How reliable is the Bible?

[Ceridwen018]

Open your heart. Hhhmmm.

Do you think you could maybe elaborate on this a little dudley? If indeed one does open their heart, how do they know that it is god who enters? How do they know that anything is entering at all, really? Could it simply be the same effects that a sugar pill would have for a hypochondirac (they believe it works hard enough, therefore it does)?

 

[dudley thoth]

If indeed one does open their heart, how do they know that it is god who enters?

If it is God, perhaps he lets them know.

How do they know that anything is entering at all, really? Could it simply be the same effects that a sugar pill would have for a hypochondirac (they believe it works hard enough, therefore it does)?

If it isn't God, rather some form of delusion (or misunderstanding), then I can only agree with you.

I believe that all human beings are susceptive to delusion concerning the nature of the universe and what may or may not lie beyond. We can exchange delusions for other delusions, and so on, until we die. On the surface the situation looks like an impossible mess. But (and I admit at this stage it's a big but :mrgreen: ) If God is in control, then he can cut through the mess and reveal to us the truth. Assuming God is in the business of Truth. Also, IF God can do that for a person, he can do it in such a way as to Prove his existence in that individuals heart.

God Bless 8)

 

[Ceridwen018]

Ok, this convo is coming from a thread about the bible from under Christianity. We were told we couldn't debate in there, so I'm carrying it over to here. I'll paste the whole thing at once so everyone can see it, and then break it down to reply.

martha dodge,

Please consider that God's Holy Word has been around for approximatly 4000 years. How many other documents can make that claim? It has been added to in that time span by over 60 writers and all along the same line. This in itself is amazing. Those of us who serve Almighty God realize that not everyone will believe but we do still try to explain and many die, even today, for love of the Holy Word. Please consider that all life is moving to death but we know that deep inside there is a soul that will continue. Proof is in humans disregard for life. We know that we will live forever, somewhere. Someday like Voltaire, you may again express the fear as you face death that you do not know what is waiting for you on the other side of death.

Please consider that God's Holy Word has been around for approximatly 4000 years. How many other documents can make that claim?

Many other documents can make that claim. In fact, all documents surviving today which were written 4000 years ago can... :lol: Seriously though: there were many ancient religions, such as those of the Greeks and Romans, and Egyptians, etc. They existed long before Judaism (and the resulting Christianity), and the only reason we know of them is because of their surviving documents. One thing we need to keep in mind here, is that longevity does not warrant validity.

Please consider that all life is moving to death but we know that deep inside there is a soul that will continue.

If I were to tell you that I knew 'deep inside' that my little cousin was really a gnome who was switched at birth, you'd think I was ridiculous. To know something 'deep inside' is not enough. You must be able to back things up with logical evidence, otherwise they hold no water, in my opinion.

Someday like Voltaire, you may again express the fear as you face death that you do not know what is waiting for you on the other side of death

Are you saying that it is through this fear I shall turn again to god to save my soul, and therefore be more peaceful at death? This proves my theory that people invented god to fullfill their emotional needs, among other things.

 

[martha dodge]

Chatting with you will be like chatting with my son. Richard is also agnostic. Logic is his god also. But humans are not logical. We cry which is not logical. We become hysterical, which is not logical. We get angry which is not logical. We hate which is not logical. We try to answer what we cannot see or feel with logic, which is not logical. We love, which is not logical. We sometimes kill or mame others with our technology, which is not logical. We are the only creatures on the planet who really need Father God, because we are so illogical and totally unaware of our own shortcomings. No, I do not propose that you will cry out for God in the end. I only repeat what I read of Voltaire and as far as was written, he did not cry out to God, only to his own fear.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Crying is perfectly logical. It is a behavior which lets others know we are distressed. Social animals let each other know how they feel.

The same is true for becoming hysterical, getting angry, and so forth. We are social animals, and like other social animals we exhibit complex social behaviors towards each other.

Besides, you say that hate and killing others is not logical. So, being illogical is a bad thing, right? Let's be logical then, and end hate and violence.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Mr. Spinkles, agreed

Martha,

Something which is illogical is something which cannot be explained (in a sense, for just because something cannot be explained now does not mean that it does not have the potential to be explained in the future). All of the things you mentioned can be explained and understood, and are therefore logical-- even killing. Even animals kill each other over territory, protection of young or herd, etc. We as humans, with our heightened intelligence have only religion to add to that list of things to fight over, so you see humans and animals are not all that different.

As far as being the only creatures on Earth who need a 'father god', how would you know if you have never tried to go without one? I can tell you, I have no need of a god. Think of it this way-- someone who is addicted to cocaine will tell you that they absolutely need it. Due to their level of addiction, that might certainly be true, but there are rehab programs to help people like that. After going through such a program, that person will emerge clean, and much healthier than they were before. They will have no more need for their drug.

I don't see the point you are trying to make about Voltaire. His being afraid of death is no uncommon event, although I should like to think that I will not be.

 

[Lightkeeper]

No one who believes in a higher power has to prove it to anyone else. It is there own belief. If a person chooses to not believe in a higher power or denounces God, it does mean that a higher power isn't still looking after them.

 

[martha dodge]

To Lighthouse, I do agree somewhat but the older I become and the closer to death I come, the more I want to see people come to know the Lord Jesus and to honor and worship Father God. This is like an obcession for me now. Someday you may get it too. This is why I try to send out the Word of Father God. Jesus says that it will not return void.

 

[martha dodge]

To Cheridwen, Human emotions are harmful to our health, they cause heart disease, high blood pressure, and maybe even cancer according to the AMA. And this is not true of the other animals on the planet ( with the exception of confinement). As for doing without Father God, well I have not always been a Christian and I promise you that I would never like to live with that torment again.
I am always amused by my son when he too, as you did, choose not to talk about love.
As to your death, I pray that nothing will happen to you until you have met Jesus Christ. The quote was only used to remind you that even a man considered one of the greatest logical thinkers of history was not sure in the end that he had made the right choice.

 

[Lightkeeper]

To Lighthouse, I do agree somewhat but the older I become and the closer to death I come, the more I want to see people come to know the Lord Jesus and to honor and worship Father God. This is like an obcession for me now. Someday you may get it too. This is why I try to send out the Word of Father God. Jesus says that it will not return void.

Each person has a right to worship in their own way. We need to be careful not to place our obsessions on other people.

 

[martha dodge]

Sorry to misuse your handle, Lightkeeper. It was the stumblings of an old woman.

I understand your defense of freedom of choice. I will also defend your right to believe as you choose. I have this obsession because I am totally convienced that the only way is through Jesus Christ. Like my daughter says, "I have seen the ocean. Don't try to convince me it isn't there. Even if I lived in Nebraska."

 

[Ceridwen018]

Martha,

I don't mind your 'obsession' being placed on me at all. There is little I love more than debating these things and tossing around ideas, so by all means let us continue!

You are correct in saying that emotions do not affect animals in the same ways that they affect humans. In rare instances, such as a mother losing her baby, being singled out from the herd, etc, animals can have adverse medical effects due to their emotions, but it is not on the same scale as humans at all. This is because animals lead much more natural lives than we do. Their lives and emotions are dealt with on a much shallower and less complex scale.

Haha, I must have skipped over the 'love' part, but I assure you it was not on purpose. Mmmm...my 'sappy romantic girl' side is just as alive and healthy as any other woman's, so this isn't going to be pleasant, but I'm going to attempt to break the emotion of love down into a sort of psychological analysis. Love, towards a person, is an exceptional feeling that develops due to the release of certain endorphins. Love between a mother and baby stems from natural bonding elements within our brains. Love between a husband and wife, or two friends is certainly different, as they don't have that chemical connection. Theirs begins with our human need for companionship. We are highly social creatures, and so seek to surround ourselves with others who complement our personalities. Out of this 'group of friends' it is not uncommon for a favorite to be chosen. I ride horses, and have been around them for many years. I can attest that even horses have 'best friends' within a herd, and figure it is similar with other animals. Friends make each other happy and make each other laugh-- both of these are actions which release favorable chemicals in our brains, causeing us to relax. This sense of security also brings us closer to our friend. This person is then labelled to us as someone who provides positive feelings when you're around them.

Alright, we've got 'positive feelings'. Now, how do those turn to 'love'? Well, what is love besides a really, really, really positive feeling? I think it is the evolution of these simple positive feelings over time. This evolution occurs as one becomes more and more emotionally dependent on their 'best friend' figure. It grows to the point where you really cannot live without the person, because they provide you with happiness and support which you have correctly deemed as necessary for your mental well-being. As far as husband and wife go, (or wife and wife, etc., if we're being politically correct here), they have an extra boost as well due to sex. Sex releases bonding chemicals much like those found in a mother/child relationship. Not that two friends do not become chemically bonded over time as well, because they do. Happiness and such positive feelings release endorphins. In truth, all emotions release chemicals in one's brain, but the purpose of the negative one's is to do the opposite of bond.

Lighthouse,

I'm not trying to make anyone *prove* anything to me per say... well maybe I am a little, but my main purpose is to just ask questions and see what people have for answers.

 

[Lightkeeper]

Sorry to misuse your handle, Lightkeeper. It was the stumblings of an old woman.

I understand your defense of freedom of choice. I will also defend your right to believe as you choose. I have this obsession because I am totally convienced that the only way is through Jesus Christ. Like my daughter says, "I have seen the ocean. Don't try to convince me it isn't there. Even if I lived in Nebraska."

Martha, here is one of the rules of the forum:

"Proselytizing will not be tolerated. This forum should be for sharing, discussing and understanding other religions and ideas, not converting others to your individual religion or beliefs."

It's O.K. to discuss your religion, but please don't try to convert.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

As to your death, I pray that nothing will happen to you until you have met Jesus Christ. The quote was only used to remind you that even a man considered one of the greatest logical thinkers of history was not sure in the end that he had made the right choice.

Saying that belief in God/Christianity is a choice is like saying that belief in Zeus or unicorns or Islam is a choice. One can choose to not go around saying that God or Zeus or unicorns do not exist, but if deep down one does not believe they exist, one cannot "choose" otherwise (although I suppose we can choose to delude ourselves).

Also, I highly doubt your statement to Ceridwen that you hope she finds Jesus before she dies has much affect on her, any more than it would have an affect on you if a Muslim said he hopes you find Mohommad before you die.

 

[ONEWAY]

Ceridwen018 how are you and God Bless. I checked out the site you mentioned on "The Bible" from the Christian forum, and my conclusions are very much the same, the Bible is indeed very reliable. The individual who made the site seems to have put more opinion in the supposed contradictions than facts, they are indeed not contradictions. No matter what book you read if one does not take it in its proper context it will obviously be taken out of context, meaning that the true meaning will be lost and one's opinion will be the basis for one's incorrect judgement. In addition, you say that the Bible has general prophecies, well the fact is the Jews of the time and even now seem to know the prophecies as indeed for the Messiah, the difference is many have not looked into the real Messiah Jesus Christ, who fit all the prophecies that were predicted of Him, which even the Pharisees at the time knew, but did not choose to accept it. They contributed Him to doing miracles from Satan's power rather than God's. However, it was no doubt that He is and was saying He is God when He was crucified for having said "I am he." The reaction of the Jews thus further proves that they understood what He was saying because they crucified Him, that He is God.
Since you did not really believe the true statements I wrote on the Christian forum I will mention a few others, but it is useless if one is not wanting to truly believe in the truth, one must be open to God in one's heart. No amount of evidence will convince you if you are set in accepting was you accept rather than the truth.

The Resurrection
-Their were 500 witnesses of Jesus after His death of Him being alive (1 Cor. 15:6-8)
-Also, if one were to say that Jesus were alive after His crucifixion and had not actually died, then one would also have to believe that after Jesus had been beaten nearly to death by flogging (The history of Cruxifixion shows this about flogging) and while lossing a tremendous amount of blood carried the cross which was not smooth but one would get splinters while carrying it, was hammered wrists and feet to the cross (Causing more loss in blood) which in order to breath while on the cross he would have to lift Himself up with His dislocated arms (Dislocated due to the weight of the body) and each time He would do this more splinters would go into His back, and then after this somehow pretend to be dead, then survive the guards peircing His side with a spear to make sure He was dead, which went into His heart (Water and Blood came out), and then took Him down from the cross and placed Him into a tomb. In addition, with all this in mind He would have had to move the stone from inside the tomb with His bloody wrists and feet, then take out the guards who would die if they let anyone into the tomb and take the body, then He would have to walk many miles and proclaim victory to the dsciples who were already in great distress and doubt. The disciples then would completely change from scared and cowardly to bold and couragous, and each would die by persecution (Only John died of normal causes) for the belief that Jesus is God and the Savior of all mankind that died on the cross for the sin of the world and was raised from the dead on the third day who appeared to them and many others. What seems reasonable to you?

Let me recommend a book for you to check out, though their are many others, "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict" By Josh McDowell. My friend I appreciate your time and pray that God will lead you to the truth.

Thanks and God Bless (Romans 10:9-10)

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The individual who made the site seems to have put more opinion in the supposed contradictions than facts, they are indeed not contradictions. No matter what book you read if one does not take it in its proper context it will obviously be taken out of context, meaning that the true meaning will be lost and one's opinion will be the basis for one's incorrect judgement.

Matthew says that Joseph's father is Jacob (Mt 1:16). Luke says Joseph's father is Heli (Lk 3:23). That's just one example of a direct contradiction.

In addition, you say that the Bible has general prophecies, well the fact is the Jews of the time and even now seem to know the prophecies as indeed for the Messiah, the difference is many have not looked into the real Messiah Jesus Christ, who fit all the prophecies that were predicted of Him, which even the Pharisees at the time knew, but did not choose to accept it.

Or perhaps they did not know Jesus was the Messiah. Perhaps Jesus did not fulfill all the prophesies (which should not be too difficult anyway--the prophesies are often vague) and later the Gospel writers added/changed what really happened so that it would better fit the prophesies.

Since you did not really believe the true statements I wrote on the Christian forum I will mention a few others, but it is useless if one is not wanting to truly believe in the truth, one must be open to God in one's heart. No amount of evidence will convince you if you are set in accepting was you accept rather than the truth.

And no amount of evidence will convince you to accept the truth if you are unwilling to be open to God not existing and the Bible being fallible. Perhaps you need to 'open your heart' as well.

The Resurrection
-Their were 500 witnesses of Jesus after His death of Him being alive (1 Cor. 15:6-8)

Correction: there were 500 witnesses of Jesus after His death of Him being alive, **according to one of the Gospel writers**.

-Also, if one were to say that Jesus were alive after His crucifixion and had not actually died, then one would also have to believe that after Jesus had been beaten nearly to death by flogging (The history of Cruxifixion shows this about flogging) and while lossing a tremendous amount of blood carried the cross which was not smooth but one would get splinters while carrying it, was hammered wrists and feet to the cross (Causing more loss in blood) which in order to breath while on the cross he would have to lift Himself up with His dislocated arms (Dislocated due to the weight of the body) and each time He would do this more splinters would go into His back, and then after this somehow pretend to be dead, then survive the guards peircing His side with a spear to make sure He was dead, which went into His heart (Water and Blood came out), and then took Him down from the cross and placed Him into a tomb. In addition, with all this in mind He would have had to move the stone from inside the tomb with His bloody wrists and feet, then take out the guards who would die if they let anyone into the tomb and take the body, then He would have to walk many miles and proclaim victory to the dsciples who were already in great distress and doubt. The disciples then would completely change from scared and cowardly to bold and couragous, and each would die by persecution (Only John died of normal causes) for the belief that Jesus is God and the Savior of all mankind that died on the cross for the sin of the world and was raised from the dead on the third day who appeared to them and many others. What seems reasonable to you?

The incredibly unlikely scenario you have described above is still more likely than someone dying, then becoming alive again through supernatural means. Here's what is even more likely: the New Testament contains a good message, but it cannot be relied upon to be historically accurate (in fact, many Biblical scholars would argue that being historically accurate was not the primary intent of the Gospel writers).

 

[Ceridwen018]

Hi ONEWAY!

but it is useless if one is not wanting to truly believe in the truth

First I would just like to say that I try to be very, very open to everyone's ideas. I think that no one is certain of the 'ultimate truth' and as for myself, I believe what I do because it is where logical thinking and reasoning have led me. I do not want you in any way to think that i'm not taking what you say seriously, or that i'm just writing it off because my mind is set.

Pharisees at the time knew, but did not choose to accept it.

I would say, be careful with this one. It is very easy to say this, enabling the fact that the Pharisees rejected Jesus to fit into the 'story' here.

However, there were more people, more Jews there than just the Pharisees. What matters, is that there were more people who played witness to Jesus who rejected him than who accepted him, and that says something to me.

However, it was no doubt that He is and was saying He is God when He was crucified for having said "I am he."

No doubt. But just because he said he was god, does not prove he is.

The reaction of the Jews thus further proves that they understood what He was saying because they crucified Him, that He is God.

The Jews didn't crucify him because they knew he was god, they crucified him because they believed he was blaspheming.

Their were 500 witnesses of Jesus after His death of Him being alive (1 Cor. 15:6-

Yes, and there are over 5 million Jews alive right now, who don't believe in Jesus' divinity. If it was that convincing, why is Judaism one of the biggest religions today?

Also, as far as the bible verse you provided goes, to use the bible to prove what's in the bible is circular reasoning, and therefore doesn't hold any water in my opinion.

Also, if one were to say that Jesus were alive after His crucifixion and had not actually died

Did I say that? If I did, I didn't mean to. I fully accept that Jesus did indeed die on the cross.

then He would have to walk many miles and proclaim victory to the dsciples who were already in great distress and doubt.

Is it not odd to you that in the bible, it specifically states that the disciples did not recognize Jesus when they first saw him after his 'resurretion'? Could it have been a different person entirely?

It is a theory, that in the disciples' state of distress and disarray, they could have been easily hoodwinked.

Thanks for your post!

 

[martha dodge]

I have lived a full life, not always pleasant but now peaceful, because of my faith. I have seen and talked to many learned people. I have followed mostly a logical path to this faith. But I have never ceased to be amazed by ignorance which is embraced with such aplomb. It is the duty of every Christian to teach every unbeliever of Jesus Christ. That is a fact undeniable from His own mouth. There is no such thing as opinions about Jesus Christ. He was what He says He was or He is the biggest liar who ever lived. One must choose for onesself. There are only opinions on how man chooses to interpet Jesus Christ Words. To spend ones time with usless chatter about trivial philosophical punities is totally illogical. Why do you all waste your lives? It really is very short , you know. I assumed that Christians came here to discuss dogma. Now I find this site populate by unbelievers seeking to distort and twist and proport false doctrine. You all should get a life. Oh and Credwin, the fact that you say you are a female does not prove that you are.( I know its a cheap shot but not any less than yours)

 

[Mr Spinkles]

martha dodge--

The name of this forum is called "Religious Debates". People come here to "debate".

I understand that your faith has given you comfort, as I'm sure the faiths of all the worldviews give the people who ascribe to them comfort. But we are not in this particular forum to witness only Christians discuss Christian dogma. We are here to debate religious topics, and all are welcome.

I do not know about the other "unbeilevers", but as for myself, just because I am not Christian does not mean I "seek to distort and twist and proport false doctrine". I do not make that judgement on you--just because you have views other than my own does not mean I think you are trying to deceive everyone. You simply have your views, and you want to express them--and I respect that.

You said yourself that you "have seen and talked to many learned people" and "have followed mostly a logical path to this faith". Yet now you criticize young people for following that very same path of logic and questioning and talking. Are you the only one who gets to go on the journey?

Matthew 5:45: "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The New Testament is 2nd-hand fable stitched together in the late 1st century. Its claim to inerrancy is reducible to a verse in 2 Timothy and, therefore, is tantamount to the somewhat inane assertion that 2 Timothy is inerrant because 2 Timothy implies that 2 Timothy is inerrant.

The Old Testament (Tanach) is far more substantive. It is a conflation of mythology, poetry, and politics heavily influenced by the mythology, poetry, and politics of the area. To speak of Torah inerrancy is just silly. More importantly, to study the Tanach in isolation from Ugaritic/Canaanite culture is a bit like studying fungus while ignoring biology.