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How many sins before it is too late?

T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Nova2216 said:
It is possible your position on once saved always saved is incorrect. If that is the case then the scriptures which teach one saved can be lost would harmonize.

One can be saved.

Save Yourselves (Acts 2:40)
Bel. + Bapt = Saved (Mk 16:15,16).

Some saved can be lost.

ye are fallen from grace. (Gal.5:4)
Whole Chapter (Luke 15)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.(2Peter 2:20-22)


arisetotruth.com
Click to expand...
Hi Nova2216,

I agree "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a scriptural doctrine. And of course you have to repent, and be baptized "in the name" for the forgiveness of your sins. But it is also necessary to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 John 3:5
 
Nova2216

Nova2216

Active Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
Hi Nova2216,

I agree "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a scriptural doctrine. And of course you have to repent, and be baptized "in the name" for the forgiveness of your sins. But it is also necessary to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 John 3:5
Click to expand...

There is a difference between the "gift" of the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit.

The Gift -

In (Acts 2:38,39) the "promise" of the Holy Spirit was "forgiveness of sins" (Gen.12:3). This refers to water baptism (Ac.22:16) (Ac.8:35-39) (Mk 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:21).

Receiving The Holy Spirit -

To receive the Holy Spirit and be able to do miracles a person had to have an original apostle "lay their hands upon them" physically (Ac.8:18,19) (Ac.19:1-6). There are no apostles today and that's why miracles ceased around the end of the 1st century.

Those baptized (in water) in (Acts 8:5-19) did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came down from Jerusalem and laid their hands upon them.

No apostles = no miracles

Thanks
 
rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Nova2216 said:
It is possible your position on once saved always saved is incorrect. If that is the case then the scriptures which teach one saved can be lost would harmonize.

One can be saved.

Save Yourselves (Acts 2:40)
Bel. + Bapt = Saved (Mk 16:15,16).

Some saved can be lost.

ye are fallen from grace. (Gal.5:4)
Whole Chapter (Luke 15)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.(2Peter 2:20-22)


arisetotruth.com
Click to expand...
Gal 5:2-4,

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
​
Who is falling from grace? Any born again believers who misbehaves? It doesn't say that. It says that those who attempt to follow the law have fallen from grace. It doesn't say they lost their salvation. It doesn't say anything one way or the other about salvation. The whole of Galatians was written because they were trying to justify themselves instead of believing they were justified by Christ. Read first part of the third chapter. Galatians is actually written to those who thought they needed to make themselves righteous by following the law. They did not believe the basic doctrine of Romans. They did not believe Jesus did a complete job, that they had to finish it for him.

Rom 3:22,

Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
​
Our righteousness, the very righteousness of God, is because of the work Jesus did, not the works that we do.

Luke was written to the Jews before the new birth was available. None of them were born again of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23). They did not share in the inheritance that is reserved for us in heaven (1 Peter 1:4). Note that the inheritance, like the seed, is incorruptible. It is also said to be undefiled and will not fade away. In any case they were not born again so they had no salvation to loose.

Where does 2 Peter 2:20-22 say born again believers lost their salvation? It doesn't. It just says they will not realize the fullness of what they have in Christ.

You can't even stop being your earthly Father's son regardless of your behavior and that seed is corruptible. Are you suggesting the seed of sonship that God created within you is somehow less permanent?

Every son has a standing and a state with their father. Their standing is that of a son and that can't change. There standing can vary widely, from being a loving son to being a downright dastardly son. There is no difference with our relationship to God.

But, assuming I am wrong about all of this, would you care to speculate on an answer to the original question; how many sins do we get before it is too late?
 
TheTruthReaper

TheTruthReaper

Member
rrobs said:
Apparently there are many Christians who do not believe Jesus' last words, "it is finished." They must think that they must do the real "finishing" of their redemption by acting in an appropriate manner.

It also appears they don't believe Peter when he wrote:

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
​
For whatever reason they must think that the word "incorruptible" really means "corruptible."

Furthermore, it appears they want to argue with Paul.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

I know there are some verses that appear to say Christians can loose their salvation, but why wouldn't those verses be a blatant contradiction to the above? Wouldn't all verses in the Bible have to say one thing or the other?

But it is not really my intent to argue the point. Instead, I'd like to hear from those who believe they must complete Jesus' work for him. Specifically I'd be curious to learn how many sins a Christian gets before it it supposedly too late and the work Jesus did in their lives is made void. Is it a specific number? Does it matter which sins they commit (murder vs a little white lie for example)?
Click to expand...
What was finished?
 
angellous_evangellous

angellous_evangellous

Christian
rrobs said:
But it is not really my intent to argue the point. Instead, I'd like to hear from those who believe they must complete Jesus' work for him. Specifically I'd be curious to learn how many sins a Christian gets before it it supposedly too late and the work Jesus did in their lives is made void. Is it a specific number? Does it matter which sins they commit (murder vs a little white lie for example)?
Click to expand...

I would begin to worry about one's 'salvation' when their sins start to drift over into the realm of "not being able to find justice in this life." That is to say when a Christian starts to sin in a way that causes them to escape justice in this life, we can expect God to exact justice in the next, particularly when the victim is helpless.
 
rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
I would begin to worry about one's 'salvation' when their sins start to drift over into the realm of "not being able to find justice in this life." That is to say when a Christian starts to sin in a way that causes them to escape justice in this life, we can expect God to exact justice in the next, particularly when the victim is helpless.
Click to expand...
So how many sins, in whatever way we take them, would that be? One? Ten? A thousand? A million?
 
rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
It's up to God's sense of justice. Is raping a five year old child enough? I think so.
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Jesus didn't rap anybody and we are saved by what He did. Besides we do not die because of the sins we commit. We die because sin entered the world which happened a long time before you and I were born.

Rom 5:12,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
​
We die because Adam sinned and that sin nature was passed on to all of us. We sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. We were born sinners because of Adam. Jesus is called the second Adam. When we get born again we get a divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and that is why 1 Peter 1:23 says we are born again of incorruptible seed. Would it not be calling God a liar if we say that there is some way our actions could undo Jesus' work, that the seed God created in us is not really incorruptible?

Also, you appear to assign degrees of badness to sins.

Jas 2:10,

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
​
Looks like a little white lie is as bad as rapping a 5 year old child. Don't get me wrong, it is certainly a heinous thing to strike a child, but even one little sin in our lives is enough to separate us from God.

God requires perfection and the only perfect man to have lived and dies was Jesus. I'm sure you know our identity with Jesus. God says we were baptized with him, crucified with him, raised from the dead with him, ascended with him, and at this very moment we are seated at the right hand of God with him (Eph 2:6 - notice past tense "hath"). If you want verses on all of that, let me know, but it would be better for you to search them out for yourself like the Bereans did in the Book of Acts (Acts 17:11).
 
TheTruthReaper

TheTruthReaper

Member
rrobs said:
Yes.

What exactly does enduring mean? Does it mean we must remain sinless? Or is there a certain number of sins that are OK?
Click to expand...
I asked you first if you had to endure to the end. You did not answer. That is where we are at that point in the conversation...not
What exactly does enduring mean? Does it mean we must remain sinless? Or is there a certain number of sins that are OK?

I assume by you evading the question
that you know if you do answer it you will condemn yourself by your own words.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Nova2216 said:
There is a difference between the "gift" of the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit.

The Gift -

In (Acts 2:38,39) the "promise" of the Holy Spirit was "forgiveness of sins" (Gen.12:3). This refers to water baptism (Ac.22:16) (Ac.8:35-39) (Mk 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:21).

Receiving The Holy Spirit -

To receive the Holy Spirit and be able to do miracles a person had to have an original apostle "lay their hands upon them" physically (Ac.8:18,19) (Ac.19:1-6). There are no apostles today and that's why miracles ceased around the end of the 1st century.

Those baptized (in water) in (Acts 8:5-19) did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came down from Jerusalem and laid their hands upon them.

No apostles = no miracles

Thanks
Click to expand...

Receiving the Holy Spirit is called a gift in Acts 11:15-17

Acts 2:38-39 lets us know to repent, and be baptized in the name for the remission of sins, and then we have a promise that he will fill us with his Holy Spirit. v39 - and the promise is to as many as God shall call.

The Holy Spirit is for today, otherwise we have a big problem. Because we must have his Spirit or we are none of his as it says in Romans 8:9. Just because the apostles aren't around doesn't mean God doesn't fill people with his Holy Spirit.

He said he would pour out his Spirit on all flesh in the last days. Acts 2:16-18. And we are still in the last days.

We must be born again - born of water and of the Spirit. John 3:3-6 When you are baptized in his name for remission of sins, that is being born of the water. And when he fills you with his Holy Spirit, that is being born of the Spirit. It takes both. That is what happened in those places you quoted in Acts 8:12-17 and Acts 19:5-6 and also in Acts 10:43-48 - They were born again. Born of the water and of the Spirit.

Those that believe on him, as the scripture says, will receive the Spirit. John 7:37-39
 
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P

Prim969

Member
Valjean said:
"It is finished" seems pretty ambiguous to me.
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( It is finished. And he bowed his head and gave up the ghost ) In the context of what the crucifixion account meant with those words ( it is finished ) . Means he paid the price for a debt that we could never pay nor overcome : Redemption from sin.
 
Valjean

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Prim969 said:
( It is finished. And he bowed his head and gave up the ghost ) In the context of what the crucifixion account meant with those words ( it is finished ) . Means he paid the price for a debt that we could never pay nor overcome : Redemption from sin.
Click to expand...
Maybe he just meant 'I'm done for."
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 
Nova2216

Nova2216

Active Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
He said he would pour out his Spirit on all flesh in the last days. Acts 2:16-18. And we are still in the last days.
Click to expand...

This is a good point.

The "all flesh" (Joel 2:28) refers to is Jew and Gentile (Rom.1:16).

One is either a Jew or a Gentile.

This was completed in two parts.

In (Ac 2:38-39) the Jews received "the promise" of forgiveness of sins.

Then the Gentiles received the same promise in (Ac.10).

This is what was meant by "All Flesh".


Now to the "Gifts" plural (1Cor.12)

No one today has the "gifts" of the Holy Spirit as those in the 1st century (1Cor.12).

Those in (Ac.8:5-18) were baptized in water but they did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came down from Jerusalem and "laid their hands" upon the people (Ac.8:18,19). That is how one received the Holy Spirit and the ability to do miracles.

Today there are no apostles.

What is extended to people today is "the promise" of forgiveness of sins to all who obey the gospel (Mark 16:15,16). This promise began with Abraham (Gen.12:3). 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Question - How is one filled with the Holy Spirit? (Eph.5:18)


There is a difference between "gift" singular (Acts 2:38,39) and "gifts" plural (1Cor.12).

Most never study the bible enough to realize this.


Thanks
 
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