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Featured How Much of the New Testament Is Actually New?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Batya, Feb 14, 2021.

  1. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we should be keeping the Torah by following God's Spirit in us.
    Do Jews keep the Torah literally or as interpreted for you by Judaism?
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Any verse where Jesus says that?
     
  3. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    It depends, most Jews follow the Torah and the oral Torah, with a few (the Karaites, I believe, although I could be wrong, and perhaps there's a few others besides) who just follow the written Torah. Personally, I believe in scripture alone as the authority, although our understandings of some things that are not so clear in the Torah (such as the way to slaughter animals) come from from Judaism.
     
  4. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    His first priority was Israel, and particularly those in the dispersion.

    Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

    The new covenant was only made with Israel and Judah, though gentiles can become part of the covenant just as Ruth did. Those who come to Messiah really aren't gentiles anymore, they are grafted in to Israel.
     
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Where does Jesus say that if you dont mind me asking?
     
  6. capumetu

    capumetu Active Member

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    You are quite right, neither Jehovah nor Jesus changes, no sinless being will. The only change they can make is to sin.
     
  7. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Roman's 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree

    Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob.

    Isaiah 56:3-5 Do not let the son of the foreigner
    Who has joined himself to the Lord
    Speak, saying,
    “The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
    Nor let the eunuch say,
    “Here I am, a dry tree.”
    4 For thus says the Lord:
    “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
    And choose what pleases Me,
    And hold fast My covenant,
    5 Even to them I will give in My house
    And within My walls a place and a name
    Better than that of sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name
    That shall not be cut off.

    I don't know that Yeshua himself spoke those words, but I believe that all scripture is his word.
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Yes. There are no verses supposedly said by Jesus .
     
  9. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Active Member

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    Nuclear bombs were not around 2,000 years ago when Jesus was alive.

    New weapons require new instructions.

    The United States has been mostly ruled by Christians. It has nukes.

    "Thou shalt not kill" (Old testament commandment of God to the Jews) must be observed. Revelation says that if anyone attacks Iraq, the world will face God's wrath (including Revelation 15 (seven plagues, including COVID)).

    President George W. Bush said that nukes were not off the table (that is, could be used). W. Bush also said that the UN (United Nations) was irrelevant, then he defunded it temporarily. Yet, when he realized that he could not get out of the predicament that he got into, he tried to put terrorist al Sodr in charge, and begged the UN to help him.

    When Hillary Clinton found out that Russia hacked Podesta's emails (her campaign manager) and exposed her cheating scandal (getting debate questions ahead of time), she lashed out at Russia, claiming that she might nuke them.

    In the nuclear age, we need calmer heads and rational thinkingl.

    The New Testament is a new word of God to a new people under new circumstances.

    No longer is it "eye for an eye" but it is "turn the other cheek" and "thou shalt not kill." True, those issues have been around for a long time, but ostensibly Christians should adhere to the standards set by Christ.
     
  10. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Why is that a problem for you?
     
  11. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    I don't believe the US is a Christian nation, if it ever was, I don't know. I believe it is a nation that will be judged as God sees fit.
    In the Torah, YHWH said not to murder, but that did not mean don't go to war, as evidenced by the fact that they did so many times at his instruction. I personally believe that at this time we should not be getting engaged in wars and defending the systems of the world (as in, I myself would not join the military), if my country goes to war that is up to them, and I believe that YHWH's purpose will be done in that, as he says there will be a lot of war near the end of the age. When the Messiah returns, though, he will lead his people against their enemies, so there will again be war, albeit divinely led and sanctioned.
    What about it makes it a new word of God though? Loving your enemy is a tanach precept, not originating in the NT. I am not saying there are no differences, but I want to know just what people think those are. So often I hear that the teachings of Yeshua were so very different than what is in the tanach, but really, most of what he said is already in the tanach.
     
  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    This is a common mistranslation. The Hebrew is לא תרצח which means Thou shalt not murder, as opposed to לא תהרוג, Thou shalt not kill, which isn't written anywhere (except badly translated English bibles and those that copy from them...).
     
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  13. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Yes, but at this point we are not sinless, even Paul talked about how he did those things which he did not want to do. Our sin will be completely taken away when the Messiah returns, when we are given an incorruptible body. However all the particulars of that work out, at some point we will no longer sin.

    Where do you find that breaking the rules is different than sinning? What is falling short of the mark in your opinion? To what point can you break these rules before it becomes sin?

    I never said I thought we justified ourselves by the works of the law. I believe salvation is a free gift, but we are still called to walk in righteousness; not to earn right standing with God, but to do those things which please him. I understand that it is through Yeshua that our heart is cleansed, but just because one keeps the Torah doesn't mean they are trying to earn salvation. If Yeshua came to save us from sin, why would we continue walking in sin? Did the definition of sin change?

    So are you saying you believe that if you have love you won't sin? How does that fit with Yeshua turning people away from the kingdom of heaven because they were "workers of iniquity" i.e. anomia=lawlessness? In the same breath, Paul goes on to say this:

    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

    Right, if we are in him we are not to walk in sin. He came to redeem us from our sins, therefore because of his righteousness in us, we should turn away from said sins. Again though, what is sin? If we have his righteousness in us, does that make it right for us to do those things God has laid out as sin?

    And how do you love God? It's not just a feeling.

    Following the Torah is not just about a bunch of rules, it is very much about a relationship with God. True, keeping the Torah in and of itself does not cleanse your heart, it never has, it does no good to just walk through the actions. That's why throughout the tanach YHWH says he does not delight in their outward appearance of righteousness when their heart is not true to him (for example, Isaiah 1:10-17).
    Keeping the Torah has nothing to do with ego (or shouldn't), it is not about doing it for yourself to make yourself better. It is simply doing what he asks us to do, things that he says are life and blessing. If you think that righteousness comes from within, will that righteousness look different from what he says is righteous in his word? "Being" righteous instead of doing righteously? If you "are" righteous, you would be walking in righteousness, and YHWH tells us what righteousness is.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    It is sad. I think the reason originally comes from the Paul’s teachings that have been misunderstood, or intentionally twisted. By what the New Testament says, people should not obey the law so that they would gain reward from it. People should obey it, because they understand it is good and they love God.

    For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
    1 John 5:3

    It seems to be difficult for many to see that what Paul for example says is much about what is the motive for doing right. It is not very righteous, if person does right only to avoid punishment, or to get reward from God. I think that is why Jesus said:

    For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Mat. 5:20

    I have understood that the Pharisees were outwardly good, they practiced right things to look good for other people, not because they thought it is good and right and loved God.

    So, the law is good and it would be good if person understands it is good, because then he wants to freely obey it. But it is not good, if one obeys it only because he tries to earn salvation or eternal life by doing right. If doing right depends only on what reward person gets from it, it is not good.
     
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  15. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Thank you, yes, I agree. You summed that up very nicely! :)
     
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  16. Inquire of God

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    Having actually read the Old Testament and New Testament several times and having spent decades studying them both, I think I can say with some authority(?) that I see no difference between the God of the Old Testament (Jesus Christ) and the God of the New Testament (Jesus Christ).
    I see a lot of difference in what God was doing based on the people He was dealing with and the goals He had at the time, but this does not mean He changed.
    The titles of these books could be different though. The Old Testament could be called "A group of books based on this other covenant" and the New Testament could called "This other group of books based on yet another covenant."
    In that sense one can see that the New Testament is a Newer Covenant than the Older Covenant that the old testament is based on.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Bible scholars don’t refer to “Old Testament” and “New Testament.” Its a little misleading, and inaccurate. Better terminology is “Hebrew Texts” and “Greek Texts.” If one reads the Tanach with a critical eye, one finds a God who is slow to anger, merciful, and who does not punish as we deserve. We find that most of the 613 Laws deal with compassionate treatment of strangers, aliens, and outsiders. Jesus’ compassion is really an extension of that mercy.
     
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  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I disagree. Waaay too legalistic for Christian thought.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Incorrect. About half of the quotes attributed to Jesus are considered to be authentic.
     
  20. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    How so?
     
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