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Featured How Much of the New Testament Is Actually New?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Batya, Feb 14, 2021.

  1. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Did Yeshua come as a radical revolutionary to do away with an old, outdated system? Is the NT all about grace and love, whereas the tanach was full of wrath and judgment? Does the New Testament lay out new standards for us to live by, doing away with the need to follow the torah?
    These are all things I've heard, and I want to know what y'all think about these and other things, and why. Keep in mind that YHWH does not change.

    Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
    Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    There are a number of issues. The name "New Testament" is based on those writings claim to present a fulfillment of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:9-13.
    The New Covenant is a fulfillment of Malachi 3:6.
    As for Hebrews 13:8 has to do with the resurrected Christ.
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus came as the Jewish Messiah and to bring salvation to the Gentiles also.
    Isa 49:6 he (God) says:
    “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
    to restore the tribes of Jacob
    and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
    I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
    that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
    This is not Israel restoring the tribes of Israel, it is one person.

    Jesus came to bring the New Covenant to the Jews, and which also went to the Gentiles.
    Laws cannot cover all situations unless they are vague.
    The Law of Moses does not cover all situations. It is based on love and Jesus came to teach us how to love God and our neighbour and know God through His words and through putting God's Spirit in our hearts.
    Ezek11:19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
    Jer31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    So the NT is about grace and love and coming wrath of God and about the Kingdom of God which God began with Jesus.
    The Tanach introduces God to us and shows us what He did and what happened on earth and why things are as they are and what He is like and His preparation for the Messiah for the Jews who are His special people and to reach out to all people. It is easy to see the violence in the Tanach and be turned away from God without understanding the reasons. The New Testament leave no doubt about God's heart for us lost humans.
     
  4. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    And if the new covenant is the Torah written in our hearts, we should be keeping the Torah, correct?
     
  5. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus basically established the new covenant that was foretold in Deuteronomy 30:6-9 and Jeremiah 31:31-34.

    Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
    Deuteronomy 30:6-9

    For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
    Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

    Only difference is in the circumcision. Both covenants have it, but in new it is circumcision of heart. But otherwise, the law is still valid and Jesus says:

    "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Mat. 5:17-19
     
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  6. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    God may not change but our perception of Him may well do.
     
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  7. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Not to do away with, but to renew.
     
  8. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    The new Testament is a latecomer.

    I think the early Catholic Church first conceived and wrote the New Testament. Protestants redacted and altered a new version customized for themselves later on.
     
  9. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    I agree, I just wonder why most Christians insist we don't have to keep the torah anymore. If Yeshua had done away with the commandments he would not qualify as the Messiah.
     
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Simplest way to understand it is that the new Testament is the resurrection which is Jesus Christ.

    So God gives a new deal basically. a new covenant with mankind which is new life from the grave. It begins with Jesus and is for anyone who will. This is why all things are new in Jesus Christ and old things are passed away.
     
  11. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Not all old things are passed away though. The new covenant has to be in accordance with the Torah, otherwise it is not legit.
    He didn't just scrap the old one and make up something new, there were specific things laid out in the tanach as to what was involved in the new covenant, and so the new covenant has to be in line with that (which I believe it is).
    I've asked a couple times on this forum and I don't think I've ever gotten an answer... if according to the new covenant, the torah will be written on our hearts, why do most Christians (claiming to be part of the new covenant) say we don't have to keep it?
    Most of what Yeshua taught were Torah principles, if he is our example, why don't we do the things he did?
     
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  12. WhoIsBeast 750

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    if you are worth knowing to put together a puzzle of the seven religions and there is just a message

    think you know everything but it's not
     
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    No. In this you have made a good point.

    I suppose if you're a Jew you're still expected to be circumcised, so that you can be a maintainer of the Torah or a cantor. I remember Paul commenting that the circumcised are entrusted with the oracles of God...so...for that you'd need to be circumcised according to Paul and live the life of the Jew. It might be good if everyone claiming to be an expert had to live like one.

    For everyone else maybe not. If you're not a cantor or anything like that where is the necessity?

    First let me point out that names of power are considered to be (ancient) Egyptian nonsense. Superstitious Egyptians believed that names had power and that knowing the secret name gave one control. In contradiction to that Jews believed that Adam named the animals himself -- the complete opposite of a Egyptian superstition. There is no way in heaven that Abraham's children should ever approve of names of power or the importance of peculiar spellings.

    As for YHWH we aren't supposed to bandy it about like its a power word. That is nonsense.
     
  14. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    I don't use the name for any such reason as that. I was raised calling God Yahweh, and I believe that it is probably similar to how it's supposed to be, so that it's why I use it. Lord and God are just titles, though I don't believe it's wrong to say those.
     
  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    In theory at least, if you are following Christ's example to walk in the law of Love, you will fulfill the law naturally. Not by following the letters of the law, legalistically. But to be the letters of the law in your own person, writing the law of love from the source of the Divine within. For those mature enough in the ways of Jesus, that is nothing you do. It's something you are. So, you don't need to follow the law. You fulfill it in your own being and ways of action.

    How many Christians realize this however.....
     
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  16. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    I don't believe that is biblically substantiated. We have not yet been made sinless, therefore we still need to go by the biblical standard as our measure of what is right and good. We know what sin is by the law (Romans 3:20 b), and sin is transgression of the Torah (1John 3:4).
    Also, the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength- how do we know how to love him? From what I see, it is by walking in his ways. If you love me, keep my commandments. We can't just decide to love him our own way, he is a holy God, and he has laid out the way in which we should walk.
    Our own being and actions do not fulfill the Torah unless we do as he says.
     
  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    This obstructs the answer to your question, because I have to disagree with you about what the word means. If we could name God that would imply we could describe God. The term 'Yahweh' cannot name God as people generally understand God to be: omniscient, transcendent, omnipresent. Here's what I understand, and feel free to disagree. God is invisible, intangible, unnameable, however it is known what the tetragramaton ('Yahweh') refers to. It is a name for something just as a handle on a sword lets one grasp that sword.

    Just as many Christians consider the scriptures to be a dispensation of the holy spirit (and not the entirety of God by themselves), the Jews believe something similar about 'Yahweh', which is their covenant. Correct me if you disagree. When they recite the Shema they invoke that covenant. In English it is translated as "Hear Oh Israel the L-RD thy G-d the L-RD is one," but this is a covenant between humans. Yes it is humans with divine souls, humans in the image of God but humans just as you and I are humans, not God's totality. They are not super aliens or genetic freaks, just people. How can this be? Well by the same token how can Christians have the holy spirit? Its not so difficult to understand. This covenant between them is like a compass, guiding them. The consciences of many together is like the voice of the holy spirit, so I suggest. Why I suggest it is to provide you the opportunity to consider it.
     
  18. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Didn't Jesus say to people that they have been forgiven, and to go and sin no more? Are you saying he didn't actually expect they could? Like saying, go and levitate yourself, or something he knew they could not do? Why would he say that, if he didn't think they could?

    I think you have it upside down. Plus, you are missing the surrounding verses with these citations which will affirm what I am saying. We don't sin because we break the rules. Breaking the rules is the result of sin, or falling short of the mark to begin with. If you were not out of balance to begin with, you would not fall over. It's not the falling over that makes you unbalanced, or out of true.

    With that in mind, we need to add back in Ro. 3:20 a, to preface b.

    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
    In other words, the law is what you measure your actions against your standing or falling. It's not by performing it, you are made righteous. Because even if you follow the letter of the law, yet on the inside you are unbalanced, out of true, even your "good works" are stained by sin. They are as "filthy rags", because they are not coming from a place of love and truth. They are not coming from God as the source.

    Therefore, the next verses conclude,

    21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.​

    In other words, it is the transformation of your person, becoming filled with Divine Love, that your actions do not sin. "Love works no ill," Romans 13:10. Meaning, if you love, you will not be capable of sin. "Go and sin no more," is basically say, "walk in love, and you will sin no more".

    Now 1 John 3:4, you cited. Let's read that in context:

    Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.​

    As you can see, what I have said is very much biblically supported. "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning". Why? Because Christ in them is Divine Love. and "love works no ill". That's why.

    Again, you are coming at this backwards, or upside down. That greatest commandment affirms exactly what I am saying about God within as the source of all external actions, as opposed to us in our egos trying to be "good", with human effort, trying to conform to rules viewed as external to us.

    The first commandment is to love God with your entire being. The reason for this is because it makes us filled with God's Love. Without that Love, we are not capable of seeing the other through the eyes of that Love. The second commandment to love your neighbor as yourself is dependent upon that. If we are self absorbed, we are not able to love another as an extension of ourselves. All our actions are dependent upon connection with that Source of Divine Love, which is God.

    You don't connect to that by obeying a bunch of rules, but your heart is full of jeouslies, desires, resentments, angers, etc. You can follow those to a T, yet still have the heart impure. If you want to truly love your neighbor as yourself, you have to get the ego out of the way trying to gain for itself. And that is why the first commandment is to love God, not with your works, but with your mind, your heart, your intention, and everything in full surrender.

    Nothing that comes from that, originates in the ego. It comes by setting the ego aside as the primary focus, even when it sneakily hides behind supposedly righteous works. And when that happens, there is no need to follow the rule book or the law to "obey God's will". You live it instead. You are it. That is the point of all of it, and what I believe that Jesus intended to teach, but few could understand, being conditioned to think it's something you do, rather than are.

    When it says the law is written on the tablets of the heart, this is what that means. It originates from within you, not from a book of laws external to you which you make an effort to follow. That is what "saved" really means. You are free from the source of sin, or lawlessness.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    From my understanding Jesus came as the expected Jewish Messiah, exactly when Daniel had prophesied for him to come. The Jews were expecting him at that time. They even asked John the Baptist if he was the one? But because he did not aggrandize the Pharisees in the manner that they expected, (but rather castigated them for their twisting of the scriptures and their blatant hypocrisy) he was met with strong resistance. But his death too was prophesied with the Jewish leadership unaware that they were fulfilling scripture by executing their own Messiah. (Psalm 118:22; Matthew 21:42-44)

    Jesus also came to institute the "new covenant", which was also prophesied in Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 31:31-33)
    What would this new covenant mean for the Jewish disciples of Jesus? It meant that they now had the Law and its penalties removed as having accomplished their intended purpose. It was a perfect law given to imperfect people as a constant reminder of their need for a Savior who would rescue them permanently from the curse that it became to them. (Galatians 3:10-14; Romans 10:4)

    As for the Law and the principles behind them, Jesus always stressed the principles of the Law, not just rigid adherence to the letter of it (as the Pharisees did). When he was asked which are the greatest commandments in the Law, Jesus replied....
    Matthew 22:37-40....
    “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.

    The last part of his statement sums up that question of 'did he do away with the commandments?'.
    The only part of the law that was done away with was the requirements for sacrifices. Jesus' sacrifice permanently removed the need for them. He had "fulfilled the Law" as he said.

    As we can see, the two greatest commandments summed up the whole thing. IOW, you cannot break one or both of those two without breaking them all. So as long as we conduct ourselves as Jesus did, giving God our whole-souled devotion and treating our neighbors as we would want to be treated, we will not break any of the other commandments.

    That is how I view things. I hope that has answered your questions.....? :)
     
  20. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    Jesus didn't come to do away with the old covenant, He came to fulfill it on behalf of His elect because not a single one of them could keep the law.
    The Lord Jesus Christ kept the whole of the law perfectly and paid for every past, present and future sin of His elect from every age. So His elect are saved by His righteousness being imputed to them.

    His elect/believers do try to keep the law as much as possible by He knows they will fail and fall into sin everyday, but the good news is His elect won't be judged upon how well they kept the law.

    The New Testament reveals a far more wrathful God than the OT did, how much more wrathful could God be then to cast a sinner into the lake of fire to burn forever alive with no hope of escape.
     
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