How responsible is God for Satan's actions?

[Prestor John]

I agree.

Neat

Huh. But God made hell to imprison Satan there, no?

No, Hell isn’t really a prison at all and it was not made by God.

Even legion mentions a fate of torment at the day of judgement in Mark, doesn't he (maybe not exactly, but he mentions an appointed time of torment)?

The Final Judgment itself is an event of torment for the wicked.

Also, it is Christ that will Judge the wicked so if you see Him standing before you at your time of Judgment…that won’t be good.

Secondly, why not? Where in the bible does it say spirits are indestructible, even in spite of God? He can create, but not destroy or confine spirits?

Let me explain a few things,

First off, I am a Latter-Day Saint and my understanding of God and the Universe is not bound solely to the Bible, even though I do believe the Bible to be the Word of God as long as it is translated and interpreted correctly.

Second, God’s methods of Creation do not include any *poofing* of something into existence. The idea of ex nihilo or “something from nothing” is false.

God forms His Creations from pre-existing materials and these materials cannot be “created” or “destroyed”, they had no beginning and will have no end.

I suppose a spirit once formed could be “unformed” back into it’s base materials, but the Lord has never revealed this being done or if that is the ultimate fate of the wicked

Third, all spirits gain authority from God. All of us have received many authorities because we are the children of God.

Satan is a son of God and he moves freely to and fro upon the Earth, however, he has not been given any authority from God to tempt us. It is us, during our mortal sojourn, that give Satan and his minions power over us when we succumb to their enticing and commit sin.

Interesting. Where in the bible is this?

The “armor of God” spoken of by Paul to the Ephesians comes to mind.

Basically, if we live our lives according to the will of God, we are clad in His armor and can resist all the powers of the devil and his minions.

This is why I said Satan loses power when we do as God commands. If all people we thus clad in God’s armor, he would have no power to tempt anyone.

The scriptures claim that Satan will be bound during the Millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ following His Second Coming.

The term “bound” in this instance does not mean that Satan will be in prison or anything, but that all the people upon the Earth during the Lord’s reign will be righteous and clad in the armor of God and Satan will be powerless, or bound, and will be unable to do anything for a time.

Huh. Why didn't he douse the flame of Rwanda before so many perished? Why doesn't he nip the Kim Jong family reign over north Korea in the bud? What about the black plague? A lot of evil happened BECAUSE of that one (such as burning Jews en masse for "causing" it, for example).

The Lord allows us all time upon this planet to live according to our own will and pleasure.

Yes, the actions of the wicked often cause suffering for others, but the Lord allows this to happen so that His Judgment against the wicked would be perfectly Just.

If God pulled a “Minority Report” every time someone was supposedly going to do something bad, how would this life be a test of our character? How could He be the perfect Judge? How could He prove that the punishment against the wicked was justified if they were never allowed to act for themselves?

In fact, all throughout history the Jews have suffered all kinds of evil unchecked.

This is not an accident.

The Lord promised many blessings upon the Israelites, His ancient covenant people, if they would remain faithful to Him and His Law.

As long as they remained faithful, the Lord promised that He would protect them from many evils.

When the Jews rejected their Savior, many of the blessings promised them became null and void and they were left defenseless.

Hmmm... What role do you believe Satan plays for people if he doesn't cause suffering? What makes him even an evil element at that point?

God did not choose Satan to be an enemy to righteousness. He had never been given a “role” by God to play.​

Satan simply wishes to make all men miserable like himself.
​

 

[Prestor John]

That can't be, because many times the Bible tells us that God was "hurt" by people's actions. If he knew, then he is a sado-masochist, and free-will really has no meaning.

I don't really follow you logic. You mind explaining?

 

[Prestor John]

Interesting.... It says the soul dies. Aren't most people taught that the soul is immortal? Hmm...

This is a reference to spiritual death, which put simply is the soul's separation from God.

 

[Prestor John]

So then God is responsible for everything that flowed from that plan, including the evil.

No, God commanded Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit.

It was they themselves who decided to gain the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

God would be an unjust God if He had forced any Evil upon Adam and Eve, however, since they had reasoned within themselves that the greater risk of knowing Evil was worth the desired reward of knowing Good, they chose to partake, independent of God.

The only way that it could be argued that God is responsible for Evil is in the fact that He gave His children the freedom to choose for themselves.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, God commanded Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit.

But God knew that they would disobey him. God chose that outcome, too.

It was they themselves who decided to gain the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

And it was God who decided to make Adam and Eve disobedient.

And it was God who chose to make the tree accessible to them.

God would be an unjust God if He had forced any Evil upon Adam and Eve, however, since they had reasoned within themselves that the greater risk of knowing Evil was worth the desired reward of knowing Good, they chose to partake, independent of God.

Yes: it's a retelling of the Prometheus myth, only with Prometheus/Adam cast as the villain instead of the hero.

The only way that it could be argued that God is responsible for Evil is in the fact that He gave His children the freedom to choose for themselves.

No, God's responsibility comes from two things:
- his foreknowledge of what would happen
- his ability to influence what would happen.

Which of these do you think your God lacked? If you don't think he lacked either, then the implication is that God is responsible for every evil act that humanity ever committed.

 

[Enoch07]

It was a talking snake. Do you think that G-d is unable to create one?

Perhaps He is able to. But snakes are not capable of speech.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No, God commanded Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit.

It was they themselves who decided to gain the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

God would be an unjust God if He had forced any Evil upon Adam and Eve, however, since they had reasoned within themselves that the greater risk of knowing Evil was worth the desired reward of knowing Good, they chose to partake, independent of God.

The only way that it could be argued that God is responsible for Evil is in the fact that He gave His children the freedom to choose for themselves.

Exactly. So why do you say, God "knew" they would?
And when? Before He created them, or afterward sometime?
There are very few instances, in the Bible, where God knew how a specific individual was going to act! He may know how certain events will unfold -- he can maneouver them even -- but that's not saying He knows who will involve themselves.

It really hinges on if He desires to use such power. And He usually doesnt. Jehovah God told the Israelites, "I have put life and death before you....and you must choose life."

But you already knew this (no pun intended); it doesn't change how you understand it, does it?

Maybe this: we're made in God's image, right? So, our innate behavior-- our sense of Justice, our ability to love even strangers-- comes from Him, we are like Him. Why wouldn't our innate curiosity be similar to His?
He wouldnt have any curiosity, if He knows everything that each of us is going to do.

 

[Akivah]

Perhaps He is able to. But snakes are not capable of speech.

That one was.

 

[Enoch07]

That one was.

That because it wasn't a snake.

The serpent is a metaphor for a person or being. The reference is repeated several times throughout the Bible.

Revelations 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Its used commonly in the English language it is an idiom used to describe shady sneaky people. As in the idiom: "If it was a snake it would have bit me" or "That guy is a snake in the grass".

The serpent in the garden of Eden was no literal snake.

 

[Enoch07]

But God knew that they would disobey him. God chose that outcome, too.

They had free will to make their own choice.

And it was God who decided to make Adam and Eve disobedient.

Nope He gave them the ability to make choices; free will.

And it was God who chose to make the tree accessible to them.

This is true.

No, God's responsibility comes from two things:
- his foreknowledge of what would happen
- his ability to influence what would happen.

Which of these do you think your God lacked? If you don't think he lacked either, then the implication is that God is responsible for every evil act

Nope as stated above. God gave us choice. If we chose evil acts that is on us.

 

[Akivah]

That because it wasn't a snake.

The serpent is a metaphor for a person or being. The reference is repeated several times throughout the Bible.

Revelations 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Its used commonly in the English language it is an idiom used to describe shady sneaky people. As in the idiom: "If it was a snake it would have bit me" or "That guy is a snake in the grass".

The serpent in the garden of Eden was no literal snake.

When you quote the christian bible, then your belief might work.

I was only speaking of Jewish understanding using just the Hebrew bible. Within our texts, the snake was a talking snake, and nothing more.

 

[Prestor John]

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, so all of my responses come from an LDS perspective.

I believe that the spirits of all men and women lived with God before coming into this mortal world.

During that time we enjoyed a real father/child relationship with God, who loved, taught and nurtured us.

Even though we all took after our Father, we were also individuals with our own wills and desires, forming our own personalities.

As we matured as spirits we came to understand that we lacked many attributes possessed by our Father.

When our maturation as spirits was complete God gave us the opportunity to be tested and to potentially become more like Him.

Everyone that has ever lived, is living or will live upon the Earth is a child of God who chose to enter into mortality in order to gain precious experience and to learn and grow from it.

But God knew that they would disobey him. God chose that outcome, too.

God knows His children well and, not too different from parents on Earth, He has a foreknowledge of what His children would do if they were placed into a particular situation.

I know that if I leave a piece of candy on the table that my oldest son would pick it up and smell it - but depending on the type of candy - may place it back on the table.

My second son, however, would only notice that that whatever was on the table was edible before immediately seizing it and gobbling it down.

God knew that if Adam and Eve were given a choice to either remain innocent or gain a Knowledge of Good and Evil, that they would choose to gain the knowledge, because He knew that both Adam and Eve had the desire to become more like Him.

Since God has Knowledge of Good and Evil, all of His children must also gain this knowledge if they desire to emulate Him.

It was Adam and Eve that chose to partake of the fruit, not God.

Don’t confuse His foreknowledge of His children with some kind of jacked up predestination.

It was us that cultivated our distinct personalities. God just knows us well.

And it was God who decided to make Adam and Eve disobedient.

I do not believe that God “makes” our personalities.

I believe that, like any parent, God influenced us during our spiritual upbringing, but just like with children here on Earth, we had some tendencies that were independent from God’s influence.

Adam and Eve were chosen to be the first parents upon the Earth because of their righteousness and intelligence.​

 

[Prestor John]

And it was God who chose to make the tree accessible to them.

Yes and No.

God has always promised His children free will and there can be no free will unless we have options.

If there had been no Tree of Knowledge, then Adam and Eve would not have had free will, because they would have had no choice.

God gave us free will not only because He loves us, but also because it was our desire to have it.
So, yes, He chose to make the tree accessible, but it was because we wanted Him to. Which sort of makes it our choice more than His.

Yes: it's a retelling of the Prometheus myth, only with Prometheus/Adam cast as the villain instead of the hero.

If there is any correlation between the two stories, it is my belief that the Prometheus myth was the retelling, because Adam and Eve were the first human beings upon the planet.

I also believe that Adam and Eve were heroes, not villains. They made the correct choice and have since glorified God.

Mortality is not a punishment, but a blessing. A painful blessing, but still a blessing.

No, God's responsibility comes from two things:

- his foreknowledge of what would happen
- his ability to influence what would happen.

Which of these do you think your God lacked? If you don't think he lacked either, then the implication is that God is responsible for every evil act that humanity ever committed.

How does God’s foreknowledge of us make Him responsible for the choices we make?

I mean, I agree with you to a point. because the parent of a young child would be responsible for that child until he/she matures. But once they grow up, the parent can't be held responsible for the choices they made.

I believe that we have left the nest. Once in mortality, we are free to choose our own path and God can't be blamed if we make mistakes.

God could swoop in and "make it all better", just as a parent on Earth could swoop in and make all the decisions for their children, but would that be fair?

How would that affect their children? Would they learn anything in life? Gain any sort of experience if “Mommy” made all their decisions for them?

Fortunately, our Father in Heaven has made several promises to us that He will keep, because He cannot lie, which includes our free will.

Even if our choices hurt us, others and even Him, He promised us that we would be free to make those choices.​

I mean, how lame would this life be if you were unable to even ask these kinds of questions?

God doesn't come down and smite you for criticizing Him, because He loves you and promised you the ability to think and act for yourself.

​

 

[Prestor John]

Exactly. So why do you say, God "knew" they would?
And when? Before He created them, or afterward sometime?
There are very few instances, in the Bible, where God knew how a specific individual was going to act! He may know how certain events will unfold -- he can maneouver them even -- but that's not saying He knows who will involve themselves.

It really hinges on if He desires to use such power. And He usually doesnt. Jehovah God told the Israelites, "I have put life and death before you....and you must choose life."

But you already knew this (no pun intended); it doesn't change how you understand it, does it?

Maybe this: we're made in God's image, right? So, our innate behavior-- our sense of Justice, our ability to love even strangers-- comes from Him, we are like Him. Why wouldn't our innate curiosity be similar to His?
He wouldnt have any curiosity, if He knows everything that each of us is going to do.

There have been certain situations, involving particular chosen people, where God knew what they would do.

The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is a prime example. So sure was the Father that His Son would offer Himself up that salvation had been promised to all since before the foundations of the Earth had been laid.

God knows His children and has selected from the most noble and great of us to fulfill certain key roles.

Our curiosity stems from our desire to know all things and to become like Him.

Once we also come to know all things, we will put away childish things, like curiosity, and fulfill even greater, much more worthwhile desires.

 

[Aldrnari]

Neat

No, Hell isn’t really a prison at all and it was not made by God.

The Final Judgment itself is an event of torment for the wicked.

Also, it is Christ that will Judge the wicked so if you see Him standing before you at your time of Judgment…that won’t be good.

Let me explain a few things,

First off, I am a Latter-Day Saint and my understanding of God and the Universe is not bound solely to the Bible, even though I do believe the Bible to be the Word of God as long as it is translated and interpreted correctly.

Second, God’s methods of Creation do not include any *poofing* of something into existence. The idea of ex nihilo or “something from nothing” is false.

God forms His Creations from pre-existing materials and these materials cannot be “created” or “destroyed”, they had no beginning and will have no end.

I suppose a spirit once formed could be “unformed” back into it’s base materials, but the Lord has never revealed this being done or if that is the ultimate fate of the wicked

Third, all spirits gain authority from God. All of us have received many authorities because we are the children of God.

Satan is a son of God and he moves freely to and fro upon the Earth, however, he has not been given any authority from God to tempt us. It is us, during our mortal sojourn, that give Satan and his minions power over us when we succumb to their enticing and commit sin.

The “armor of God” spoken of by Paul to the Ephesians comes to mind.

Basically, if we live our lives according to the will of God, we are clad in His armor and can resist all the powers of the devil and his minions.

This is why I said Satan loses power when we do as God commands. If all people we thus clad in God’s armor, he would have no power to tempt anyone.

The scriptures claim that Satan will be bound during the Millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ following His Second Coming.

The term “bound” in this instance does not mean that Satan will be in prison or anything, but that all the people upon the Earth during the Lord’s reign will be righteous and clad in the armor of God and Satan will be powerless, or bound, and will be unable to do anything for a time.

The Lord allows us all time upon this planet to live according to our own will and pleasure.

Yes, the actions of the wicked often cause suffering for others, but the Lord allows this to happen so that His Judgment against the wicked would be perfectly Just.

If God pulled a “Minority Report” every time someone was supposedly going to do something bad, how would this life be a test of our character? How could He be the perfect Judge? How could He prove that the punishment against the wicked was justified if they were never allowed to act for themselves?

This is not an accident.

The Lord promised many blessings upon the Israelites, His ancient covenant people, if they would remain faithful to Him and His Law.

As long as they remained faithful, the Lord promised that He would protect them from many evils.

When the Jews rejected their Savior, many of the blessings promised them became null and void and they were left defenseless.

God did not choose Satan to be an enemy to righteousness. He had never been given a “role” by God to play.​

Satan simply wishes to make all men miserable like himself.
​

Interesting. Thank you for taking the time to share your beliefs.

One thing I do admire about LDS is their passion for genealogy. My dad's side of the family is LDS, and because of them, we were able to track our family tree back to the 1500s. Pretty cool stuff!

 

[Aldrnari]

Only those that still chose Satan's side after our experience of life here on Earth is over. As I said above even the 1/3 of human souls that sided with Satan during the fall still have a chance at redemption in this life. This life is their 2nd chance to learn and make a decision of their own free will.

Ah. So you believe the angels who rebelled against God are... us? To each their own.

Without any physical proof of God, we must come to love Him even though terrible stuff happens to us.

So, god requires blind faith.

It's easy to love a parent that spoils us and does not ask us to do any hard work.

It's hard to love a parent that ask us to work hard, and does not give us everything we want.

I think a more accurate analogy is that it's easy to love a parent when they are physically involved in your life. It's harder to love a parent who only communicates with you via a letter (bible) some guy (divinely inspired author) wrote who says he knows your dad, and that you have to do what the letter says if you want to see him and his sweet mansion (heaven). If you don't, then you'll wind up bound and gagged in a basement to be tortured (hell), but it will totally be your fault because you didn't do what the letter says you should do that this guy wrote.

What complicates the issue more, is that there are many different letters from many different guys speaking for many different dads all claiming to be from your REAL dad, and they all hold just as much validity as this one.

It.... seems a little sketchy to me.

It's a test. A test to see which side everyone chooses of their own free will. That is why free will cannot be impeded upon by God or Satan.

It has nothing to do with free will, and everything to do with chance based on our limited knowledge. How are we supposed to be judged on our choices if the information we get is contradictory, or outright inaccurate (such as when physical evidence contradicts the bible)?

I say, if God wants us to make an informed decision, make his evidence unquestionably apparent to everyone so they can know for sure, and then we can choose accordingly. Why wouldn't he do that if he didn't require blind faith?

 

[Enoch07]

Ah. So you believe the angels who rebelled against God are... us? To each their own.

Nope the 1/3 is human souls and angels combined.

So, god requires blind faith

Not necessarily.

It.... seems a little sketchy to me.

You disagree, I can understand that. Faith is not easy otherwise everyone would do it.

It has nothing to do with free will, and everything to do with chance based on our limited knowledge. How are we supposed to be judged on our choices if the information we get is contradictory, or outright inaccurate (such as when physical evidence contradicts the bible)?

Thats why studying helps, to clear up contradictions. Again, being a Christian is hard. Nothing easy about it.

say, if God wants us to make an informed decision, make his evidence unquestionably apparent to everyone so they can know for sure, and then we can choose accordingly. Why wouldn't he do that if he didn't require blind faith?

It's not a test if the answers are given to us.

 

[Aldrnari]

Thanks for the discussion @Enoch07. I appreciate the honesty.

It's not a test if the answers are given to us.

Why not? Satan had all the answers on that test, as did the 1/3rd who rebelled, and yet they still flunked. Knowing something doesn't mean you will do it; what it does mean, though, is that you are accountable when you don't.

 

[Enoch07]

When you quote the christian bible, then your belief might work.

I was only speaking of Jewish understanding using just the Hebrew bible. Within our texts, the snake was a talking snake, and nothing more.

I understand, Christian interpretation is different. It's just a difference of opinion, nothing either of us should get get upset over.

Thanks for the discussion though!

 

[Enoch07]

Thanks for the discussion @Enoch07. I appreciate the honesty.



Why not? Satan had all the answers on that test, as did the 1/3rd who rebelled, and yet they still flunked. Knowing something doesn't mean you will do it; what it does mean, though, is that you are accountable when you don't.

You are correct. After the fall, Eden was established. Adam and Eve were put in paradise with everything they needed. With only one rule, and they failed. So now we have to grind our way through these insanely tough lives to figure all this mess out.

p.s. thanks for listening Al