but it does not tell me your understanding of them. Does it? You could have answered the simple questions and that would have told me how you interpret those scriptures,, but,, it seems you would rather play a game.

I'll pass.

 

[glori]

You can post as many scriptures as you like,,,but it does not tell me your understanding of them. Does it? You could have answered the simple questions and that would have told me how you interpret those scriptures,, but,, it seems you would rather play a game.

I'll pass.

Friend, as per the thread title, Isa.58.13 "--not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words". 2 Pet.1.20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptures is of any private interpretation". That is why 2 Tim.2.15 says "study to show thyself approved unto God, -- rightly dividing the Word of truth". The Bible contains an unbroken chain of self revelation, religious doctrine based on private interpretations have kept believers from realizing that until the/this chosen generation.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

The Bible contains an unbroken chain of self revelation, religious doctrine based on private interpretations have kept believers from realizing that until the/this chosen generation.

This sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. So far, communicating with you seems,,,,far-fetched at best. Perhaps you need a period somewhere,, but,, that would be speculation on my part.

I am a 7th day Adventist. So,, I'm sure you could study that and know my beliefs. If you have a question. Ask and be specific. I will do my best to give an answer for why I believe the way I do.

 

[glori]

I once gave a presentation on the Lord's Feast of Tabernacles. But,, I think that you may be confused on the state of the dead and your belief on what happens to the wicked in the future. So,, if you don't mind, could you address the questions below, so that I can better understand your position?

The word "quench". What do you think that word actually means? If your house was on fire and the fire could not be "quenched",, do you believe that means your house will keep burning without ever going out?

Do you believe that the wages of sin are eternal life in some eternal fire?

What is your definition of "eternal fire"?

What is your definition of a "Soul"?

do you believe the Soul is Immortal?

Mr.Beebe, this is the post you wanted me to

I once gave a presentation on the Lord's Feast of Tabernacles. But,, I think that you may be confused on the state of the dead and your belief on what happens to the wicked in the future. So,, if you don't mind, could you address the questions below, so that I can better understand your position?

The word "quench". What do you think that word actually means? If your house was on fire and the fire could not be "quenched",, do you believe that means your house will keep burning without ever going out?

Do you believe that the wages of sin are eternal life in some eternal fire?

What is your definition of "eternal fire"?

What is your definition of a "Soul"?

do you believe the Soul is Immortal?

Me Beebe, since this is where the disconnect began, here is where I will take it up again.

I do not believe that the wages of sin are eternal life in some eternal fire.

Eternal fire, is not a literal fire, but the opposite of the peace that is promised to the faithful when the wrath of God is revealed from heaven.

I believe that some will inherit immortality when the Lord returns in the glory of the Father.

I believe that we are all souls, as was Adam when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

I believe that the worm that dieth not, refers to man in the mortal or reproductive state.

I believe that God's plan of salvation is so perfect, that as Rom.8.19-23 makes known, even the creature will be saved in the end".
.
...and rest assured, I am not confused about anything in scripture. They explain themselves perfectly.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Eternal fire, is not a literal fire, but the opposite of the peace that is promised to the faithful when the wrath of God is revealed from heaven.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with, "eternal fire" Says Jude 7. I believe the Bible,, all of it. We know for a fact that Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities were indeed burned up. Sulfer is still found in holes burned into the rocks. Scientists claim the heat had to be 6000 degrees.

I believe that the worm that dieth not, refers to man in the mortal or reproductive state.[/QUOTEehenna

The scripture in question is, Mark 9:43,44

In this verse, the word "hell" is translated from the Greek word "Gehenna". Gehenna is another name for the Valley of Hinnom just outside the walls of Jerusalem. That is where all the refuse and bodies of animals were thrown into a constant ever-smoldering fire. Maggots would feed on the dead flesh that would escape the fires. Gehenna symbolized a place of total destruction. Jesus taught in this verse that the fire of hell could not be quenched or put out by anyone. Isaiah said, "They shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame" Isaiah 47:14. But he also said,,, "There shall not be a coal to warm at or a fire to sit before it." So,, the unquenchable fire will go out after has finished it's work.

So, the flames and worms of Gehenna represent the total annihilation and obliteration of sin and sinners.


If you believe the Bible,, you will believe eternal fire is a real literal fire. If you don't,, then you have many, many scriptures to reject. You can start with Jude 7.

 

[glori]

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with, "eternal fire" Says Jude 7. I believe the Bible,, all of it. We know for a fact that Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities were indeed burned up. Sulfer is still found in holes burned into the rocks. Scientists claim the heat had to be 6000 degrees.

first, there is eternal evidence of the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, but it is no longer burning, so how is that eternal?

Isa.50.11 "Behold all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks. walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand, ye shall lie down in sorrow". If the fire is complete annihilation, and as Ps.146.4 says, "--in that very day his thoughts perish" how can he lie down in sorrow?

Prov.6.27 "Can a man take fire in his bosom and his clothes not be burned?

Isa.33.14-15 "--who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He who walks righteously and speaketh uprightly --"

What is Jesus referring to in Matt.11.24 "--that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for Capernaum?

You say you believe the whole bible, but I gave you three scriptures that says "man is worm", but you don't believe that. Isa.41.14, Ps.22.6, Job 17.14, 25.6.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

first, there is eternal evidence of the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, but it is no longer burning, so how is that eternal?

The fire itself is not eternal. It is the consequences of the fire that are eternal.

Isa.33.14-15 "--who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He who walks righteously and speaketh uprightly --"

This scripture is speaking of the Lord. He is the "Devouring Fire" & "Everlasting Burnings". If you examine all of verse 15 and verse 16 you will see that they are describing the Saints. And I tell you this,, the day is coming when those who refuse the Mark of the Beast will be hiding in the mountains, and the woods,,,and though they will suffer oppression and hunger and thirst,,,"Bread will be given them. His water shall be sure." Verse 16.

What is Jesus referring to in Matt.11.24 "--that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for Capernaum?

Jesus here is rebuking those Cities because of the many works that were done in those cities that they might believe.. So, greater proof and even the rejection of Jesus Himself, calls for a greater condemnation.

You say you believe the whole bible, but I gave you three scriptures that says "man is worm", but you don't believe that. Isa.41.14, Ps.22.6, Job 17.14, 25.6.

Isaiah 41:14 is using the word "worm" to describe the WEAKNESS of ISRAEL. Let's read it all:

"Fear not you worm Jacob.
You men of Israel!
I will help you ," Says the Lord
And your Redeemer, the Holy
One of Israel.

"Behold, I will make you into a
new threshing sledge with
sharp teeth;...."

So,,when the Bible uses the term "worm", it is doing so in showing the stark contrast between a Holy Righteous God and the vile wicked evil sinners that we (men) are.

 

[glori]

The fire itself is not eternal. It is the consequences of the fire that are eternal.





This scripture is speaking of the Lord. He is the "Devouring Fire" & "Everlasting Burnings". If you examine all of verse 15 and verse 16 you will see that they are describing the Saints. And I tell you this,, the day is coming when those who refuse the Mark of the Beast will be hiding in the mountains, and the woods,,,and though they will suffer oppression and hunger and thirst,,,"Bread will be given them. His water shall be sure." Verse 16.

Jesus here is rebuking those Cities because of the many works that were done in those cities that they might believe.. So, greater proof and even the rejection of Jesus Himself, calls for a greater condemnation.

Isaiah 41:14 is using the word "worm" to describe the WEAKNESS of ISRAEL. Let's read it all:

"Fear not you worm Jacob.
You men of Israel!
I will help you ," Says the Lord
And your Redeemer, the Holy
One of Israel.

"Behold, I will make you into a
new threshing sledge with
sharp teeth;...."

So,,when the Bible uses the term "worm", it is doing so in showing the stark contrast between a Holy Righteous God and the vile wicked evil sinners that we (men) are.

Matt.11.23 "And thou Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell, for if the mighty works which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have remained unto this day", the question was, what would be worse than total inhalation, because that is what Matt.11.24 is warning the readers about in "the day of judgment". It is self evident that "in the day of judgment", it will be worse than the total inhalation that the first Sodom experienced.

For you to quote the rest of Isa,41,14 does not change the fact that man is referred to as "worm", and Mark 9. is not referring to maggots in saying "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched". It is referring to, as the scripture says, "whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me", and that ties into Isa.66.23-24 "those who worship from one new moon to the other(lunar months) and from one Sabbath to the other(the weekly Sabbath not singled out), will look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against the Lord, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh".

The difference between your belief in the Bible and mine, is that my belief is based on the whole and express word of God "rightfully divided"(2 Pet.1.20, 2 Tim.2.15, 3.16-17)

."the new threshing sledge with sharp teeth"...

 

[Mr. Beebe]

."the new threshing sledge with sharp teeth"...

Well,,what is a worm? Or a Maggot? Are you so confused that you no longer know the difference between a fishing worm and a man? Do you think that little red worms are actually little human beings? You are about as confused as you can be,, You obviously do not know the difference between a symbolic worm and a human being that is marvelously and wonderfully made. You are not rightly dividing the word, and you never have. Hopefully that will change. You have your own narrative of what God's Bible says. Have a nice day.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

the men that have transgressed against the Lord, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh".

You seriously need to examine the parable that Jesus was teaching,, and examine the backdrop (Valley of Hinnom). That was the trash dump that Jesus used as a tool to show the utter destruction of the wicked thrown in hellfire.


God didn't give little worms and maggots eternal life in a trash dump!!!! The Bible also tells us that the wicked shall become ashes! See Malachi 4:1-3

 

[glori]

You seriously need to examine the parable that Jesus was teaching,, and examine the backdrop (Valley of Hinnom). That was the trash dump that Jesus used as a tool to show the utter destruction of the wicked thrown in hellfire.


God didn't give little worms and maggots eternal life in a trash dump!!!! The Bible also tells us that the wicked shall become ashes! See Malachi 4:1-3

Of course God didn't give actual worms eternal life, perhaps your lack of understanding comes from your lack of knowledge of the human body. In these mortal bodies we constantly reproduce our cells, in that, we are the same as worms, and when we die we pass our DNA on to our off spring in a continuing cycle. As far as eternal life for the wicked, defined in Isa.66.23, what do you think Isa.65.11-15 is making known? Remember that Isa.50.11 says the fire produces sorrow of heart, which Lam.3.65 affirms is God's curse.

You need to understand that the parables that Jesus spoke were to direct us back to the writings of the prophets for the full meaning, as Rev.10.7, 2 Pet.3.2 and Rom.16.26 affirm. Remember what Jesus said to Satan at his temptation "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord"; of course that excludes religious doctrine. .

 

[Mr. Beebe]

we are the same as worms, and when we die we pass our DNA on to our off spring in a continuing cycle

So,, under your theology,, we have to die in order to have children so that our DNA can somehow get to them? lol... I think we can end this conversation, right now. What a waste of time talking to you has been.

 

[glori]

So,, under your theology,, we have to die in order to have children so that our DNA can somehow get to them? lol... I think we can end this conversation, right now. What a waste of time talking to you has been.

I do not think we have to die in order to have children, that was poor wording on my part. Our DNA is passed from parents to children as we reproduce. That lives on in our children after we die. I was explaining to you how it is we are comparable to worms.

 

[shmogie]

Again,,, Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT Sabbath Observers. They observe Sunday the 1st day of the week just like the Catholic Church has Mandated.

The Church of Rome is the culprit that decided the date changes at 12:00 Midnight...........God says His days begin and end with the setting of the sun!!!

Daniel 7:25 warns us that these things would be tampered with by the Beast power (Papacy) "he shall think to change TIME & LAW.

I've told you about the changes they made to the 10 Commandments,, and now I am telling you they also changed the timing of the days. Both of these occurences were prophesized in the scripture Daniel 7:25!!!!

Mr. Beebe, having been ordained in the SDA church, and having left it for the Gospel, please allow me to correct you on a few things. First, long before the Catholic church, the Roman Empire mandated the 24 hour period beginning at midnight. Centuries before Constantine gentile churches were keeping sunday as the day of worship, note that John had his vision "on the Lords day". You will contend that that is the sabbath. The term was used in gentile churches for sunday by 100 AD, so John would have been aware of this. Since the term is used no where else in the Bible, if it was the sabbath, why didn't he just say so? Finally research the international dateline, You will find that in whole swaths of the world the weekly cycle of days was changed, and in fact, one can approach it on friday night, and cross it on saturday night, poof, no sabbath. It has all been fiddled with, and to maintain that the weekly cycle hasn't changed since creation as SDA's do is nonsense. It might be true for Israel, but for the rest of the world, no

 

[whirlingmerc]

The only use of the word holy in Genesis is when God made the Sabbath.... so that should give one pause

Glorifying God by leaning on the work of Jesus on the cross believing for eternal life is a type of the Sabbath

I think sometimes letting conscience be your guide and respecting others conscience might be a good rule. One person might not play board games or go for
walks on Sunday and others might But if one 'desires God' one should regularly set aside time to be with other believers and worship corporately should at least be part of it

When I look at the book of Romans I don't see much reference to the Sabbath except to respect other's conscience
Romans 14:5
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

 

[shmogie]

The only use of the word holy in Genesis is when God made the Sabbath.... so that should give one pause

Glorifying God by leaning on the work of Jesus on the cross believing for eternal life is a type of the Sabbath

I think sometimes letting conscience be your guide and respecting others conscience might be a good rule. One person might not play board games or go for
walks on Sunday and others might But if one 'desires God' one should regularly set aside time to be with other believers and worship corporately should at least be part of it

When I look at the book of Romans I don't see much reference to the Sabbath except to respect other's conscience
Romans 14:5
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

Yes. Further, Paul says he became all things for all people, thus he became a gentile. As a gentile I doubt he kept the sabbath. Our SDA friends will tell you Paul wasn't speaking of the weekly sabbath, but rather was talking about a "ceremonial" or "festival sabbath" in the scripture you quoted. Of course, this isn't specified, and in fact the verse stands as written. One day, because keeping it you believe is required of you by God, or you believe keeping no specific day is required of you by God.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Yes. Further, Paul says he became all things for all people, thus he became a gentile. As a gentile I doubt he kept the sabbath. Our SDA friends will tell you Paul wasn't speaking of the weekly sabbath, but rather was talking about a "ceremonial" or "festival sabbath" in the scripture you quoted. Of course, this isn't specified, and in fact the verse stands as written. One day, because keeping it you believe is required of you by God, or you believe keeping no specific day is required of you by God.

I pretty much see eye to eye with you, Christian.

As far as the perspicuity of the scriptures (the main things are the pain things and the plain things are the main things) you should be careful if you emphasize something stronger or weaker than the apostles did. And in the epistles and letters, Jesus is the greater Sabbath in Hebrews and Sabbaths are not the substance but the shadow of Christ and let no man be your judge in that regard, and no qualifier given that 'I don't mean the 6th or 7th day here' by that

One can make a case that Sunday is normative since the first communion service was on Paul long message where Euticus( lucky in Greek ) fell to his death too sleepy and was raised, the offering was taken on Sunday in corinthians, Pentecost was on Sunday.... and yet the point if not thumped in the epistles and far overshadowed by other issues
Issues like not forsaking meeting together with other believers... issues like focusing on the spirit of the law not the letter... issues like respecting the concience of your prother or sister

But setting the time issue aside, there is also the 'preisthood of believers' and so in that sense a believer should be convinced in their mind and try to maintain a good concience as they love truth and follow it as best they understand. If one has no desire to love or worship God or set aside time for Him that is a serious issue and perhaps suggests the patient is spiritually sick or even spiritually dead