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How Much of the New Testament Is Actually New?

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I completely agree. However, Paul doesn't attach these good works and obedience to salvation, therefore they are of no use in Christian terms.
Well, when we read Matthew chapter 7 through, or John chapter 15 v1-17, or other such passages, then we get that those without such fruits -- the good works that come from faith, actual real works -- will lacking them be 'thrown into the fire'.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well, when we read Matthew chapter 7 through, or John chapter 15 v1-17, or other such passages, then we get that those without such fruits -- the good works that come from faith, actual real works -- will lacking them be 'thrown into the fire'.
But that's Jesus talking, who supported observing the Torah. WE were discussing Paul, who formed the theology that the church adopted.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
But that's Jesus talking, who supported observing the Torah. WE were discussing Paul, who formed the theology that the church adopted.
Yes, this is a common view many have had, but notice Paul is very often trying to get people to realize the amazing gift being given them, and not fail to realize it.

Speaking to those accustomed to earning righteousness by good works, Paul emphasizes to them the message they most need: to realize their works aren't perfect enough, but instead the reality is as in Isaiah chapter 55: a truly free gift from God.

Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you without money, come, buy, and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost!

Yet nevertheless == Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.

So == Romans 13:8 Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love. For he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. (and continuing as above in post #78)

Notice also how Jesus says:

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6 NIV
 

Batya

Always Forward
First of all, you can’t use Romans as a biblical standard, because Romans wasn’t biblical when it was written. Second, Paul’s position is against specific law-keeping as a determination for righteousness. The gospels point us away from that thought as well. It’s not the outward keeping of laws, but the inward digestion of the law of love.
We can use Romans as a standard of the understanding they had of the tanach, in light of their belief in Yeshua.
Paul is against the notion that by keeping the Torah we can earn our own salvation, he is not saying to not keep it at all. His writings can be confusing, seeming one minute to say don't keep the law, another saying the law is by no means made void, but he himself states multiple times that he kept the law and that he had not spoken against it.
The gospels do not point us away from the Torah. Yeshua said that those who practiced lawlessness (torah-lessness) would not enter the kingdom of heaven. Also he said to do as the scribes/Pharisees said, and they were teaching the Torah, of course.
This outward/inward stuff, isn't what is inside going to be manifested in what we do outwardly? To me it just seems like an excuse to say we have it in our hearts but don't have to do it outwardly.
 

Batya

Always Forward
The Law was for the Jews.
The New Covenant is for all people, including Jews, and is the new way to do what God wants us to do.
The law was for Israel, and all who became part of Israel. Anyone who believes in the NT should know that those who accept Yeshua are grafted in to Israel, thus we are not excused from keeping the law on that basis.
The new covenant is for all who are, or become part of, Israel. It is only made with Israel. Please show me a specific example to show why you would think otherwise.
Also please show me where YHWH's standard of righteousness changed. If Yeshua came to lead us in ways that were against the Torah, he would not be the Messiah.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
We can use Romans as a standard of the understanding they had of the tanach, in light of their belief in Yeshua.
Paul is against the notion that by keeping the Torah we can earn our own salvation, he is not saying to not keep it at all. His writings can be confusing, seeming one minute to say don't keep the law, another saying the law is by no means made void, but he himself states multiple times that he kept the law and that he had not spoken against it.
The gospels do not point us away from the Torah. Yeshua said that those who practiced lawlessness (torah-lessness) would not enter the kingdom of heaven. Also he said to do as the scribes/Pharisees said, and they were teaching the Torah, of course.
This outward/inward stuff, isn't what is inside going to be manifested in what we do outwardly? To me it just seems like an excuse to say we have it in our hearts but don't have to do it outwardly.
Gee, I wish you had a good grasp of this stuff...
 

Batya

Always Forward
But what was Paul saying in this lament? He's not saying you cannot overcome sin in this. He's contrasting that the fleshly nature draws him away from God, when the spiritual part of himself wishes for something other than the suffering that causes. He then gives the remedy, which he speaks of in many places in his writings, Christ in you. In other words, by surrendering to the Divine, you are able to live free from sin. "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Now you can read that literally, that human flesh itself is an evil that attacks the spirit, but I don't think he meant it literally. Metaphorically, it means that the natural desires of the flesh can drag us down spiritually. But you hear in many places in the NT how we can "overcome the flesh". That means, you can live free from sin. It doesn't require you to physically die first, and all this happens later on. What good is that? The expectation is to overcome the flesh, in this life.
And Paul says that the law is spiritual, and that we are being carnal if we do not follow the Torah. Roman's 8:5-8

I just making an important distinction. Sin does not come when the act happens. Rather the sin causes the act to happen. That is why Jesus made a point to call out the legalists, the religionists who place the rules of the texts as all-important, that while they may say they have never committed adultery, or murder, or, you name it, if they have been desiring it, wanting that, feeling that, sending that out energetically to another, they are already sinning right there, without doing something physically.

That's an important lesson to understand about the nature of sin. It's the intent of the heart, that is the caldron of sin. But that can be replaced with Love instead. That's the message of Grace.
That still doesn't take away from the sinfulness of our actions which are contrary to the Torah. Whether someone says they have kept it perfectly is beside the point, we sin, sin is what caused our separation from God to begin with, in his mercy he sent Yeshua to reconcile us and to redeem of from the bondage of sin, therefore we should do our best to stop walking in that sin. This is true love, not us seeking to earn our way.

There is a distinction to be made here as well. It's one of those things that's a fine distinction to make, but it's a watershed point of understanding. I think someone could fulfill the Torah, never knowing one thing it says. The point is that it is not in following the Torah, in the sense of observances, and rituals, and various rules and customs, such as circumcision, or dietary restrictions, or observances of days, etc. But they would be following the Torah in what is encapsulated beautifully by Jesus himself saying about the Two Great Commandments; "love God... and love your neighbor as yourself," when he pointedly added, "Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets".

Now some folks read "Love God" to mean, follow all those laws, diets, rites, days, etc. That by doing those you are "loving God". But I do not believe that is really what Jesus meant. It certainly isn't something earlier Christianity ended up adopting from the teachings of Jesus, where there was "neither Jew nor Greek, but all are one in Christ". Clearly they did not take "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength to mean following those practices. Rather to love God, means to do no harm to others. You don't, because love does not envy, it does not boast, etc.
You can think loving Elohim doesn't include following all those things he has laid out, including the sabbath, etc., but that is not borne out in the scriptures, certainly not in the tanach, and not in the NT either. The audience here was speaking to when he said "On these two commandments..." fully understood that he was speaking of the whole law.
The apostles, I might add, did indeed keep the Torah. They kept the feasts, the sabbath, and in the famous Acts 10 passage, Peter, some time after Yeshua had died, was repulsed by the thought of eating unclean animals. Did he really not know that it was "okay now"? It is clearly explained later in the chapter that it was about associating with men, not about eating unclean animals. Christians actually keep a lot of the Torah, things like loving your neighbor, don't steal/murder, etc, help you're enemy, on and on, why is it that when these few things are mentioned... sabbath, feasts, eating clean, etc., they bristle and claim legalism?

Rather to love God, means to do no harm to others. You don't, because love does not envy, it does not boast, etc.
To say that, you take: 1)Love God and 2)Love your neighbor, and make it: 1)Love your neighbor.

Yes, I believe that if you have love you won't sin. "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:10. If you walk in love, you don't sin. It's a rather simple formula. ;)

Now as far as Jesus turning away worker of iniquity, let's be clear. They were religionists, claiming the name of Jesus, but not walking in love. "I never knew you", is the response from the Divine. There was nothing that they were doing that came from that as the source. He even says, it's not those who say lord, lord, or claim they are followers of Jesus, but those who do God's will - meaning, they walk in the Way of Divine Love, and as a result, flowing out from that Love within that as the source, the "love their neighbor as themselves". Love is the fulfillment of the law, ~Ro. 13:10
In Matthew 7 he was specifically turning away those who were "workers of iniquity." Yes, we can go through the motions and yet be as nothing due to our heart being wrong (or without love 1Corinthians 13), but true love is an action. Love is evidenced in our actions (if you love me, keep my commandments), otherwise it is just a feeling.

If we are filled by the Spirit of God, "in him", in other words, then you won't sin. It's not a matter of you "should not sin", in other words make an effort to not sin. There should be no effort necessary. It shouldn't enter into your heart to sin.

Think of it in terms of laughing. If you're laughing, do you have to try to not be angry? No, you don't. It doesn't enter into your mind or heart to be angry, if you are happy, or laughing, or joyus. Would you ever say to someone who is smiling and full of joy, "You need to try to not be angry"? That makes no sense. Anger can't exist with happiness, and sin can't exist with love.
So you think you don't sin? I doubt you think that, but that's the way it comes across. It's a nice way to think of it, but the fact is we still sin. That's why we are to repent daily ("the Lord's prayer" etc), we are in a spiritual battle, and if that is the case, there is effort to be made. We would be perfect if he didn't want us to make effort. Seeking and striving after righteous living, desiring to follow Yeshua's example is not wrong. Yes, we are redeemed and not subject to the curse of death under sin, and because of that we should hate sin and flee from it.

Eph 5:8-11 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spiritb is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

Of course righteousness comes from within. At a certain stage of moral development it certain does, and should. There are whole fields of development that demonstrate this is a normal progression from early externalized rules imposed upon you, to you internalizing them as a moral agent. You don't just not doing something because someone might catch you, for instance. You don't do it because you lived by internal principles.

Although, some may never advance that far in life, it's truly a sign of moral maturity. Morality expands in its reach and understanding. Any area of development is like that as well, starting as rules outside of you, to internalizing them in understanding and freedom of movement. At later stages of maturity, you don't need to be told anymore, with long lists of do's and don'ts, like this hilarious sign I found at a school while I was out biking last summer. :)

53374_fd543076318656c780b5796a4bfcbcc9.jpg


Hopefully, they will eventually internalize good conduct, and not need to be told by a schoolmaster anymore. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." ~Gal. 3:24
Right, as you say, there are things that must be learned, and that then become a very part of who we are, like the recess rules. Just because someone accepts Yeshua, it doesn't mean they automatically know everything they should be doing. There is certainly a change of heart, but there is still much to learn, for example: not taking revenge, learning to love one's wife as Yeshua loves us, etc. We should always be seeking to do those things which please the Father.

1 Tim 1:9-11 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

If we are walking in lawlessness, we have the Torah to show us the way we ought to be going, YHWH's will is shown to us through his Torah. It is not legalistic; what he wants is what we want, and how much the more should we seek to do his will after all he has done for us? We are justified by faith, as we could never justify ourselves on account of our or own goodness, but that doesn't mean we should go ahead and do those things he hates.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The law was for Israel, and all who became part of Israel. Anyone who believes in the NT should know that those who accept Yeshua are grafted in to Israel, thus we are not excused from keeping the law on that basis.
The new covenant is for all who are, or become part of, Israel. It is only made with Israel. Please show me a specific example to show why you would think otherwise.
Also please show me where YHWH's standard of righteousness changed. If Yeshua came to lead us in ways that were against the Torah, he would not be the Messiah.

We do not first become grafted into Israel under the Old Covenant and then accept the New Covenant. We are grafted in because of the New Covenant which was for Israel. I guess that means the acceptance of the covenant and the grafting in happen simultaneously, but that does not matter, what matters is that the New Covenant is the New Covenant. In the New Covenant the Law of Moses is done away with as a means to salvation and we do not keep the law of God by obeying the list of rules in the Law of Moses, but by knowing God and being led by His Spirit.
Yahweh's standard of righteousness has not changed. If you read the sermon on the mount, it looks in places that the bar has been raised when it comes to the Kingdom standards.
Jesus was sent as a light to the Gentiles and so the Gentiles could be saved (Isa 49:6) and that salvation comes through Jesus work on the cross in taking our sins on Himself and being made a sin offering. (see Isa 53)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The law was for Israel, and all who became part of Israel. Anyone who believes in the NT should know that those who accept Yeshua are grafted in to Israel, thus we are not excused from keeping the law on that basis.
The new covenant is for all who are, or become part of, Israel. It is only made with Israel. Please show me a specific example to show why you would think otherwise.
Also please show me where YHWH's standard of righteousness changed. If Yeshua came to lead us in ways that were against the Torah, he would not be the Messiah.

Hi Batya. First of all, you know that I love you, and please read everything in the light that it is not hostile, but meant only in an informative sense from a Judaism perspective.

In order to be adopted into the people of Israel, one has to have the consent of Israel. One cannot just show up on our door and announce that you are a new member of our family. There is a process of conversion where you not only say "Let your God be our God," but also "Let your people be our people." It means adopting far more than just the 613 commandments of the Torah, but also giving esteem to the Oral Torah, including to the rules of conversion. One of the rules of conversion is that one gives up attachment to Jesus. I'm sorry. You really have to choose.

Now in terms of whether you have to observe the 613 commandments, you don't. There are universal laws that are tucked in there as part (like thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, etc.) and these you must obey. But most of these laws (like the laws regarding clean meats) are given only to Israel. You are not obligated.

However, if you want to keep them out of love, more power to ya.

We do ask that non-Jews not keep the Shabbat in the same manner as Jews (so that it doesn't look like you are impersonating us), but quite honestly, none of you do anyhow, so its not a problem.
 

Batya

Always Forward
Hi Batya. First of all, you know that I love you, and please read everything in the light that it is not hostile, but meant only in an informative sense from a Judaism perspective.

In order to be adopted into the people of Israel, one has to have the consent of Israel. One cannot just show up on our door and announce that you are a new member of our family. There is a process of conversion where you not only say "Let your God be our God," but also "Let your people be our people." It means adopting far more than just the 613 commandments of the Torah, but also giving esteem to the Oral Torah, including to the rules of conversion. One of the rules of conversion is that one gives up attachment to Jesus. I'm sorry. You really have to choose.

Now in terms of whether you have to observe the 613 commandments, you don't. There are universal laws that are tucked in there as part (like thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, etc.) and these you must obey. But most of these laws (like the laws regarding clean meats) are given only to Israel. You are not obligated.

However, if you want to keep them out of love, more power to ya.

We do ask that non-Jews not keep the Shabbat in the same manner as Jews (so that it doesn't look like you are impersonating us), but quite honestly, none of you do anyhow, so its not a problem.
Yes, I know you do, and that goes both ways. :blush:
I do understand what you are saying. I know Judaism doesn't consider us Israel in any way, and I hope it's not too offensive that I asserted that. I am only saying those things which are expressed in the NT writings, and that if someone claims to believe these writings, this is part of the package, as per the very books they hold to so strongly. It is a position that isn't happily looked on by either Jews or traditional Christians.
It's honestly something that lays heavily on my heart, I love the Jewish people very much, and I don't wish to offend or come across as being disrespectful or some kind of copycat. If I didn't believe in Yeshua so strongly, I would no doubt convert to Judaism. It is a very serious thing to reject him though, and there is no going back ever, so due to my steadfast commitment to him, I cannot. I'm sure you of course already know that's how I feel.
I appreciate and value your input. I hope that what I said makes sense, even though my view is not in agreement with yours or that of Judaism.
And yes, I'm quite sure we don't keep the shabbat exactly the same as you. :)
 
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