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How many times did Jesus die?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Deut 13:1, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    A lot...
    וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו

    B'Motav, kind of sucks that it's in the plural? Singular: Be'Moto

    מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ
    Lamo, kind of sucks that it's in the plural? Singular: Lo

    מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע--בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲו‍ֹנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל
    Avdi, My servant. Kind of sucks that the NATION of Israel, or the Jews were called Avdi, my servant, in: Isaiah 49:3, 45:4, 44:1, 2:21, 41:8... ect...

    I can go on, but you should get the point... Just because your translators choose to be ignorant of the fact, doesn't mean I will.
     
  2. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    One problem. Notice that it's all in Past tense... If it was describing Jesus, it would have been in the FUTURE tense. Isaiah lived 700 years before Jesus, so it must logically follow that he was describing someone before Jesus.
     
  3. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    :confused: not sure what you mean about deaths
     
  4. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    It's very simple, you're not reading an accurate translation. You believe it says with his death we're saved blah blah blah, the problem is the text itself says "with his deaths". Bear in mind that Isaiah CONSTANTLY referred to the Nation of israel in 3rd person singular. Hebrew lets you do that, English doesn't.
     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    i dont think so
    The Christian Greek Scriptures record the prophetic fulfillments of this remarkable chapter of Isaiah, as the following comparisons show: vs. 1—John 12:37, 38; vs. 2—John 19:5-7; vs. 3—Mark 9:12; vs. 4—Matthew 8:16, 17; vs. 5—1 Peter 2:24; vs. 6—1 Peter 2:25; vs. 7—Acts 8:32, 35; vs. 8—Acts 8:33; vs. 9—Matthew 27:57-60; vs. 10—Hebrews 7:27; vs. 11—Romans 5:18; vs. 12—Luke 22:37. Who but God could be the source of such accurate forecasting?

     
  6. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    You don't think Isaiah lived 700 years before Jesus? Then I would have to call you very ignorant.

    Again, why would I care what a translation of the original says? I find it funny that you use one mistranslation to justify another. Furthermore, I really hope you don't think I'm going to go out and buy a copy of the NT to look up those verses. Nor do I care what the NT says. The fact remains Isaiah 53 grammatically CAN'T BE talking about one person, to say so, is pure ignorance of the basic gramatically rules of the Hebrew language.
     
  7. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    which particular verse are you refering to here
     
  8. John Eastern

    John Eastern Member

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    How many times does Jesus die? In as many ways as we deny love. As soon as we turn to face our selflessness, love is resurrected and sits on the right hand of the father... mom must be at work.
     
  9. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    i didnt say that isaiah did not live 700 years before jesus , in fact i mentioned that it was 700 years before hand . did you not read what i said
     
  10. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    well if you havent got a NT then that would make you ignorant how can you be so sure of things with out even looking in the NT now that is a strange choice
     
  11. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    That's it? That's the big payoff in this whole thing? Trying to trap people into something. Nice. Okay, so here is my answer. Let's look at the whole passage and take it into context, shall we?
    8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.
    9: And He made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.

    So, when taken into context, it says that this person (I believe Jesus of Nazareth) took on the transgressions of the people (plural), made his grave with the wicked (plural), and was with the rich (plural) in his death. In the hebrew the word death takes on the same plural that coincides with the words that verb is reffering to, so while Christ suffered one death (singular), he did so covered with a multitude of sins (plural) and in the hebrew the word for his death must be plural as well, b'motav rather than b'moto. Nice try though. Actually I would think someone who knows Hebrew and was looking to trip up a christian, would have used the phrase, " And He made his grave with the wicked" to trip someone up. Since He was actually buried in a rich man's tomb. BTW, he did die once in case I wasn't clear.
     
  12. John Eastern

    John Eastern Member

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    Ah folks, Jesus didn't debate, he hung on a tree.
     
  13. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Verse 9.
     
  14. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    How many tenses do you think Hebrew has?
     
  15. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Ahh yes, fell into another trap.. You assume that the person who took on the trangressions is singular but in fact the Hebrew word used is Lamo, not Lo. 3rd person PLURAL not SINGULAR like you said, "I BELIEVE JESUS OF NAZARETH" which is 3rd person SINGULAR. The text says that the people who took on the transgressions had a plague fall upon them, not him. The them does NOT refer to the peoples transgressions.

    You sure act like an expert on Hebrew language, wanna tell me the difference between Lamo and Lo. Thanks. The problem is your ignorance on the subject. Also, the hebrew word for death must be singular if the verb is plural. IE: we (plural) goes (plural) vs. he (singular) goes (plural) vs we(plural) go (singular).

    Nice try though. :biglaugh:
     
  16. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    And he (or one)will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth. verse 9

     
  17. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong... Deaths is PLURAL. Does that fit one person? No, not unless your morph the text even further and come up with a crazy new interpretation based upon 11:57 a.m. on November 21st, 2005 when you realized this fact. I guess Christians 'holy spirit' missed this one. . .
     
  18. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    Not even close to an expert on Hebrew, a working knowledge only, so I can't hope to debate simantics of it with comeone who is well versed in Hebrew. I guess that we will just have to agree to disagree (like most christians and jews;) ) and move on. Peace.
     
  19. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    9And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth........YOUNGS LITRAL TRANSLATION ...ISAIAH 53;9
     
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