1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How reliable is the Bible?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ceridwen018, May 4, 2004.

  1. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    To believe or not to believe? Is there a god, or isn't there? This site is practically built on those two questions. There are many opinions out there, but the bottom line is this: The answer lies in our holy books--or does it?
    'Because the bible says so' is not a satisfactory answer for me anymore. How do we know that what the bible says is true? (I say bible, because thats what i'm most familiar with, but I am referring to all books containing specific religious dogma). The usual answer to that question I can imagine, whether we are willing to admit it or not, is because we have been told it is true. In truth, if I had been born into an Islamic family instead of a Catholic one, I would have had faith in Islam. Until we each take our own personal spiritual journey, we cannot consider our faith to be our own, but that of our environment.
    That aside, I will give my own opinion here: I believe the bible, and most other religious books, contain many good and important qualities and philosophies concerning morality, way of life, etc. I mean heck, modern society today is founded on the morals spelled out in the bible, etc., but thats not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to Jesus' rising from the dead, the creation story, the stories of miracles-- the things that make religion, religion. If the bible is not infallible, then all of those beliefs are called into question.
    I, personally, consider myself to be an atheist. I have studied the bible extensively and it is through that study that I began to notice certain inconsistencies and the like, which eventually lead to my present state of mind.
    I will leave you all with that. I am very interested to hear your answer to the question of why you believe in the infallibility of your holy book. I think we may get some interesting answers! 8)
     
  2. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    I have no holy book... my faith is based on oral tradition and culture...
    makes it harder to learn but infinately more worthwhile. 8)

    the problem with basing your faith on a book as I see it, is that a book is impersonal... it has no cultural relevancy to tie it down...

    The bible for instance, was written thousands of years ago by people on the other side of the world... The stories had cultural meaning as well as spiritual meaning ... that meaning is for the most part lost... so lost that arguments over simple translation and wording are the most common division within chrisitanity itself...

    books have no 'soul' if you will...

    wa:-do
     
  3. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Still, even Native American beliefs share something in common with the Bible in that both have a complete lack of evidence to back them up.

    Go science!
     
  4. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    erm... actually... thats not entirely true mr. spinkles....

    science has confermed the oral tradition of some Innuit tribes that they came from another land... 8)

    oral tradition has also given you many of the medicies that you use today :mrgreen:

    oral tradition tells us that once our ancestors did not live in ballance and many of the animals dissapeared as a result of mans greed untill man was taught to live the right way... this too was confirmed by science when the white man began to dig up fossils from the Ice Age showing that the megafauna that man depended on went extinct do, in part, to waistful over hunting practices by man.... :cry:

    don't be too quick to judge :roll:
    and I agree... yeah science!

    wa:-do
     
  5. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    I'm a little disturbed by this oral tradition thing. If anything, it should be less dependable than a book. People forget things and add things to stories they have, unconsciously even.

    Another thing: all of the examples you supplied of your surviving oral tradition really didnt have anything to do with religion at all. That's like some historical scholar confirming that village 'whatever its name' which is mentioned in the bible, was indeed standing and functioning at the time the bible places it in. It's great that the bible contains little facts here and there, but we're not going to bet our lives on the entire thing just because of one consistentcy. In my opinion, factual historical groundwork should be a given in something that claims to hold any truth at all!
     
  6. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Damn, Ceridwen! Your arguments are scathing and infraggable....
     
  7. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    Actually I left out the religious parts... culture and religon are closely intwined....

    anyway... the rest of the imbalance story (really shortend) basicaly says that to punnish man the animals held a great council and decided to kill them off with disease... eventually the plant nations took pity on man and offered to help if they would remember to honor the animal and plant nations and never kill needlessly again...

    funny how the worst viruses are zoopathic... HIV, Influenza, Plague, Malaria....

    Books change from one printing/translation to another.. they fade and decay away... so I don't see how oral tradition is any worse... the storykeepers for the tribes are held to enormously high standard and it takes years to learn the stories so you don't change them...

    anyway, I was just pointing out that oral tradition is not completely unrelyable... as mr.spink. suggested.
    and you were the one who asked about holy books so I gave you an answer on why I don't have one...

    wa:-do
     
  8. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    painted wolf-

    Why would the stories in the Bible be any less reliable than oral stories about animals holding councils to punish man? I know the stories aren't the same, but still- neither of them have any scientific basis.

    Do you really think that animals literally had a council together? It sounds like a story to me that was used to explain the observations of disease, before scientific explainations came around.
     
  9. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    "Actually I left out the religious parts... culture and religon are closely intwined...."

    Yes... yes indeed religion and culture are very closely intertwined... very interesting... *scratches chin*... I wonder why that is...GOT IT!!!

    Religion was created by early man to fill in his many gaps of understanding. Being that one's culture is the true ruler of their life, it would only make sense that the resulting religion would fit in nicely.

    But thats off topic. I agree with Mr. Spinkles, both with what he said and in his inquiry as to whether or not you believe the animals really got organized and laid down the law.

    (...hhmmm, they [the animals] are much more powerful than we could have ever imagined... things aren't boding well for us in the future...)
     
  10. reebs

    reebs New Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5
    Ratings:
    +0
    Personally, I don't have any problem with the Bible. Like anything, it has it's lessons to be learned and if we look hard enough, we can apply those lessons to our everyday life. The Bible is only as reliable as the reader wants it to be. If someone, such as myself, wants to believe and have faith then the Bible has a great deal to offer. It's funny, I wasn't very spiritual until last November. The only reason is my dad being diagnosed with an incurable disease. It saddens me to think that it takes something this horrible to understand God and the way he works. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't know how he works, but I have my ideas.
    I wish that everybody took the chance to read the Bible, go to Mass and really try to learn something. Maybe you will gain more assurance that God does exist and maybe you won't. But I challenge anybody to give it a shot before something like a disease has to strike.
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Are you saying that you think your dad's disease came on because you weren't close to god???

    I agree that the bible teaches good lessons, but thats not what we're here to debate. The bible supposedly proves the existence of god, and therefore validates religion. Those are the two points I'm calling into question here.

    I have read the bible and I have gone to church my entire life. Its interesting to me that it was through deep religious study that I can to my present conclusions. Perhaps, being a recent devout, you will acheive the same end.

    You stated something very interesting though, about how it was through tragedy that you came to know god. One of my beliefs is that religion was created by early man to fill in gaps of understanding in his environment, as well as emotional gaps. Imaginary friend extraordinaire.
     
  12. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    248
    Ratings:
    +2
    the Bible doesn't (on the surface at least) set out to prove the existence of God. the existence of God is presupposed throughout. Reading the Bible Doesn't prove the existence of God. I read it over and over and it failed to have the slighted effect on me. Going to Church doesn't prove the existence of God. A thousand miracles doesn't prove the existence of God. A million Christians proclaiming the existence of God doesn't prove the existence of God. studying all the major (and 'minor') religions doesn't prove the existence of God. If God's not in your heart you won't find him anywhere. You've got to open your heart.
     
  13. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    I'm a little disturbed by this oral tradition thing. If anything, it should be less dependable than a book. People forget things and add things to stories they have, unconsciously even.

    Another thing: all of the examples you supplied of your surviving oral tradition really didnt have anything to do with religion at all. That's like some historical scholar confirming that village 'whatever its name' which is mentioned in the bible, was indeed standing and functioning at the time the bible places it in. It's great that the bible contains little facts here and there, but we're not going to bet our lives on the entire thing just because of one consistentcy. In my opinion, factual historical groundwork should be a given in something that claims to hold any truth at all!
     
  14. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Damn, Ceridwen! Your arguments are scathing and infraggable....
     
  15. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    Actually I left out the religious parts... culture and religon are closely intwined....

    anyway... the rest of the imbalance story (really shortend) basicaly says that to punnish man the animals held a great council and decided to kill them off with disease... eventually the plant nations took pity on man and offered to help if they would remember to honor the animal and plant nations and never kill needlessly again...

    funny how the worst viruses are zoopathic... HIV, Influenza, Plague, Malaria....

    Books change from one printing/translation to another.. they fade and decay away... so I don't see how oral tradition is any worse... the storykeepers for the tribes are held to enormously high standard and it takes years to learn the stories so you don't change them...

    anyway, I was just pointing out that oral tradition is not completely unrelyable... as mr.spink. suggested.
    and you were the one who asked about holy books so I gave you an answer on why I don't have one...

    wa:-do
     
  16. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    painted wolf-

    Why would the stories in the Bible be any less reliable than oral stories about animals holding councils to punish man? I know the stories aren't the same, but still- neither of them have any scientific basis.

    Do you really think that animals literally had a council together? It sounds like a story to me that was used to explain the observations of disease, before scientific explainations came around.
     
  17. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    "Actually I left out the religious parts... culture and religon are closely intwined...."

    Yes... yes indeed religion and culture are very closely intertwined... very interesting... *scratches chin*... I wonder why that is...GOT IT!!!

    Religion was created by early man to fill in his many gaps of understanding. Being that one's culture is the true ruler of their life, it would only make sense that the resulting religion would fit in nicely.

    But thats off topic. I agree with Mr. Spinkles, both with what he said and in his inquiry as to whether or not you believe the animals really got organized and laid down the law.

    (...hhmmm, they [the animals] are much more powerful than we could have ever imagined... things aren't boding well for us in the future...)
     
  18. reebs

    reebs New Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5
    Ratings:
    +0
    Personally, I don't have any problem with the Bible. Like anything, it has it's lessons to be learned and if we look hard enough, we can apply those lessons to our everyday life. The Bible is only as reliable as the reader wants it to be. If someone, such as myself, wants to believe and have faith then the Bible has a great deal to offer. It's funny, I wasn't very spiritual until last November. The only reason is my dad being diagnosed with an incurable disease. It saddens me to think that it takes something this horrible to understand God and the way he works. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't know how he works, but I have my ideas.
    I wish that everybody took the chance to read the Bible, go to Mass and really try to learn something. Maybe you will gain more assurance that God does exist and maybe you won't. But I challenge anybody to give it a shot before something like a disease has to strike.
     
  19. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Are you saying that you think your dad's disease came on because you weren't close to god???

    I agree that the bible teaches good lessons, but thats not what we're here to debate. The bible supposedly proves the existence of god, and therefore validates religion. Those are the two points I'm calling into question here.

    I have read the bible and I have gone to church my entire life. Its interesting to me that it was through deep religious study that I can to my present conclusions. Perhaps, being a recent devout, you will acheive the same end.

    You stated something very interesting though, about how it was through tragedy that you came to know god. One of my beliefs is that religion was created by early man to fill in gaps of understanding in his environment, as well as emotional gaps. Imaginary friend extraordinaire.
     
  20. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    248
    Ratings:
    +2
    the Bible doesn't (on the surface at least) set out to prove the existence of God. the existence of God is presupposed throughout. Reading the Bible Doesn't prove the existence of God. I read it over and over and it failed to have the slighted effect on me. Going to Church doesn't prove the existence of God. A thousand miracles doesn't prove the existence of God. A million Christians proclaiming the existence of God doesn't prove the existence of God. studying all the major (and 'minor') religions doesn't prove the existence of God. If God's not in your heart you won't find him anywhere. You've got to open your heart.
     
Loading...