1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured How Paul changed the course of Christianity

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Oct 13, 2018.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13,793
    Ratings:
    +3,315
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    You can't just pick and choose the bits of scripture you happen to like. Accept it all, or reject it all. Jesus said that He had finished His work and He was no more in the world. Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    This explains what Baha’is believe Jesus meant by "judgment day."

    The Day of Judgment
    I do not pick and choose. I simply interpret the verses differently than Christians do.

    Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    I am well aware of these verses and I have discussed them at length with Christians for many years. As such, I already have an interpretation.

    The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven.

    It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It wasthe Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

    Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

    “But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.”
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105
     
    #121 Trailblazer, Nov 8, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,410
    Ratings:
    +154
    Yes, I agree. Now show me a person who has successfully overcome all the temptations of the flesh.

    You say that Muhammad achieved this, but the record of his life shows that he had his failings, too. He was a man who accepted the necessity of war, and in the wars with the Meccans was happy to take life.
    Here is an extract from 'The life of Muhammad' by T.H.Weir, in which the Battle of Bedr is recounted.
    'Many of the principal men of Mecca, and some of Mohammad's bitterest opponents, were amongst the slain, Chief of these was Abu Jahl. Mo'adh brought him to the ground by a blow which cut his leg in two. Mo'adh, in his turn, was attacked by 'Ikrima, the son of Abu Jahl, and his arm nearly severed from his shoulder. As the mutilated limb hanging by the skin impeded his action, Mo'adh put his foot on it, pulling it off, and went on his way fighting. Such were the heroes of Bedr. Abu Jahl was yet breathing when 'Abdullah ran up, and, cutting off his head, brought it to his master. 'The head of the enemy!' exclaimed Mohammad; 'Go! there is none other God but he!' 'There is no other!' responded 'Abdullah, as he cast it gory at the Prophet's feet. 'It is more acceptable to me,' cried Mohammad, 'than the choicest camel in all Arabia.'

    It appears that Muhammad was not always merciful on his prisoners or opponents, and he certainly had a weakness for women, given the numerous (up to 15) women who passed through his harem. Some were wives and others were concubines.
     
    #122 Redemptionsong, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,410
    Ratings:
    +154
    If we can agree that all scripture is inspired, then I am happy to look at interpretation. To do this effectively, scripture must be supported by scripture.

    Jn 17:4: Jesus had finished his work. What was his work?

    The work of Jesus was to save, and this salvation from sin is achieved through the cross, and through resurrection from the dead. The baptism in Holy Spirit promised by Jesus to his followers could only come after His resurrection, and ascension to heaven.
    Luke 2:11, 'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.'
    Luke 1:68,69. 'Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;'
    Matthew 20:17,18,19. 'And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, Behold we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.' [Jesus telling his disciples how he would die.]

    At the time of his crucifixion he said, It is finished [Jn 19:30], meaning that his work of ministry and sacrifice was complete. The payment for sin had been made.

    Judgment is not a part of this work. Judgment falls to the King of Kings who will return from heaven at the appointed time.

    In John 6:40 it says, 'And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.'

    The other passages that you refer to in John are connected to the Kingdom of God.
    You can only have a visible kingdom on earth if you have the king present, and a territory to reign over. When Jesus came first time he was anointed as the king (as king David was at age 30) but did not take up His sovereign role until raised to heaven. The words attached to the cross, authorized by Pilate, made it known that this man was Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews. Thereafter, when he ascended to heaven, that's the position that Jesus assumed. He has since been acknowledged by many as the Messiah and Saviour of the world.

    It's quite right that Jesus should say that his kingdom is not of this world. He seeks the lost and wins souls through faith. His kingdom is a spiritual, not physical kingdom. The Church of Christ on earth today is not visible, or a denomination; it is a body of believers united by the Spirit of Christ. Because the true body of Christ is a spiritual body, it is not of this world.
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,410
    Ratings:
    +154
    Sorry, Trailblazer, there are some points I missed on my first time of reading.

    If Baha'u'llah came to complete the work that Jesus started then he would not be saying anything that was not scriptural! Yet, he is not acknowledging Jesus Christ as the one and only Saviour from sin. It is the Lord, Jesus Christ, who is the one and only Good Shepherd. It is He who deserves the praise. To direct your praise to any other is a form of idolatry.
     
    #124 Redemptionsong, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13,793
    Ratings:
    +3,315
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I overcame them and that means that there are others who have done likewise. I gave up sex when I realized it was interfering with my relationship with God, and I never looked back. They say people think about sex about 6 times a day, but I never think about it at all unless I see a post on a forum, and then I just mosey on by. :D

    I am no longer a prisoner of my desires like I used to be. I am free. Jesus and Paul and Baha'u'llah were right about the desires of the flesh, that's for sure. I do not need the Law to realize what is best for me, all I need are the Writings of Baha'u'llah... :)

    “I sorrow not for the burden of My imprisonment. Neither do I grieve over My abasement, or the tribulation I suffer at the hands of Mine enemies. By My life! They are My glory, a glory wherewith God hath adorned His own Self. Would that ye know it!

    The shame I was made to bear hath uncovered the glory with which the whole of creation had been invested, and through the cruelties I have endured, the Day Star of Justice hath manifested itself, and shed its splendor upon men.

    My sorrows are for those who have involved themselves in their corrupt passions, and claim to be associated with the Faith of God, the Gracious, the All-Praised.

    It behoveth the people of Bahá to die to the world and all that is therein, to be so detached from all earthly things that the inmates of Paradise may inhale from their garment the sweet smelling savor of sanctity, that all the peoples of the earth may recognize in their faces the brightness of the All-Merciful, and that through them may be spread abroad the signs and tokens of God, the Almighty, the All-Wise. They that have tarnished the fair name of the Cause of God, by following the things of the flesh—these are in palpable error!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 100-101

    That is not to say that people have to give up sex. That was my choice because I want to be detached from all earthly things, not just sex. Sex is allowed under Baha'i Law, but only between a married man and woman, just as in Christianity and Islam.

    I will get back to the rest of your post and other posts later, I have to go to work now. :)
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    17,001
    Ratings:
    +1,133
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe I didn't find that in the text. I did find a statement that he didn't offend the law but that is not the same thing.

    I believe the Bible refers to those who were Jewish believers in Jesus and yet believed the law must be kept as Judaizers.

     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    17,001
    Ratings:
    +1,133
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe it is well grounded in John 14 and elsewhere.

    I believe I am willing to challenge that interpretation.

    I believe it makes perfect sense. I believe your reasoning process must be flawed.

    I believe there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest the possibility.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13,793
    Ratings:
    +3,315
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    So I guess your point is that Jesus is unique because only Jesus was sinless, according to your definition of sin, and that God could not speak through anyone else except Jesus.

    You can find pretty much anything on the internet. There were reasons why war was necessary as was taking a life. You cannot assume that Muhammad had a “weakness for women” just because He had many wives. That was customary in those days and there were reasons what men had many wives that were not sexual. Women back then needed to be married for protection, so if their husband diedin battle or for another reason another man would take her as a wife in order to protect her. The Qur’an allows a man to have up to four wives, but it is recommended to have only one.

    I do not know a lot about Muhammad and Islam. I suggest you talk to a Muslim about Muhammad, there are many Muslims on this forum.

    By the way, while looking through my Word documents I found what I had been looking for about sin.

    Dying for Our Sins

    “The Bible says "[f]or all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" 37 but for Bahá'ís this description does not apply to the various Manifestations of God such as Abraham or Zoroaster any more than it applies to Jesus Christ. 'Abdu'l-Bahá says: "[f]or these Holy Souls [the Manifestations] are pure from every sin and sanctified from faults." 38

    They are all pure and sinless, not by virtue of the physical conditions surrounding their advents, but because the spiritual nature of the Manifestation of God is different from that of the ordinary human. Whilst they share with us the human condition: that is they are born, live out their lives on earth, suffer weaknesses such as hunger and illness, enjoy human emotions such as love, and eventually they suffer physical death (see endnote 30) - nevertheless they have a different spiritual nature than the rest of humanity. "The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent" 39 and are "pure from sin". 40”

    37 Bible, "Romans" 3:23
    38 `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p170
    39 Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavours, p72
    40 `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p170

    Dying for Our Sins
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13,793
    Ratings:
    +3,315
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I do not have any issue with Jesus Christ being the Lord and Savior although both those words can have more than one connotation and more than one man (Manifestation of God) can be defined as Lord and Savior. It all depends upon how you define the words and what one is being saved from. Christians believe that Jesus came to save us from original sin and I believe that Jesus came to save us from our sinful nature. I see no point splitting hairs over that distinction since it amounts to the same thing regarding the “mission” of Jesus. I also believe the cross sacrifice was necessary to accomplish that mission, as Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus offered Himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. I believe that the teachings of Jesus were also very important to address sin.
    Baha’u’llah was the King of Kings.
    I agree that everyone who saw the Son and believed in Him had everlasting life during the dispensation of Jesus, up until Baha’u’llah came claiming to be the return of Christ. It is questionable whether they will have everlasting life now, during the dispensation of Baha’u’llah.If we interpret what Baha’u’llah wrote literally they will not have it, but exactly what that will mean in their afterlife is not specified.

    “Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213


    “The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
    ‘and I will raise him up at the last day.' What does that mean, raise him up?

    That says nothing about the same man Jesus returning to earth on the last day. It says that Jesus will raise the Father up on the last day. Jesus did so from heaven when He and the Father sent Baha’u’llah. However, as long as Christians hold to the belief that the Comforter and Spirit of truth are the indwelt Holy Spirit, it is impossible for them to understand the “true meaning” of the verses in John 14, 15 and 16. This is a great stumbling block.

    Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Admittedly, I do not know the scripture as well as you do, but I am familiar with the following verses that Christians have cited as the reason they believe in the indwelt Holy Spirit. The way I interpret those verses is that those present in the house where they were sitting were filled with the Holy Spirit, meaning they were greatly affected by it, not that it actually entered their bodies.

    I am sure there are other verses you could cite but I think that there has been a great misunderstanding about the Holy Spirit and what it actually is. It is the Bounty of God that comes to humanity by way of a Manifestation of God. Jesus and Baha’u’llah both brought it so Jesus was a Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Baha’u’llah did exactly what the Bible says the Comforter and Spirit of Truth would do. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

    Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
    You are absolutely correct, and Baha’u’llah is the king whose teachings and laws are now ruling over the earth, and even though few people realize it as yet, there will come a time when everyone will know.
    Although I am not familiar with the verses that support that belief, I cannot argue with that since I believe that Jesus was the Messiah and Saviour of the world.
    I can agree with that too. The only thing I do not agree with is that the same Jesus in the same body will return from heaven on the clouds to rule the earth. If you want to provide me the verses that you think indicate that will happen, I can explain what I believe they mean.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13,793
    Ratings:
    +3,315
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Baha’u’llah came to complete the work Jesus started but Baha’u’llah had His own scriptures which we call Writings, and they do not contradict the Bible in any manner shape or form.

    As I have been saying to Christians for years, the disagreements between Christians and Baha’is is all because of the difference in our interpretations of scriptures.

    Baha’u’llah did acknowledge Jesus as a Savior from sin.

    “We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

    Baha’u’llah does not claim to be a Savior from sin because that was not His mission. His mission was to unite humanity into one people and bring justice and peace and establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

    Jesus was the Good Shepherd but clearly Jesus did not unite humanity into one fold. Jesus said He would do that when He returns.

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    There is no competition between Christ and Baha’u’llah. The Baha’i Faith gives high praise to both.

    “Know that the attributes of perfection, the splendor of the divine bounties, and the lights of inspiration are visible and evident in all the Holy Manifestations; but the glorious Word of God, Christ, and the Greatest Name, Bahá’u’lláh, are manifestations and evidences which are beyond imagination, for They possess all the perfections of the former Manifestations; and more than that, They possess some perfections which make the other Manifestations dependent upon Them. So all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!” Some Answered Questions, pp. 149-150

    In many of His Writings Baha’u’llah says “We” and what He means is Himself and Jesus. Both are the same Spirit of God so in that sense they are not really separate.

    “O CONCOURSE of Christians! We have, on a previous occasion, revealed Ourself unto you, and ye recognized Me not. This is yet another occasion vouchsafed unto you. This is the Day of God; turn ye unto Him… The Beloved Oneloveth not that ye be consumed with the fire of your desires. Were ye to be shut out as by a veil from Him, this would be for no other reason than your own waywardness and ignorance. Ye make mention of Me, and know Me not. Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…. “O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate. Rend the veils asunder by the power of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bounteous, and enter, then, in My name My Kingdom. Thus biddeth you He Who desireth for you everlasting life… We behold you, O children of the Kingdom, in darkness. This, verily, beseemeth you not. Are ye, in the face of the Light, fearful because of your deeds? Direct yourselves towards Him… Verily, He (Jesus) said: ‘Come ye after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.’ In this day, however, We say: ‘Come ye after Me, that We may make you to become quickeners of mankind.’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 91
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13,793
    Ratings:
    +3,315
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Go on ahead and explain how the indwelt Holy Spirit has taught you all things, called to remembrance what Jesus said, testified of Jesus, glorified Jesus, received of Jesus, and shewed it unto you, guided you into all truth, spoke what He heard and shewed you things to come, and reproved the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.

    Don’t only explain it, provide the evidence.

    I believe there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest the possibility that the Spirit of God lives inside of human bodies and talks to them. If it did, there would not be so many contradictory Christian beliefs since God does not contradict Himself. That is logic.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,617
    Ratings:
    +1,865
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Hello again, my friend. Shabbat Shalom.

    I know what you mean about not having the time. to study. We all must work, and there are family obligations. I'm reminded of the song Tevye sings in Fiddle on the Roof:
    If I were rich I'd have the time that I'd like to sit in the synagogue and pray
    And even have a seat by the Eastern Wall
    And I'd discuss the the sacred books with the learned men seven hours every day!
    And that would be the sweetest thing of all...

    In Judaism, the Prophet is an oracular office. It exists in conjunction with the other governmental offices: the King, the priesthood, and the judges (and Sanhedrin). It is the job of the prophet to tell the King whether to go to war or make peace, and to speak for God to the people. Moses was the first and greatest prophet, because he heard the very voice of God, whereas the other prophets heard God indirectly through dreams and visions. Because in Israel we had separation of powers, you couldn't be i.e. a King and a prophet or a priest and a prophet, any more than someone can be both the President and sit on the Supreme Court.

    People you listed who we think are NOT Prophets
    Abraham
    David
    Solomon

    We do not believe that human beings are manifestations of God

    Abraham was not the first monotheist. For example, you had Noah. Abraham was beloved by God -- it doesn't really say why, unless you presume that God looks forward in time to Abraham being willing to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham was "called out" of Ur, meaning he was called out of idolatry, to establish the covenant people, a priestly people. The Children of Israel are promised to be a blessing to the nations. Among a great many other things such as repairing the world, we are meant to bring ethical monotheism to the world. For ourselves, because we are the priests of the world, we have additional rules we are to adhere to that humanity need not follow. And I daresay that God is stricter with us than with other peoples. All of this starts with Abraham, our Patriarch.
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,617
    Ratings:
    +1,865
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I realize you are a sola fide Protestant and that I'm not going to change your mind. I'm simply pointing out that:
    1. There are other Christians who interpret the same New Testament differently.
    2. The Tanakh stands on its own. It does not need the New Testament for fulfillment.

    Certainly God can, has, and does discipline the Children of Israel for disobedience (especially Idolatry and senseless hatred for each other). However, he has brought us back to the land, and miraculously protected us from our enemies. I'd say we are in his good graces.
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,617
    Ratings:
    +1,865
    Religion:
    Judaism
    No No No. LOL I'm not saying that God is the angel. I'm saying that God is manifesting through the angel, meaning that the angel is acting as God's mouthpiece. Hope this clears up the misunderstanding.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,617
    Ratings:
    +1,865
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar." New International Version

    Paul made his defense: "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar, have I sinned in anything." Berean Literal Bible

    while Paul said in his own defense, "I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." New American Standard Bible

    All of them mean the same thing: Jewish law was not broken.


    Judaizers means something very specific:: a Jew who insists that Gentile believers must be circumcized and come under the Law (IOW become Jews). At the Council of Jerusalem there were Judaizers present, arguing for this.

    Jewish believers in Jesus who are "zealous for Torah" BUT not trying to force it on Gentile believers were not "Judaizers."
     
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,410
    Ratings:
    +154
    What 'Dying for Our Sins' highlights is a fundamental difference between the Baha'i and Christian faiths. Where does the truth lie?

    Psalm 89:48. 'What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

    2 Samuel 14:14. 'For we must needs die, and as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.'

    The Word is clear, 'For we must needs die'; and the reason is given in Genesis.
    'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.' [Gen.2:17]

    Adam and Eve transgressed God's law by eating of the forbidden fruit. They both died. And all their descendants die.

    'In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.'

    There is no indication that Adam or Eve would have died had they not sinned. Sin leads to death.

    You might say, But I don't believe in Original Sin. Well, do you believe that all men die? For the evidence of original sin is death. I see it all around me! All men are sinners, and the evidence is death.

    Did Baha'u'llah die? Yes. Somewhere there is a grave with his bones in.
    Did Muhammad die? Yes. Somewhere there is a grave with his bones in.
    Did Jesus die? Yes. Will you find his bones? No. He is the firstfruits of the harvest, and as yet no one else has been resurrected to eternal life. The first resurrection takes place at the time of His return.
    I Corinthians 15:23. 'But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they that are Christ's at his coming.'

    Did Jesus ascend bodily to heaven? Yes. But read the scriptures and you will see that it was in a transformed body. It was no longer mortal but immortal. No longer corruptible, but changed into an incorruptible body.

    1 Corinthians 15:42. 'So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:'

    There is no question that Jesus' body had changed after resurrection from the dead. He appears and disappears at will. [See Luke 24:31]
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,410
    Ratings:
    +154
    We may disagree on much, IndigoChild, but I love the sentiment of Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof. It speaks to me of Psalm 19!

    I also want to say that I agree that the Tanakh is able to stand on its own. It was from the Tanakh alone that all the quotations of scripture in the New Testament come! Jesus only refers to the Tanakh - no other book! The apostles only knew one scripture - the Tanakh. What the New Testament does is make known the arrival of the Saviour from sin. And it was written in Greek, despite being written by Jews. This is because God knew that the audience would be universal, and the universal language of the times was Greek.

    As regards interpretation of scripture, I believe it right to use scripture to clarify scripture. All evidence external to the scriptures is of secondary value. Why would a perfect God, with perfect knowledge, not provide the perfect Word?

    You'll find that in my disagreements with you, I will always try to provide supporting scripture. My arguments are not personal, they are concerned solely with Truth.

    As regards your final paragraph, I do have some reservations regarding Jews under the law being 'in his good graces'. The return from exile has begun, but have the Children of Israel really repented of their sin? Are you not now looking for a human Messiah as Saviour? Are you not now looking to rebuild a temple so that animal sacrifices can begin again? I do believe that the whole world is about to be shaken. Will the Jews escape this shaking?
    Leviticus 26:18, 'And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then will I punish you seven times more for your sins.' [note the SEVEN TIMES. See verses 24,28]
    Daniel 9:11. 'Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.'

    What makes you think you are in God's 'good graces'? What do you make of Daniel 12:1-3?
    How, also, can some awake to everlasting contempt if 'all Israel shall be saved'? Does this indicate that not all Jacob is Israel?
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13,793
    Ratings:
    +3,315
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    That is what I’d be doing if I had the time, discussing the sacred books and that which is related to God rather than the material world, which does not interest me much. I have the money to retire now so I would have more time but it is a long story why I do not do so at this time. :(
    Wow, I did not know any of that about the “separation of powers.” In the Baha’i Faith, when he was alive, it was the job of the Prophet Baha’u’llah to tell the Kings whether to go to war or make peace, and to speak for God to the people. Baha’u’llah wrote many Tablets to the Kings and rulers of the earth, as well as to all of the world’s religious leaders, but they did not heed his call. Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

    I believe that Moses was the greatest Prophet of Judaism because he heard the Voice of God directly and that the other Prophets were subsidiary since they did not hear from God directly. Do you in Judaism believe that the dreams and visions of the Prophets are completely accurate?
    If they are not Prophets, then what do you consider them as? I see that below you said that Abraham was your Patriarch. What do you mean by that?
    Baha’is do not believe that a Manifestation of God is an ordinary human being although he has a human nature.

    A Manifestation of God is another term for a Prophet such as Moses whom God spoke to directly. That is differentiated from the other prophets who had visions and dreams.

    Baha’is believe that the Holy Manifestations of God possess two stations: one is the physical station, and one the spiritual. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality.

    Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

    The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

    I am not exactly certain which Prophets are to be considered Manifestations of God. There is no actual list. Although these are the ones who are commonly cited: Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah, I do not know where this list originated. If it is not in the original Writings of Baha’u’llah, or in the original writings of Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi, who were the appointed interpreters of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, then it is not authoritative... I want to look into this some more, I just need the time.

    I remembered reading about Abraham and Moses, so I decided to do a search in the Kitab-i-Iqan, which is considered the second most holy book of the Baha’i Faith. It goes on to say that a star is always seen in the visible heaven every time God manifests Himself, so I assume that means that Abraham would be considered a Manifestation of God.

    “Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.

    After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63
    I guess you could say that there are some similarities between Judaism and the Baha’i Faith. We are meant to repair the world and reestablish the fact that there is only One God that all religions should worship. We are also meant to establish the Oneness of mankind, which was the primary message of Baha’u’llah. What is also similar to Judaism is that Baha’is have strict Laws that we follow, but they only apply to us, not to anyone else. Those Laws are in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas. which is considered The Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith.

    “Throughout, it is the relationship of the individual soul to God and the fulfilment of its spiritual destiny that is the ultimate aim of the laws of religion. “Think not”, is Bahá’u’lláh’s own assertion, “that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power.” His Book of Laws is His “weightiest testimony unto all people, and the proof of the All-Merciful unto all who are in heaven and all who are on earth”.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Introduction, pp. 2-3
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13,793
    Ratings:
    +3,315
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I fully agree with that. :)
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,617
    Ratings:
    +1,865
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Rejecting Jesus was never the reason for the diaspora in the first place. It was our sinat chinam, groundless hatred of one another. This broke a pivotal commandment, Do not hate your brother in your heart, Leviticus19:17. In fact, a big reason why the Jews lost the war was because the two Jewish generals were at each others throats. Jews were literally killing each other. The temple will be rebuilt when we have finally learned ahavat chinam, to love without cause. The story of Kamtza and bar Kamtza is the symbol of Jews' hatred of one another. You can read the story here: Kamtza and Bar Kamtza - The Story of Tisha B’Av

    Sure there will be a terrible war in the final days, but I'm not worried about it at this time. Compared to a thousand years ago, or even 200 years ago, heck even 100 years ago, there just isn't the kind of international war there once was. Things aren't perfect, but the truth is that we live in a relatively peaceful time.

    Like I already said, I think we are back in God's graces because we have returned to the land, and have triumphed over the overwhelming forces of our enemies, which looks kind of miraculous.
     
Loading...