How many sins before it is too late?

[rrobs]

How do we know we have a relationship with the Lord?

(1Jn 2:3-6)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Interesting passage.

(Jn 3:19-21) ...21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Thanks

Thanks for the reply. Good verses! However, they do not say that our behavior can undo the complete job Jesus did. Our behavior certainly can affect our fellowship with God as our witness to those searching for the truth, but it can not change the truth that the born again believer is made a child of God by seed.

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
​

A person can not stop being their parent's child regardless of their behavior, and that seed (from the father), is corruptible. How much more secure is the incorruptible seed by which we became children of God.

Working on the flesh is a loosing proposition.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

We should look, not at our sins, but at the savior from sins, Jesus Christ.

Col 3:1-3,

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
​

The more we know of the absolutely complete work Jesus did for us, the more we want to be like him. The Christian walk is not about making resolutions to be a "better Christian." Instead it is about keeping our minds on God, mainly through the written word, i.e. the Bible.

Ephesians says we are God's workmanship.

Eph 2:10,

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​

I would be loathe to think I could somehow trump the workmanship of God.

Rom 3:22,

Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
​

Let that sink in for a minute. We are as righteous as God Himself! What a fantastic truth. It is because of Jesus' work, not our own.

God does not look at our flesh. As far as He is concerned, it was buried with Jesus and it stayed in the tomb. Our identification is with Jesus. The scriptures say we were baptized with him, crucified with him, raised from the dead with him, and ascended into the heavens with him.

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

God looks at the Christ in us, and that is perfect. Our flesh is dead and it will stay dead.

But God sees things His way, and at times we can't help but see things in our own way. Read Romans chapter 7 to see that even Paul wrestled with his flesh and didn't always come out on top. He said plainly that he serves sin with his flesh, but God with his mind. That is pretty much what Galatians 3:1-3 said.

Lest you suggest I am saying I can do whatever I want, I offer the same response as Paul. That would be Romans chapter 6. We ought to walk in the truth, but failure to do so does not somehow negate God's workmanship in us, the incorruptible seed, or the inheritance waiting we will receive at Christ's second coming.

1Pet 1:4,

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
​

How can we explain away incorruptible, undefiled, something that will not fade away, and something that is reserved for us?

It is worth noting that we got born again, not by confessing our sins, but the savior of sins. That is what Romans 10:9-10 tells us. But after our new birth, we are told to confess our sins.

1 John 1:8-10,

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
​

When I walk in ways I ought not to walk, I simple admit to God that I did so. I am absolutely assured that He does forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. That takes all of one or two seconds. Then I'm right back on track with the thoughts of God. I spend no time in self condemnation.

Besides all of the above, I would suggest you read the first 8 chapters of Romans. Hopefully you will see that the real problem is not our sins. The problem is sin itself. When Adam disobeyed sin entered the world and death by sin. We all inherit the sin nature and thus are subjects of death. That is the case the moment we enter this world, long before we actually begin to commit sins. Our very nature makes us sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. Dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and people sin. Thanks Adam! But infinitely more thanks to Jesus for loving us enough to follow God's will to the most minute detail possible, including a most gruesome death on the cross. I rely on his work, not my own.

God bless

 

[Nova2216]

Thanks for the reply. Good verses! However, they do not say that our behavior can undo the complete job Jesus did. Our behavior certainly can affect our fellowship with God as our witness to those searching for the truth, but it can not change the truth that the born again believer is made a child of God by seed.


A person can not stop being their parent's child regardless of their behavior, and that seed (from the father), is corruptible. How much more secure is the incorruptible seed by which we became children of God.


The more we know of the absolutely complete work Jesus did for us, the more we want to be like him. The Christian walk is not about making resolutions to be a "better Christian." Instead it is about keeping our minds on God, mainly through the written word, i.e. the Bible.


Let that sink in for a minute. We are as righteous as God Himself! What a fantastic truth. It is because of Jesus' work, not our own.

God does not look at our flesh. As far as He is concerned, it was buried with Jesus and it stayed in the tomb. Our identification is with Jesus. The scriptures say we were baptized with him, crucified with him, raised from the dead with him, and ascended into the heavens with him.




Lest you suggest I am saying I can do whatever I want, I offer the same response as Paul. That would be Romans chapter 6. We ought to walk in the truth, but failure to do so does not somehow negate God's workmanship in us, the incorruptible seed, or the inheritance waiting we will receive at Christ's second coming.

Besides all of the above, I would suggest you read the first 8 chapters of Romans. Hopefully you will see that the real problem is not our sins. The problem is sin itself. When Adam disobeyed sin entered the world and death by sin. We all inherit the sin nature and thus are subjects of death. That is the case the moment we enter this world, long before we actually begin to commit sins. Our very nature makes us sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. Dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and people sin. Thanks Adam! But infinitely more thanks to Jesus for loving us enough to follow God's will to the most minute detail possible, including a most gruesome death on the cross. I rely on his work, not my own.

God bless

A child of God can be disinherited.

11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? 12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, (Num.14:12)


Notice the rich man in (Luke 16:19-31). He was a child of God and yet he ended up in torment.


Notice (2Peter 2:20-22) -

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Notice the word "if" in (1Jn 1:6-9). ---> "upon the condition that"

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Notice (Heb.10:26-31)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


The child of God has a relationship with the Lord if they continue in the word of God (Ac. 2:42).

The whole chapter of (Luke 15) teaches that which has been saved can be lost.


62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. (Luke 9:62)


***

I am continually hearing the finished work of Jesus saves men. People mean men do not have any part in the salvation process. Even a casual reading of the book of Acts will prove man has a part in the saving of his soul. (Ac.2:36-47) (Ac.8:5,12,13 ;35-40) (Ac.16:30-34) (Ac.22:16) (Mark 1`6:16) (1Peter 3:21) (Mt.28:18-20).

If man is saved only by the "finished work of Jesus" then men need not believe.


Thanks

 

[rrobs]

A child of God can be disinherited.

11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? 12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, (Num.14:12)


Notice the rich man in (Luke 16:19-31). He was a child of God and yet he ended up in torment.


Notice (2Peter 2:20-22) -

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Notice the word "if" in (1Jn 1:6-9). ---> "upon the condition that"

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Notice (Heb.10:26-31)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


The child of God has a relationship with the Lord if they continue in the word of God (Ac. 2:42).

The whole chapter of (Luke 15) teaches that which has been saved can be lost.


62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. (Luke 9:62)


***

I am continually hearing the finished work of Jesus saves men. People mean men do not have any part in the salvation process. Even a casual reading of the book of Acts will prove man has a part in the saving of his soul. (Ac.2:36-47) (Ac.8:5,12,13 ;35-40) (Ac.16:30-34) (Ac.22:16) (Mark 1`6:16) (1Peter 3:21) (Mt.28:18-20).

If man is saved only by the "finished work of Jesus" then men need not believe.


Thanks

So then the incorruptible seed is really corruptible and God's workmanship can be undone? OK.

Remember, if you break one law you've broken them all.

Jas 2:10,

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
​

Assuming you've committed at least one little sin since your new birth, you are guilty of murder also. Ouch! Does God allow murderers in paradise?

Hebrews does not say we loose our salvation for sinning. It actually says to get over your own flesh and trying to stay worthy by works. Jesus indeed died and rose once and he won't do it over and over in order to keep saving you. He did it once and that is all we need.

Since the verses in the OT, including the gospel you mentioned, were written to the Jews before Jesus died and rose, they do not apply to the church that began on the day of Pentecost. If that is not true, what good did Jesus do? If it's law that justifies us, and not Jesus, then he died in vain. We could just read the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita. Both give us more or less the same laws and mode of behavior as the OT. What they all lack, including the OT, is the availability to be born again of incorruptible seed and the solution to death. Only Jesus made everything possible.

BTW, lest you think I dismiss the OT, I offer the following,

Rom 15:4,

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
​

We can learn from the OT, but the epistles of Paul were specifically written to the church after Jesus died and rose. Surely you would concede that Jesus' life changed something for us?


The original question was, if we can loose our salvation, how many sins do we get before it's too late? How can we be sure? Do you ever worry you have, or your will have, committed to many and may loose your salvation?

 

[Nova2216]

The original question was, if we can loose our salvation, how many sins do we get before it's too late? How can we be sure? Do you ever worry you have, or your will have, committed to many and may loose your salvation?

Rob -"Hebrews does not say we loose our salvation for sinning."



Me - Hebrews clearly states one saved can be lost.

The person in (Heb.10:26-31) was once sanctified. He then so sins so that the sacrifice of the Lord has no affect upon him. One cannot be saved without that sacrifice.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Notice also -(Luke 15 - the whole chapter) (2Peter 2:20-22) (Heb.10:2:31).


Even Paul thought one saved could be lost.

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1Cor.9:27)

A bible example - (Acts 8:12-22) Simon becomes a Christian just as the Samar tins (Ac.8:5,12). Then Simon sins according to Peter and is found not to be right with God. Simon is told to repent and pray for forgiveness (1Jn 1:6-9) (Ac.8:19-22).

Why was he told to repent and pray if he was not in danger of losing his soul?

Thanks

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Apparently there are many Christians who do not believe Jesus' last words, "it is finished."

There are many that also do not think this is applicable.

Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Many speak with an authority of interpretation, that they just do not have.

The exact reason there are many conflicting Christain paths, each saying they are not the true followers of the Word given of Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[rrobs]

Rob -"Hebrews does not say we loose our salvation for sinning."

Me - Hebrews clearly states one saved can be lost.

The person in (Heb.10:26-31) was once sanctified. He then so sins so that the sacrifice of the Lord has no affect upon him. One cannot be saved without that sacrifice.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Notice also -(Luke 15 - the whole chapter) (2Peter 2:20-22) (Heb.10:2:31).

Even Paul thought one saved could be lost.

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1Cor.9:27)

A bible example - (Acts 8:12-22) Simon becomes a Christian just as the Samar tins (Ac.8:5,12). Then Simon sins according to Peter and is found not to be right with God. Simon is told to repent and pray for forgiveness (1Jn 1:6-9) (Ac.8:19-22).

Why was he told to repent and pray if he was not in danger of losing his soul?

Thanks

One thing is for sure; the scriptures can not contradict themselves.

Assuming the verses you quoted say we can loose our salvation, how would they fit with the several verses I quoted that say,

1. We are born again of incorruptible seed (1 Pet 1:23)
   
2. We have an incorruptible inheritance that is undefiled and does not fade away (1 Pet 1:4)
   
3. We are sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 1:13)
   
4. We are God's workmanship, not our own? (Eph 2:10)
5. We are a new creation, the old is gone. (2 Cor 5:17)

Can we make the incorruptible seed corrupt?
Can we corrupt, defile, and cause to fade away our inheritance?
Can we somehow unseal ourselves once God has sealed us?
Can we destroy God's new creation within us?
Can we kill the new creation and revive the old? Did we not die with Christ?

I think those who believe we can loose our salvation do not understand the new birth and what it does to the believer. They do not understand the power of God to make a new creation (Christ in us, Col 1:27) within the believer. They focus on the dead flesh instead of the living Christ (Col 3:3).

Any thoughts on all of us being guilty of murder, idolatry, homosexuality, and many more equally heinous actions (Jas 2:10)? Are there murderers in heaven, idolaters, and homosexuals in heaven?

Did you think about the difference between sin and sins? Read Romans carefully, noting when the singular is used and when the plural is used. It is a mistake to take sins and sin as being the same thing. Sins are a result of our sin nature. God does not give us an "improved" flesh. No! There is no point in doing so in that the flesh is dead. The flesh will always commit sins (even Paul's flesh as per Romans chapter 7). Instead when we confessed with our mouth the Lord Jesus and believed God raised him from among the dead (Rom 10:9) God created a brand new man wherein dwells righteousness, the righteousness of God to be exact (Rom 3:22).

Finally, the original question to those who believe we can undo the work of Jesus was how many sins do we get before it's to late. Are we held to a higher, lower, or the same standard as those who have not accepted Jesus? Care to weigh in on that?

God bless.

 

[Nova2216]

One thing is for sure; the scriptures can not contradict themselves.

Assuming the verses you quoted say we can loose our salvation, how would they fit with the several verses I quoted that say,

1. We are born again of incorruptible seed (1 Pet 1:23)
   
2. We have an incorruptible inheritance that is undefiled and does not fade away (1 Pet 1:4)
   
3. We are sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 1:13)
   
4. We are God's workmanship, not our own? (Eph 2:10)
5. We are a new creation, the old is gone. (2 Cor 5:17)

Finally, the original question to those who believe we can undo the work of Jesus was how many sins do we get before it's to late. Are we held to a higher, lower, or the same standard as those who have not accepted Jesus? Care to weigh in on that?

God bless.

The seed is the word of God (Luke 8:11). That is the incorruptible seed. There is no problem with the seed. Just as the problem was laid upon the people (them) in (Heb. 8:6-13) today the problem lies with the person in sin.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

(1Jn 1:6-9) is for the Christian (the saved).

Why?

What if that Christian does not follow the instructions found in (1Jn 1:6-9)?

I will allow Peter to tell you what will happen.

(Acts 8: 20-24)

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Simon had a good and honest heart. (Ac 8)

Question - How many sins did Simon commit?

Thanks

 

[TrueBeliever37]

One thing is for sure; the scriptures can not contradict themselves.

Assuming the verses you quoted say we can loose our salvation, how would they fit with the several verses I quoted that say,

1. We are born again of incorruptible seed (1 Pet 1:23)
   
2. We have an incorruptible inheritance that is undefiled and does not fade away (1 Pet 1:4)
   
3. We are sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 1:13)
   
4. We are God's workmanship, not our own? (Eph 2:10)
5. We are a new creation, the old is gone. (2 Cor 5:17)

Can we make the incorruptible seed corrupt?
Can we corrupt, defile, and cause to fade away our inheritance?
Can we somehow unseal ourselves once God has sealed us?
Can we destroy God's new creation within us?
Can we kill the new creation and revive the old? Did we not die with Christ?

I think those who believe we can loose our salvation do not understand the new birth and what it does to the believer. They do not understand the power of God to make a new creation (Christ in us, Col 1:27) within the believer. They focus on the dead flesh instead of the living Christ (Col 3:3).

Any thoughts on all of us being guilty of murder, idolatry, homosexuality, and many more equally heinous actions (Jas 2:10)? Are there murderers in heaven, idolaters, and homosexuals in heaven?

Did you think about the difference between sin and sins? Read Romans carefully, noting when the singular is used and when the plural is used. It is a mistake to take sins and sin as being the same thing. Sins are a result of our sin nature. God does not give us an "improved" flesh. No! There is no point in doing so in that the flesh is dead. The flesh will always commit sins (even Paul's flesh as per Romans chapter 7). Instead when we confessed with our mouth the Lord Jesus and believed God raised him from among the dead (Rom 10:9) God created a brand new man wherein dwells righteousness, the righteousness of God to be exact (Rom 3:22).

Finally, the original question to those who believe we can undo the work of Jesus was how many sins do we get before it's to late. Are we held to a higher, lower, or the same standard as those who have not accepted Jesus? Care to weigh in on that?

God bless.

Even the parable of the Sower lets you know you can believe for a while, but fall away in time of temptation. Or the seed can be choked out by cares, riches, and pleasures of this life. Luke 8:11-15 This is regarding that incorruptible seed you are talking about. (The seed is incorruptible, but we aren't until we have obtained the redemption of our bodies.)

"He that endureth to the end shall be saved"
How does that even mean anything per your doctrine?

Regarding your question:
It is not based on a certain number of sins. He asked us to forgive many times, and he is more forgiving than us. He looks at the heart, and why you sinned. Were you just weak in something or are you defiantly sinning? Are you sorry when you fail or do you not even care? Is it premeditated and you don't even give a flip? Were you caught off guard? or was it in a moment of weakness? Did you cause someone else to fall, or be mislead, and get their spiritual blood on your hands? (That is a dangerous one.)

 

[Nova2216]

Two words help to prove one saved can be lost.

#1. "Withered"

6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. (Luke 8:6)

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (Jn 15:6)


#2. "If" (1Jn 1:6-10)

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[rrobs]

Even the parable of the Sower lets you know you can believe for a while, but fall away in time of temptation. Or the seed can be choked out by cares, riches, and pleasures of this life. Luke 8:11-15 This is regarding that incorruptible seed you are talking about. (The seed is incorruptible, but we aren't until we have obtained the redemption of our bodies.)

"He that endureth to the end shall be saved"
How does that even mean anything per your doctrine?

Regarding your question:
It is not based on a certain number of sins. He asked us to forgive many times, and he is more forgiving than us. He looks at the heart, and why you sinned. Were you just weak in something or are you defiantly sinning? Are you sorry when you fail or do you not even care? Is it premeditated and you don't even give a flip? Were you caught off guard? or was it in a moment of weakness? Did you cause someone else to fall, or be mislead, and get their spiritual blood on your hands? (That is a dangerous one.)

The seed mentioned in the parable Jesus spoke is not at all the same as the seed by which we are born again. It was a parable, a figure of speech not meant to be taken literally.

When Jesus spoke those words, the new birth by incorruptible seed was not available. Surely you realize that something changed when Jesus died and rose? Our present age is defined by the letters of Paul, not the gospels. It is not correct to build a doctrine on the OT and, despite the man made headings in your Bible, the gospels are part of the OT. The NT did not begin until the day of Pentecost.

You must think it is possible for God to make a mistake. He chose you before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). That would be well before you committed any sins whatsoever.

 

[Muffled]

The two judgments mentioned in Revelation are not for born again Christians. Born again Christians have already been judged and found as righteous as God.

Rom 3:22,

Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
​

The scriptures speak of our inheritance which is reserved for us in heaven. They say we have been sealed unto the day of redemption. They see the gift of holy spirit is a token, a down payment, of our inheritance. Ephesians actually tells us we are already seated in the heavens with God.

Are we not identified with Jesus in baptism, death, resurrection, ascension? sure we are! If you want verses on all of these thing, let me know.

I believe all that is true but it will be too late for non-Christians at the last judgment.

 

[Muffled]

My understanding is that, conventionally, salvation is said to be by God's grace, due to Man's inescapably insufficient merit. I think this is strictly speaking the position of almost all Christians. Salvation is thus a gift, rather than something deserved.

Most of the older, pre-Reformation, traditions hold that God is believed to take account, not only of faith, but good works too, rather than the strict sola fide advocated by Luther. In practice it seems that a good number of the Protestant faithful also share this view, as it seems to be more reasonable. My understanding of Methodism, for instance, is that good works are considered important to the life of the Christian. (For one thing, this view admits the possibility of there being good people who reject Christianity who may nevertheless attain salvation, though I don't think this will appear in any official Christian theology!) .

This view avoids the unattractive taint of smug exclusivism that can seem to emanate from some of the strict sola fide people. I have met people of this sort who have an air of: "It does not matter how I behave, because I am saved, you see. [unlike you, you poor schmuck]".

I believe that a person will not be saved on merit alone as in the Muslim believe that good and evil are weighed on a scale and if more good then the person is saved. Jesus made it quite clear that a person has to know Him as Savior.

Mat. 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness

I believe that is a non-Christian view. Of course we are pleased to be saved like a person in the desert should be pleased if he finds a water hole. We don't exclude anyone. People exclude themselves.

 

[Muffled]

Rob I’m sure when the Lord said ( it is finished) he meant what he said. I guess that gives him the power to redeem whoever he chooses.

I believe He has the power and the Word but he will not force an unwilling person to be saved.

 

[Prim969]

I believe He has the power and the Word but he will not force an unwilling person to be saved.

Muffles if he has only the power to save the willing and cannot help the unwilling then his power is rather limited and certainly not absolute power at all. If what your saying is correct than we are dealing with a God who is partially impotent. A God who cannot render life to both if he so chooses. I do like the strong virile God who is able to give life to whomever he pleases.

 

[Nova2216]

The seed mentioned in the parable Jesus spoke is not at all the same as the seed by which we are born again. It was a parable, a figure of speech not meant to be taken literally.

When Jesus spoke those words, the new birth by incorruptible seed was not available.

You must think it is possible for God to make a mistake. He chose you before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). That would be well before you committed any sins whatsoever.

Notice these two scriptures both teach the "seed" is the "word of God".


11 Now the parable is this: The "seed" is the "word of God". (Luke 8:11).


22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying "the truth" through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible "seed", but of incorruptible, by the "word of God", which liveth and abideth for ever. (1Peter 1:22,23)


Question - Is the "word of God" in each verse above the same?


Ephesians Chapters 1 / 3 is referring to "the church", not individuals (a kind of people or a group).

Calvinism is wrong.

It is by following the "words" of the lord that one becomes a member of the church (Acts 11:14) (Acts 2:40) (Mt. 28:18-20) (Mt.7:21) (1Jn. 2:3-6).

The Church = The Saved (Acts 2:38,47)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Thanks

 

[rrobs]

I believe all that is true but it will be too late for non-Christians at the last judgment.

Rev 20:15,

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
​

I think that this verse shows that only those not found in the book of life will be destroyed. This judgment is not for Christians since we have already been judged and found righteous by the work of Jesus. This judgment is for all people who lived for all time. It would include those who never heard of Jesus. Jesus will be doing the judging and he will do it according to what God tells him, i.e. he will judge righteous judgment. Jesus will consider the hearts, the inner person, when he judges. I might be going our on a limb here, but I would suggest that most people are pretty decent folks and thus paradise will have it's share of non-Christians who Jesus judged worth to be written in the book of life.

 

[rrobs]

I believe all that is true but it will be too late for non-Christians at the last judgment.

Rev 20:15,

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
​

I think that this verse shows that only those not found in the book of life will be destroyed. This judgment is not for Christians since we have already been judged and found righteous by the work of Jesus. This judgment is for all people who lived for all time. It would include those who never heard of Jesus. Jesus will be doing the judging and he will do it according to what God tells him, i.e. he will judge righteous judgment. Jesus will consider the hearts, the inner person, when he judges. I might be going our on a limb here, but I would suggest that most people are pretty decent folks and thus paradise will have it's share of non-Christians who Jesus judged worth to be written in the book of life.

 

[rrobs]

Notice these two scriptures both teach the "seed" is the "word of God".

11 Now the parable is this: The "seed" is the "word of God". (Luke 8:11).

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying "the truth" through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible "seed", but of incorruptible, by the "word of God", which liveth and abideth for ever. (1Peter 1:22,23)

Question - Is the "word of God" in each verse above the same?

In Luke Jesus is making a comparison between the Word and a seed. It is just that, a comparison in parable. It is in no way declaring once and for all that every time the word seed is used it refers to the Word. There are numerous uses of the word "seed" that do not make it the Word.

In 1 Peter the seed is used in reference to birth. We were born the first time from the corruptible seed of our earthly father. The new birth is also by seed, specifically by the incorruptible seed that God created within us that makes us His children.

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.​

A careful read will show that the incorruptible seed came by the word. It is the Greek word "dia" which indicates agency, the person through whom something was done. In this case the seed came through the agency of God's Word. This verse makes a clear distinction between the word "seed" and the word "word." Grammatically, there is no indication that they are one and the same.

God bless

 

[rrobs]

Notice these two scriptures both teach the "seed" is the "word of God".


11 Now the parable is this: The "seed" is the "word of God". (Luke 8:11).


22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying "the truth" through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible "seed", but of incorruptible, by the "word of God", which liveth and abideth for ever. (1Peter 1:22,23)


Question - Is the "word of God" in each verse above the same?


Ephesians Chapters 1 / 3 is referring to "the church", not individuals (a kind of people or a group).

Calvinism is wrong.

It is by following the "words" of the lord that one becomes a member of the church (Acts 11:14) (Acts 2:40) (Mt. 28:18-20) (Mt.7:21) (1Jn. 2:3-6).

The Church = The Saved (Acts 2:38,47)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Thanks

The first chapter of Genesis mentions "seed" several times. Essentially a seed always produces an identical copy of the animal or plant which produces the seed. An oak seed will always produce an oak tree, a cat seed (sperm) will always produce another cat, a dog seed will always produce another dog. This is the essential quality of a seed. As I said, Jesus used the word in an entirely different context. He used as the figure of speech metaphor. As such it was a figure of speech used within the figure of speech called a parable.

With that understanding, what do you suppose an incorruptible seed would produce? I'm thinking an incorruptible child of God, the Christ in you (Col 1:27).

 

[Nova2216]

The first chapter of Genesis mentions "seed" several times. Essentially a seed always produces an identical copy of the animal or plant which produces the seed. An oak seed will always produce an oak tree, a cat seed (sperm) will always produce another cat, a dog seed will always produce another dog. This is the essential quality of a seed. As I said, Jesus used the word in an entirely different context. He used as the figure of speech metaphor. As such it was a figure of speech used within the figure of speech called a parable.

With that understanding, what do you suppose an incorruptible seed would produce? I'm thinking an incorruptible child of God, the Christ in you (Col 1:27).

I never said the word "seed" meant the very same thing throughout the whole Bible. I am saying that in (Luke 8:11) and (1Peter 1:23) the word "seed" is referring to the word of God spiritually. Each text says that very thing.