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Featured How many gentiles did Jesus convert to his religion?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Wild Fox, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Tell me.....were you there? How many ate with washed hands and did they wash ritualistically ? Was that the Law?

    The Law prescribed that the priests wash their hands and their feet at the copper basin located between the sanctuary and the altar before ministering at the altar or entering the tent of meeting. (Exodus 30:18-21)

    The Law also stated that in case someone slain was found and it was impossible to ascertain who the murderer was, the older men of the city nearest the slain person were to take a young cow, one that had never been worked with or had never pulled a yoke, to a torrent valley of running water and there break its neck. After this, the older men were to wash their hands over the young cow, denoting their innocence in regard to the murder. (Deuteronomy 21:1-8)

    Also, according to the Law, a person was rendered unclean if touched by someone with a running discharge who had not rinsed his hands. (Leviticus 15:11)

    Pilate vainly tried to clear himself of bloodguilt in connection with the death of Jesus by washing his hands before the people. But in this way he really could not escape responsibility for Jesus’ death, since he, not the howling mob, had the authority to determine the judgment. (Matthew 27:24)

    The scribes and Pharisees took issue with Jesus Christ concerning his disciples’ overstepping the traditions of men of former times by not washing their hands when about to eat a meal....but this involved no ordinary hand washing for hygienic purposes...it was a full on ceremonious ritual. “The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands up to the elbow.” (Mark 7:2-5; Matthew 15:2)

    The Babylonian Talmud (Sotah 4b) puts the one eating with unwashed hands on the same plane as one having relations with a harlot, and it states that the one lightly esteeming hand washing will be “uprooted from the world.”

    Will I ever find anything like that in God's Law or in Jesus' actions? Or was all that window dressing the ideas of men added to the ideas of other men?

    Was there anything in God's law that forbade the simple washing of hands? Was there ever a need to turn it into a ritual in the first place?

    The Pharisees were not referring to the hand washing as a sanitary measure. As a ritual, the rabbis required that water be poured over their hands prior to eating. I believe that It was also debated which vessels were to be used for the pouring, which kind of water was suitable, who should pour, and how much of the hands should be covered with water....so. how far did this need to go? Seriously.....?

    Jesus’ reaction to all these man-made laws was simple. He told the first-century Jewish religious leaders.......

    He said to them, “Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as it is written,

    ‘This people honors me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me;
    7 in vain do they worship me,
    teaching human precepts as doctrines.’

    8 You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.” (Mark 7:6-8)


    And you imagine that God requires all that? Why would he? All this mindless ritual seems to denote someone with OCD...not the commands of an intelligent Creator. Are there not more important things to concern yourself about? Why would God insist on these kinds of rituals unless all he cared about was performance? I can think of much more productive ways to spend my time.

    I guess that is how you prefer to read it, but it seems to me that as long as the Levites were following the Law in their recommendations, then their advice could be followed. It wasn't an excuse to expand and to keep on expanding what they might like the Law to include.....when was it to stop?


    Like I said...where was it to stop? At what point was the nit-picking to come to a halt? Was killing a flea on the Sabbath "hunting"? Was grasping a handful of grain while passing through a field on the Sabbath "harvesting and threshing"? At what point do Jews say to themselves...."this is ridiculous....why am I doing all this"? :shrug:
     
    #121 Deeje, Nov 3, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Except that when Paul wrote, the "NT" had not yet been written, so the "scripture" being referred to undoubtedly was the Torah and possibly some other books found in the Tanakh.

    False, as he used the present tense-- "am".

    That simply is not what idolatry is. Using your definition, using a prayer book or a book of songs or even a Bible is "idolatry". It is the worship of an object that is idolatry.

    Oh really? Like you really know, especially since your cult forbids you even to attend religious services outside your own..

    You keep on trying to dismiss Jesus as being a Jew operating out of Judaism, and your ignorance of Judaism is quite appalling.

    Is that why I taught theology for almost 40 years?

    There's one teaching of Confucius that I really like a lot, and it goes like this [paraphrased]: The more you know the more you know you really don't know [that much]. An example I often use along that line is this: To a child, a tree is simple; but to a biologist, a tree is very complex. Or as Gandhi said The Truth is rarely simple. Your "know it all" attitude is much more along the line of a child than an adult, sorry to say.
    And your "knowledge" of both Judaism and Catholicism is along the line of relative ignorance matched with a pathetic dose of bigotry as well as dishonesty as you continue to lie about certain things even when it is shown to you that you are wrong, such as you bogus claim that Catholics worship the sun whereas I showed you several official links that says that's simply not true. But then you just come back over and over nd over again to repeat the same exact lie.

    IMO, you made a huge mistake when you left the Anglican Church since that is at least a respectable one that doesn't go around judging people and fabricating excuses and lies.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That was my point metis. We were not just talking about the NT.
    But pointing forward, everything Jesus and his apostles taught was recorded in what became Christian scripture. It is all "inspired of God".

    How much you ignored to make a statement like that....Paul did not remain a Pharisee after his conversion. Jesus condemned the scribes and Pharisees, outright....so why would he want to share with them in "the judgment of Gehenna"?

    That is a sad justification metis. If that is what you want to believe...then you are free to do so.....but if you venerate an object, the definition includes "reverence, worship, adoration, idolisation, devotion"

    veneration
    /vɛnəˈreɪʃ(ə)n/
    noun
    1. great respect; reverence.
      "the traditional veneration of saints"
      synonyms: reverence, respect, worship, adoration, homage, exaltation, adulation, glorification, extolment, idolization, devotion".
    Can you give such things to images, when God told his people NOT to even make them? Please answer honestly.

    I have attended a lot of different church services in the years before I became a JW. Catholicism was the one that repulsed me the most. The images and how they were used in worship....like they were alive....the perfunctory attitude of the priest who appeared to be bored to tears repeating the same mindless repetitive rituals and prayers, week after week. I wondered why Catholic people rarely drank the wine when they took their little piece of bread....but the priest swigged on it quite a bit.

    I was searching for the truth, but all I saw were hypocritical people turning up for church on Sunday, picking up their "Christianity" at the door and leaving it there on the way out. I saw inept clergy battling to answer the most simple Bible questions.

    I also see how standards have dropped with the way people are dressed to go and worship their God these days. It hardly shows respect to turn up in torn jeans, or shorts and T-shirts, as if we can take a casual attitude towards our worship. If we make no effort, how is it worship? What are we actually giving to God? Certainly not respect.

    I learned most of what I know about Judaism from Jesus. The rest is from Jewish education sites and from the Jewish people I have interact with here on RF. I always use the Tanach to see if what Jews are reading in their scripture is the same as what I am reading. What more would you like me to do? I am learning a lot about justification from my conversations with @IndigoChild5559. :D

    Do you see what you taught? "Theology"

    theology
    /θɪˈɒlədʒi/
    noun
    1. the study of the nature of God and religious belief.
      "a theology degree"
      • religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.
        plural noun: theologies
        "in Christian theology, God comes to be conceived as Father and Son"
    Well, there is your problem right there. You never taught the Bible, metis.....you taught Christendom's religious beliefs and the erroneous idea that Jesus was God. You taught someone's version of Christianity.....how is that teaching what Jesus did?

    I can see why you would mistake my confidence for a "know it all" attitude. People who can't ever seem to settle on what to believe, (sometimes for their whole life) often wonder why others can be so positive. A true Christian knows what they believe and why they believe it, because they are taught by Christ through his only channel in this time of the end. (Matthew 24:45)

    This is no time for indecision, (James 1:5-8).....it is time for commitment and action, based on solid knowledge. If we cannot preach with boldness and certainty in our conviction, then we are practicing the wrong religion....we are still a 'lost sheep'.

    Sometimes your replies just sound like sour grapes. o_O

    It isn't dishonesty to tell the truth. What links would you provide that would override what has already been presented on this thread? Like the Pharisees, the church does not practice what it teaches. It is pathetic ignorance that fails to see what the Bible clearly teaches about so many things, in direct opposition to what the churches practice. The hypocrisy is palpable. The lies are all told by an apostate church system, serving the interests of God's enemy.

    You do know the history of Anglicanism, don't you?

    "The Church of England is the established church, meaning, amongst other things:
    • the Monarch is the the Supreme Governor of the church (theologically Jesus is the head),
    • the Church performs a number of official functions,
    • Church and State are linked".
    So regardless of the spiritual qualities of the Monarch, he/she is the earthly head of the church. Official functions are performed by the church...some have to do with its other function...the alliance of church and state. Does this sound like something Jesus would sanction? (John 18:36)

    "Henry VIII started the process of creating the Church of England after his split with the Pope in the 1530s. Henry was anxious to ensure a male heir after his first wife, Catherine of Aragon, had borne him only a daughter. He wanted his marriage annulled in order to remarry. In 1534 after several attempts to persuade the Pope to grant an annulment, Henry passed the Act of Succession and then the Act of Supremacy. These recognised that the King was "the only supreme head of the Church of England called Anglicana Ecclesia". Henry adopted the title given to him by the Pope in 1521, that of Defender of the Faith."

    BBC - Religions - Christianity: Church of England

    Interesting that you would use the word "respectable" in connection with any Church that has such ignoble beginnings. Henry just wanted to divorce his wife because she didn't give him a son ( his fault by the way)
    So he started a church where he was the boss, so that he could grant himself an annulment. :rolleyes:

    I was never so glad to leave anything in my life. (Revelation 18:4)

    I'm sorry that you feel so defensive, metis. Yet nothing I have told you is untrue....it is an inconvenient truth to those who will never accept it....but it is truth none the less. "Many" will have to wait for the judgment in order to be told the same thing. It will not end well....but I t doesn't have to be that way. (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) :( I wish you would listen.....
     
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  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Yes, it is the Law, the Oral Law. Oral Law is just as much a part of the Torah. It makes possible the keeping' of the Torah because it tells us how. Not only am I to obey the Oral Law per God's command, but I'm not to deviate to the right or to the left. To so much as question the washing of hands, per God's command meant to be taken and executed. See Deut. 17:8-13

    Do you have something against the idea of being ritually unclean and ritual cleansing? Because even if you don't ritually wash your hands before a meal as per Oral Torah, there is still plenty of this in written Torah. IOW God made it all part of his ideal society. The Psalms say the Law is perfect. It strikes me as very odd that you deride the Law that God gave -- I think you indirectly say something about the God who gave it.


    If you read the Torah, you will find that God does not separate out ceremonial laws as less significant and therefore having lighter punishments. For example it was the death penalty to gather wood on the Shabbat.

    There is no prohibition on washing or bathing. Go for it. But doing so does not fulfill the requirement for ritual washing and immersion.

    God created the distinction between being ritually clean and ritually unclean, and accompanying rituals. He also gave the interpretational authority to the judges and their successors the rabbis

    I specifically dealt with this in my post with the seven reasons why we can believe Jesus supported Oral Torah.


    There is one law in the Torah that, while we can speculate, we just really don't know why God commands it: Thou shalt not mix wool and linen. Some rabbis go so far as to say that the only reason this commandment exists is so that there will be one instance when we will obey God simply only to obey God. Why do I bring this up? Because ultimately it doesn't matter squat if you see the point in God's ritual purity laws or not. We Jews are to obey them simply because God is the King of the Universe and has made this covenant with us. It is not conditional on our understanding or approving of them.

    Among ourselves we have our arguments where it needs to stop. Me personally? I think it needs to stop when it becomes kind of OCD, telling us we have to put our right shoe on before our left shoe. I spent years as an Orthodox, and in many respects am still comfortable with that level of observance -- but not completely. I do see the value of continuing to address Jewish law on an ongoing basis as the Conservatives do.

    But that is something for US to argue over. It is not the business for a Gentile, who is not even part of the covenant, to come and tell us what to observe and what not to observe. It's rather presumptuous for you to boss us around about our tribal matters.

    Shalom
     
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  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "What does the word "am" mean versus "was"? Paul, when arrested long after his conversion, said "I am a Pharisee", not "I was a Pharisee"..

    But it is truthful since "worship" or "pray to" is an integral part of its ["idolatry"] definition.

    See above, and the issue of what even constitutes as "graven image" is not even clear within orthodox Jewish circles.

    In the making of the bread, wine is mixed in, so the drinking of it separately is simply optional. The priest "swigging" is that the wine must be consumed if there's any remaining, and very often there's not.

    Ah, there's "Deeje the Judger" again, thus ignoring Jesus' mandate not to judge others. And how could you possibly know that they're "hypocritical"?

    And how exactly do you know what I taught, Deeje?

    I was talking about your persistent lies on your bogus claim that Catholic theology allows us to worship the sun. That is a bold-faced lie you have kept repeating after I linked you to several official Catholic sources that showed you that this is not true.

    All that you have shown above is that you act so dishonestly, making up things, and also judging people over and over again in violation of what Jesus taught. Catholics are told that these are sins, but apparently your JW leaders don't agree.
     
    #125 metis, Nov 5, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Veneration" can include many things as you correctly state above, but Catholicism teaches that prayer to any object, including a statue or icon, is strictly prohibited.

    It's probably a good thing the John the Baptist with his camel shirt and Jesus with his robe didn't show up at your "kingdom hall" since I'm sure you'd also look down on them as well. It's not what one wears that makes one a believer in Jesus, and personally I do prefer to dress up a tad. But what the guy next to me is wearing is his business, not mine.

    So, all these churches teach ignorance but your JW's leaders teach intelligence, I suppose. Got it. Well, for some reason I have no interest it buying your snake oil, Deeje.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am done metis....your justifications are entrenched, so there is no point in continuing......go in peace and may the God of the Bible reveal his truth to you.

    There are none so blind as those who will not see. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Jesus will be the judge of all of us....we will let him do his job.
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Good, but I couldn't help but notice you had to end with just another judgement that defies what Jesus taught. Catholicism, and pretty much all other denominations of Christianity, teaches us not to judge others but the JW's continually ignore his message, thus showing that they may be a "Witness" but it's not from "Jehovah".

    Anyhow, I certainly don't hate you and, as a matter of fact, I admire your dedication to what you believe even though I believe it's misdirected at times. Go in peace.
     
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