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Featured How many gentiles did Jesus convert to his religion?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Wild Fox, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Oh, I'm very familiar with the chapter of the seven woes. Given that this is the chapter that underscores Jesus' support for the Oral Torah, I of course read the entire chapter to get the context.

    First of all, it does NOT say "they seated themselves" in the seat of Moses. It says "They sit" in the seat of Moses. BIG difference. The good translation CLEARLY indicates they have inherited the authority of Moses.

    I'm sorry, but it's pretty well known that the New World Translation plays fast and loose, preferring to hype JW doctrine than to be true to the text. If I were you, I'd find one of ANY of a number of good scholarly translations that are far superior.

    Then, BECAUSE Jesus accepts the teaching authority of the Pharisees, he instructs his followers to do and observe EVERYTHING they teach (which would include Oral Torah).



    You are creating quite a fiction. It's slippery language usage. You are saying that because God has "witnesses" in all times, and Jesus was a "witness" for God, that this makes him a Jehovah's "Witness." It just doesn't follow. It's very bad logic. A Jehovah's Witness is a much much more specific usage of the term. I am a witness for the Lord, but I most assuredly am not a Jehovah's Witness. Your religion does not have a monopoly on witnesses for God. Jehovah's Witnesses didn't exist before the 19th century. Any other statement is just a historical fiction. Just like Abraham wasn't a Muslim despite Islamic attempts to convince us so since he "surrendered" to God and Islam means "surrender." See the same flawed logic at work?
     
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  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    How pathetic.
     
    #102 metis, Oct 30, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
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  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Ever hear of a "family argument"?

    Historians know of at least four different Pharisee traditions, and whether Jesus recognized himself as a Pharisee we cannot say. But his approach is very much of the Pharisees in terms of what he believed and taught, but much more on the liberal side of things.
    Again, another pathetic stereotype coming from you. Let me use the JW's as an example of what's so wrong with that.

    Here in the States at least, JW's occupy the lowest 1/3 educationally of those who profess to believe in God, so let's say I post "JW's are educationally not that intelligent". One can argue that it's true, but I don't because I believe it's an unethical stereotype. And yet you stereotype other religions and denominations all the time. It is a form of lying.

    Then why would Paul say he was a Pharisee in Acts if he wasn't? Being a Pharisee is not genetic-- it's a choice.

    Another bold-faced lie from you as I have previously linked you to numerous official Catholic sites that proclaim that this is not allowed in Catholicism. Have you no shame whatsoever, Deeje???

    And this also has been shown you from official Catholic sources that it is not the way it's done in Catholicism as praying through, not to, the saints and Mary is to be done if it's done at all.

    Because of you previous claims that all need to follow "the Law", which is why I linked you to the 613 Laws/Commandments, remember. And then what the JW teachers have you do is to cherry-pick the Law, saying "X" are important but the others aren't. For example, do you believe in the Ten Commandments? One of them deals with the necessity of observing Sabbath, so is that important or not?

    As long as you as you blindly follow and recite what your JW leaders have told you to believe, you'll never find out the Truth, which one can easily do by looking up things on their own, such as visiting official sites to get information from the "horse's mouth". Your leaders are lying to you and you are paying them to do that. Maybe take a chance and really start looking things up for yourself.
     
    #103 metis, Oct 30, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And what scripture should I consult for that? It sounds like an excuse to promote something that is totally irrelevant.

    Jesus, in everything he ever taught, denounced the scribes and Pharisees at every opportunity. You have ignored the entire 23rd chapter of Matthew, not to mention the other occasions where he told them that they were "from their father the devil". (John 8:37-47)

    Rubbish. Jesus was pro-scripture, not pro-Pharisee. Read his words. He answered the devil's temptations with the words "it is written" and quoted Hebrew scripture. He never mentioned Jewish oral tradition unless it was to condemn it.

    I guess this would show that one is arguing from a wrong premise, based on inaccurate information and therefore reaching erroneous conclusions. Just because JW's do not usually choose formal education, is nothing to do with their level of intelligence...it is a choice based on how much we value our spiritual education over an academic one. Jesus was not formally educated and neither were any of the 12. In fact Jesus praised his Father for revealing his truth to "young children" rather than to the pompous ones who saw their education as making them superior to the 'unlearned'. (Matthew 11:25-26) :rolleyes:

    We are educated in many fields that do not require a university degree. There are other ways to acquire an education in order to gain employment you know. Earning a living for us is just that....we do not value a materialistic lifestyle. That is not what makes us successful in God's eyes.

    Paul was making a defense for himself before Jews. They were seeking to kill him. He was appealing to them, as a fellow Jew, from a Pharisee's educational background and family lineage. His other comments confirm that he was formerly a Pharisee. He would hardly remain in that system, so roundly condemned by his Lord. He would not have suffered as much persecution if he had still behaved as a Pharisee. He became very ashamed of his former course.

    Oh please....shame??? Who has more shame than the Catholic Church? o_O Glass houses are not the places from which to throw stones. This is about truth, which Jesus promoted over man made tradition. What are official Catholic sites going to tell me? That Idolatry is NOT practiced by the church....

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Are you kidding me or is the church kidding you?

    You offer no reasons for why there is an Egyptian obelisk, originally dedicated to the sun god Ra, right in the middle of a Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's Square. You have consistently ignored this fact. Please explain why these thing are even there. These have nothing to do with Christianity, but everything to do with sun worship.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    You think the Catholic Church does something different to what the Pharisees did? Didn't Jesus say that they failed to practice what they teach?

    Where will I find prayer offered through the saints mentioned in scripture? There is only "one mediator" appointed by God....so why does your church add to what the scriptures say? (1 Timothy 2:5)

    There is no idolatry in the Catholic church......
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Seriously? If God's law was not to even "make" an image.....what is going on here? (Exodus 20:4-5)

    Remember, you don't have to justify these things to me....but you will have to justify them to the one whom you claim to worship.

    Jesus gave his disciples the law of love. (Matthew 22:25-40) There was no requirement to observe the Sabbath if one was not Jewish. And the Ten Commandments are things that Jesus upheld as a Jew under Law.
    The circumcision issue was settled with a decision from the elders in Jerusalem. There was no necessity for Gentiles to circumcise their children or to observe the Sabbath. (Acts15:28-29) These were not part of the "necessary things" for all Christians, though Jews could still observe the law, since it was a perfect set of directions for his people. The sacrifices were no longer required because Christ had paid for our sins with one monumental, never to be repeated act of sacrifice.

    The "Sabbath" for the Catholic Church somehow gravitated to the day that Romans honored their sun god.....strange coincidence that....[​IMG]

    Your replies make me think of the truth of Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4......there are none so "blind" as those who will not see. Like I said...it isn't what you address, metis....it's what you ignore that tells the true story. Are you not guilty of everything you point fingers at me for? I believe your leaders have been lying to their ignorant flocks for centuries....you are free to disagree with me on that.

    You choose your form of worship and I will choose mine. We will both know when the judgment comes...won't we?
     
    #104 Deeje, Oct 30, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Please demonstrate how this is true using the chapter's context. I am wondering how Jesus can support something he has condemned outright. :shrug:

    And what do you consider a "good translation"?

    NASB..."Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

    Is that one good enough? Whatever the case, they were to be removed from Moses' seat because they were found to be unworthy to remain on it.

    After giving a telling illustration about a vineyard whose workers were scheming frauds and murderers, (the chief priests and elders knew he was talking about the Pharisees) Jesus said....

    " Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” 41 They said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”

    42 Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,

    ‘The stone which the builders rejected,
    This became the chief corner stone;
    This came about from the Lord,
    And it is marvelous in our eyes’?


    43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it." (Matthew 21:40-43 NASB)


    So this is what we believe.....we have no reason to disbelieve Jesus with the record of disobedience and unfaithfulness that Israel had already established.

    I don't use the NWT much for the reason that people think its mistranslated. I often quote from the NASB or the ESV or even the NRSV...because they all say the same things really.
    Who told you that the NWT is not a good translation? The People in Christendom? How unusual.....:p

    What renderings do you have a problem with? I would love to explore them with you.

    Which would be because he was a Jew born under Law.....no? He never told people to break God's law, but once his sacrifice ended the law, true to Jesus' words, God chose a new nation (Acts 15:14) under a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-33) and these produced the right fruit .....but not for long because imperfect humans, true to form, always corrupt the teachings of God. Jesus foretold that "Christianity" would emulate Judaism....."weeds" of fake Christianity would come up and men would draw away the disciples after themselves. People would have their "ears tickled" rather than be told the truth. (Acts 20:30; 2 Timothy 4:1-5)

    Bad logic for whom? We chose our name very carefully because there have always been witnesses for Jehovah who were sticklers for the truth....mostly preaching to a hostile audience.

    We are not just label wearers, but live up to our name because in every nation we are known for our witnessing. We don't just call ourselves by that name, we carry out the same work that God's witnesses have always done. We try to obey everything that Jesus taught....even the difficult things like preaching. (Matthew 28:19-20)

    LOL....this makes me smile. :D How dare we take on a name that identifies us as witnesses for Jehovah, our God! Jesus was a witness for Jehovah, as were all the Hebrew prophets.....you can say whatever you wish about that......it alters nothing for us. We know who we are and we believe God does too. (2 Timothy 2:19) :)
     
    #105 Deeje, Oct 31, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Another lie. It is not Babylonian but Indian, the wheel at the Konark sun temple in Odisha. I do not think Babylonians could ever make anything like that. Every inch of the temple carved beautifully (including the erotic images). Simply stupendous.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You said..."the wheel at the Konark sun temple in Odisha. I do not think Babylonians could ever make anything like that."

    The wheel originated in Babylon....sun worship originated in Babylon. Just because India has an ornate version of the wheel does not rule out its ancient roots.
     
  8. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    No reason to believe that. Aryans were worshiping Adityas (sons of Goddess Aditi) from the hoary past in Eurasian steppes. The Aditi reference is perhaps from 6,000 BC. At that time the sun arose in the asterism of Castor and Pollux (Sanskrit: Punarvsu, Goddess: Aditi) on the day of vernal equinox and that was the beginning of the Aryan year. Sun worship was prevalent in many aboriginal cultures.
     
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  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Beyond the five books of Torah, there was little agreement on which other books were divinely inspired, and the books that eventually were chosen were those largely used by the Pharisees, plus the quotes as found in the NT that refer back to the Tanakh only come from their books. The Jewish scholars had around 2000 books/letters to choose from when they made their selection.

    Jesus' emphasis on "laws made by men" that he so detested were teachings from the Oral Law that the mainline Pharisee element taught, not the liberal Pharisees. One Christian theologian that I personally know calls them "Love Pharisees" because of their emphasis on love. Sound familiar, Deeje?

    It's so funny in a rather "telling" way that you bristle when I just used an example that's based on studies here in the States (PEW especially), and yet I can't help but notice that you dismiss these studies as "erroneous conclusions" and yet provide no evidence for your assertion. Again, you show a double standard and a propensity to fabricate stories.

    On top of that, you bristle about any questioning of the JW's and yet you make all sorts of nasty claims against other Christian denominations and other religions. Hypocrisy much.

    Oh, so after his conversion, Paul lied about who he was. I guess that I believe Paul more than you do.

    And you can't help but to lie again as idolatry involves praying to a material object and expecting it to do something. Catholic teachings forbid praying to any object. If I make an object, that's not idolatry; but if I take an object and worship it, that's "idolatry". See the difference?

    Lying about what Catholicism actually does teach is just one indication of the true character of the JW teachers, I hate to say. They have repeatedly lied to you on this, as well as numerous other things, and yet you continue to blindly follow what they have brainwashed you to believe. I truly feel sorry for you, and I mean it.

    Then why don't you show it and stop judging others in negative ways, which is also what Jesus taught. It's called "respect", even if you solidly disagree with what another group or person may believe. You don't show respect, Deeje-- you show bigotry, whereas you and your JW's parade yourself around like peacocks and condemn everyone else-- and then you get angry if anyone dares to criticize the JW's in any way. That's called "hypocrisy".

    Exactly!!!

    Now at least have the common decency of not condemning others simply because they may disagree with what the JW teachers have been teaching you on certain matters. Maybe take John 3:16 seriously as it really is that simple.
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    He NEVER condemned it outright.

    Let's look at all the verses that pertain, or may pertain.

    1. Matthew 23:1-3
    We have dealt with this. You asked the question what is a good translation. The three best Christian Scripturesw for translational scholarship are the New International Version (NIV), and the New Revised Standard Version.

    NIV The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.

    NRSV The Scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat.


    If you go to Bible Hub, you will see that the overwhelming majority of translations translate it the same or say that they have the authority to teach the law.

    The translations that use the different verb tense (seated themselves) are untrue to the greek and are translating with a jaundiced eye simply because they do not want to acknowledge that the pharisees had this authority.

    We can trace the authority of the seventy elders in the Torah, who were chosen by Moses and given absolute authority by God himself to interpret law in Deuteronomy 17:8-13. Elders-->Judges-->Rabbis (Pharisees and Scribes), the highest court of authority still being one of seventy (Sanhedrin).

    2. Jesus teaches his followers to "DO AND OBSERVE EVERYTHING" the Pharisees teach. That would be both the written Torah (the 613 laws) and the Oral Torah (the instructions how to follow them, such as how to keep the Shabbat). It makes no sense to say that this teaching ended on his death. Why would he make such a point of teaching something that would be true for only a few months? However, it is true that it only applies to Jews and not to Gentiles -- remember that Jesus said he only came for the lost sheep (sinners) of the house of Israel, so he was not speaking to Gentiles.

    3. In the same chapter, Jesus royally chews out the Pharisees for their hypocrisy--they tended to keep the Oral Torah, but missed keeping the basics of the Written Torah. However, this is off the topic of our conversation.

    4. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus instructs the Pharisees to first keep the basics of the Writtten Torah, but then to also keep the Oral Torah (the spice tax).

    5. The Pharisees agreed on 99% of the Oral Torah. However, there was some disagreement. There were two schools. The school that followed Rabbi Hillel wanted to make the law easier for people to follow. Hillel was known to have said, "What is hateful to you do not do to others; this is the whole of the Torah." The teachings of Jesus, except for his ruling on divorce, followed the school of Hillel. The school that followed Rabbi Shammai was extremely strict and made life difficult for people. During the ministry of Jesus, the school of Shammai ruled the Sanhedrin. These two schools argued with each other all the time -- it was basic Jewish tradition. You will find many of these arguments in the Talmud. The arguments of Jesus with the Pharisees can be seen as arguments between bet Hillel and bet Shammai.

    6. Let's take a look at Mark 7:8-9 "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions".And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!" Two points: 1) This is the same admonishment. as Matthew 23:23 -- keep the 613 first. It doesn't mean not to keep the Oral Torah. It simply means to keep things in priority. 2) Jesus did not accept the legitimacy of the rulings of bet Shammai. He utterly rejected their harsh teachings like you couldn't carry within a home on Shabbat or you couldn't heal with prayer on Shabbat.

    7. Many of Jesus own teachings were already parts of the Oral Torah, such as "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath," and "Let your yes be yes and your no be no."

    8. Jesus followed the Oral Torah tradition of "building a fence around the Torah" when he taught that lusting was a form of adultery and rage a form of murder.
     
    #110 IndigoChild5559, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is a fair bit to address so I'll break it up.....

    It actually doesn't matter......either way, they were going to be "unseated" if you read the rest of my post.

    I like Bible gateway personally.....So who are the best judges of how Christian scripture is rendered? Those who translate them? I put the NIV right up there with the KJV as far as bias in translation is concerned, but people will choose what supports their view. Everyone has their favorite. You get the same overall message from any of them if you keep a concordance handy.

    What versions of the Tanach do you recommend....and why?

    From the NASB....Matthew 23:2-3.... “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

    Obviously there was a great discrepancy between what they taught and what they practiced.....so hypocrites as teachers do not bode well for the people.....do they? They are way more likely to follow an example....especially a bad one, rather than hollow words.

    Verses 30-33 tell us what Jesus conclusion of the matter meant in the big picture.....

    29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell [gehenna] ?"

    Does Jesus sound like he is supporting the Pharisees in any way? There is no coming back from "Gehenna". It was the worst penalty one could suffer.

    True....but nowhere did Jesus tell Jews not to uphold God's laws.Why would he?
    Yet there was a definite feature of the "new covenant" that was different from the old covenant foretold by Jeremiah....

    "The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:31-33 RSV)

    There was no longer a need for a written code of law. The "new covenant" was to be written on hearts, prompting God's worshippers to obey him from their heart, not from a book of laws that had been added to in the most ridiculously rigid way.

    Since Jesus 'fulfilled the law' by offering his "once and for all time" sacrifice, the sacrificial laws were no longer necessary. Jesus upheld the parts of the law pertaining to morality, and he reinstated God's original standard for marriage, but primarily, he taught the two basic laws on which all the laws were based....'love of God and neighbor'.
    These are the only two laws that Christians live by. They are inscribed on hearts....governed by conscience.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yep....nothing to do with anything....:rolleyes: Are you serious?

    Vs13; 15...“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves." (Matthew 23:13,15 NRSV)

    The "woes" were coming because of their hypocritical failure to live up to their own teachings. "Chewed out" is an understatement......"gehenna" was waiting for them....hardly a smack on the wrist.

    You mean verses 23-24?
    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!"
    Matthew 23:23-24 NRSV

    I think we get the message....but did they?

    LOL.....since the Pharisees did not practice what they taught, the disagreements between the "schools" are hardly relevant.

    1) Jesus was a Jew under law, so why would he not uphold the Torah? He tackled the Oral Law by saying "you heard it was said"....then he continued..."but I say to you".....(Matthew 5 from verse 21). So he was not cancelling the law but expanding on why someone would break the law.....the steps that might lead to an infraction, showing that obedience to the law required understanding, not just the words, but the principles behind them.

    2) Jesus was never a supporter of sectarianism. Why would he be....especially if these different 'schools' were all promoting their own views? Someone once told me that you can ask ten Jews the same question and get ten different answers....and they would all be right....! Does that sound like Jews value truth to you?

    Jesus also quoted Isaiah 29:13 so there is no way that the Jewish leaders had changed their ways.

    That is a bit of a stretch since it was the Pharisees who accused Jesus and his disciples of breaking the Sabbath for grasping a few grains of wheat whilst walking through a field. Was that harvesting?....and threshing?
    Why would a truthful person not let his word mean what he said?

    No I'm sorry, he was not following "the Oral Torah tradition of building a fence around the Torah"....he was demonstrating what leads to committing adultery in the first place. Isn't that what the problem was with the rigid legalistic approach? You obey the letter of the law without understanding the principles upon which it was based. The Pharisees could "strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel" because they never saw the big picture. They saw the letter of the law and sought to take it to an extreme degree, but they never appreciated the principles underpinning it. They nit picked the small and inconsequential things, but ignored the "weightier matters, like justice, mercy and faithfulness".
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Says who? Not Jesus.

    Jesus is very clear. His followers are to abide by the teachings of the Pharisees DESPITE their hypocrisy. The warning is simply not to be distracted and led astray by their actions. But it never says that their hypocrisy invalidates their teaching, either then or in the future.
     
    #113 IndigoChild5559, Nov 2, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Whose word is it metis? You think that Paul lied when he said that "all scripture is inspired of God"? (2 Timothy 3:16) If God inspired it, then he can also choose what belongs in it, and preserve it for the generations to come.

    Doesn't it stand to reason that Jesus stuck closely to scripture rather than to oral laws because one did not really agree with the other.? He and his disciples showed disdain for the oral laws by refusing to perform what God's word did not require. (Matthew 15:3)

    As the Pharisees collected existing oral traditions and searched for Scriptural implication to establish more of their own, they saw the need to give added authority to their activity. A new concept regarding the origin of these traditions was born. The rabbis began to teach: “Moses received Torah at Sinai and handed it on to Joshua, Joshua to elders, and elders to prophets. And prophets handed it on to the men of the great assembly.” (Avot 1:1, the Mishnah.)

    In saying, “Moses received Torah,” the rabbis were referring not only to the written laws but to all their oral traditions. They claimed that these traditions (invented and developed by men) were given to Moses by God at Sinai. And they taught that God had not left it up to men to fill in the gaps but had orally defined what the written Law had left unsaid. According to them, Moses passed this oral law down through the generations, not to the priests, but to other leaders. The Pharisees themselves claimed to be the natural inheritors of this “unbroken” chain of authority....does this sound familiar? o_O

    Is that what you think I did? I merely stated that the premise upon which that conclusion was reached was flawed. Our academic record of achievement has nothing to do with our level of intelligence. We simply choose not to elevate education as a means to measure success in life. We succeed in all the important areas and we see that God doesn't value 'higher education' anyway.....the very reason why Jesus did not choose any who were educated up to the standard that the Pharisee valued was because most imitated the conduct of their hypocritical teachers. You remember the "blind guides" analogy that Jesus used? We don't need a college education in order to become a "blind guide".

    I bristle? o_O Do I bristle any more than you do? We are used to copping flack because Jesus told us to expect it (Matthew 5:1; John 15:18-21).....the difference is that the flack aimed at us has no foundation in truth. Whereas the things aimed at Roman Catholicism are part of recorded history.

    No, he was not lying about who he was. He identified himself as one of them....but other scripture I shared with you showed it was past tense.
    Paul had a very specific way of appealing to the people he spoke to....

    "For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law) so that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, so that I might by any means save some." (1 Corinthians 9:19-22NRSV Catholic Edition)

    Do you see why he presented himself to Jews as a Jew? To those under Law he became as one under law even though he was no longer obligated to follow it....keep trying metis, I'm sure that if you read the scriptures for yourself you will see a good many things that you seem to fail to see now.

    In spite of seeing the idolatry with your own eyes....yet here you are justifying it. God's law to Israel was not to "make" an image of "anything" and use it in worship (Exodus 20:3-5).....When did God say that he had changed his mind on that score? You can "see that difference" to convince yourself....but how do you convince God though? (1 John 5:21)

    Like the Pharisees, the Catholic church does not practice what it teaches.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    This is idolatry......you can call it whatever you like.....the church "made images" and uses them in worship....that is a complete violation of God's command.
    Did Jesus use images in his worship? Did the Jews? Why do Catholics?

    Please reserve your pity for yourself and those whom I believe have been ensnared by an apostate church who has taught nothing but lies from the beginning.

    Jesus made no excuses for false worship.....the people would never have known how corrupt the Pharisees were if he and his disciples had not exposed them for what they were. I think we as Christians have a similar obligation. How will people know unless someone tells them the truth?
    Your lives are at stake here....you think all I want to be is right? :facepalm:

    Instead of getting all offended, can you not think of why Jesus preached against the establishment of Judaism, whilst preaching to their "lost sheep"? He was trying to show them why the religious leaders had lost their way, and help them to find the way out of corrupt and hypocritical religious system. It was not reformable so they had to separate from it.....Revelation 18:4 is telling Christ's disciples to once again, "get out" of a corrupt religious system.

    You seem to miss the fact that my issues with the Catholic church have very little to do with my being a JW. I was raised in Christendom and I have always despised "the church" for its non-biblical teachings and its blatant hypocrisy. No one violates the Bible quite like Roman Catholicism does. I can give you a long list.....just for scriptural violations....but you would justify them.That is of course, your prerogative.

    But take the scripture you just quoted e.g....John 3:16..." For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

    There is so much concentration on the first part of that verse, that many don't even acknowledge the rest.....God loved the world of mankind and gave his precious son to pay the price for our sins....why? Because he doesn't want to punish those people who fail to "believe" (to exercise faith) in God and to worship him acceptably. (2 Peter 3:9) How does he penalize those who fail in that regard? He will completely eliminate them from existence.....that is what "perish" means......being "destroyed".


    Is this what your church teaches?

    How much of the Bible do you really know metis? Does it form the basis for what you believe? If it doesn't...then because scripture formed the basis for all that Jesus taught.....please tell me why it doesn't ?
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Well now I am beginning to question your comprehension skills.....o_O

    42 Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,

    The stone which the builders rejected,
    This became the chief corner stone
    ;
    This came about from the Lord,
    And it is marvelous in our eyes’?


    43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it." (Matthew 21:40-43 NASB)


    Jesus then goes on to say in verses 45-46...."When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they realized that he was speaking about them. 46 They wanted to arrest him, but they feared the crowds, because they regarded him as a prophet."

    Caught between a rock and a hard place, weren't they? How specific would you like Jesus to be? Was "gehenna" not where Jesus said they would go?
    What does gehenna mean to a Jew?

    Sorry, but that is an extremely weak argument given what is written in Matthew 23.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    This is just simply not the case.

    1. There is evidence that Jesus observed the Oral Torah, as did his Disciples. For example, SOME of his disciples didn't ritually wash their hands. That means that Jesus and the rest DID.

    2. The only time Jesus is accused of breaking Oral Torah is when he healed on the Shabbat. But this was a DISPUTED interpretation in his day, being a rendering of the school of Shammai. Jesus' teachings (except on divorce) were of the school of Hillel. According to the school of Hillel, Jesus did not break Jewish la-2w when he healed on the Sabbath via prayer. And it was this interpretation that became halakha in Judaism.

    3. In Matthew 23:1-2, Jesus acknowledges that the Pharisees have the God given authority given to the 70 elders in Deuteronomy 17:8-13. He instructs his followers to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach, which means both the Written Torah and Oral Torah.

    4. In Matthew 23:23 Jesus instructs the Pharisees to get their priorities in order, and first obey the basics of the Written Torah and THEN they are to ALSO obey the ORAL Torah (spice tax).

    5. In Mark 7:8-9, Jesus talks about the Pharisees putting aside the Written Torah and obeying the Oral Torah (which Judaism does not teach). They are justly admonished. But as Matthew 23:23 shows, it doesn't mean to throw away the Oral Torah, but merely to get priorities straight.

    6. Jesus actually TAUGHT Oral Torah, such as "Let your yes be yes and your no be no," or "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath."

    7. Jesus, using Rabbinical tradition, added to Oral Torah by "building a fence around the Torah." For example, he taught that lust was a form of adultery and rage was a form of murder.
     
    #116 IndigoChild5559, Nov 3, 2018
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  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    None of the verses you have given speak to the end of the Sinai covenant.

    And THEN there is dealing with Genesis 17:7, where God says his Covenant with Abraham and his descendants through Isaac is EVERLASTING. Feel up to it?
     
    #117 IndigoChild5559, Nov 3, 2018
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  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is but I can understand why you need to dismiss it....

    Is that a deduction my dear Watson?

    Matthew 15:1-3 ..."Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands before they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? "

    Sounds like none of them did it. According to my sources, the tradition of hand-washing developed with time. First it was a ritual washing before meals. Then the washing took place before and after meals, and later the more rigorous worshipers washed between the courses of the meal. For some food hands had to be immersed completely, and for other types the hands were to have special water poured over them, running down over the wrists. This water was now considered to be dirty, so if any ran back onto the hands, they had to be washed again to take off the dirty water. The Talmud sets out the penalty for failure: “He who lightly esteems hand-washing will perish from the earth.” They were busy washing their hands, but they never got around to cleansing their heart!
    Do you not see the problem here?

    Squabbles within Judaism do not apply to Jesus who set his disciples straight on what was Law, and what was the legalistic nonsense added to it.
    He never instructed them to wash their hands the way the Jewish leaders insisted it be done.

    From the Tanach....Deuteronomy 17:9-13..... " 9 And you shall come to the Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment.
    10 And you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they instruct you.
    11 According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left.
    12 And the man who acts intentionally, not obeying the kohen who stands there to serve the Lord, your God, or to the judge that man shall die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel.
    13 And all the people shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer act wantonly."

    Do you see the proviso mentioned there? The people were to inquire of the Levite Priests and wait for their judgment of matters. But it was according to God's Law that the judgment was rendered....not according to the oral traditions that were not even in existence when Moses wrote the Pentateuch.


    Whatever was according to God's law, they were to obey. Please don't assume that the Talmud replaced or even found equal footing with the Torah.
    The Talmud also reflects the influence of superstition and Greek philosophy on Jewish thinking, including the notion that the soul is immortal. This was not an ancient Jewish belief.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It was not all of them, but just some. See Mark 7:2: and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed.


    I would be interested in your sources. If true, it is likely describing onerous practices of bet Shammai during the disputed period. As I said in my last post, it was the interpretations of bet Hillel that became Jewish law (and which Jesus followed). We only wash our hand before the meal, and we do so by pouring water on our hands. A special blessing is said while we do this. It's pretty simple.

    Why do you assume that Jews who ritually wash hands are not concerned with clean hearts? I am a Jew who ritually washes my hands and I can assure you I am very much concerned with the state of my heart. "Create in me a clean heart O God."

    You can't possibly know that. If nothing else, he taught by example. How many knots shall be used to tie the tassles on the four corners of our garments... How do we strap on the tefillin (the boxes containing little Torah verses to be a sign on the forehead and arm)... How far can we walk on the Shabbat... and much much more.


    You left off verse 8:
    If cases come before your courts that are too difficult for you to judge--whether bloodshed, lawsuits or assaults--take them to the place the LORD your God will choose.


    IOW, if you don't know how to apply the Torah, you create Oral Torah in order to keep the Written Torah.


    I don't think you understand. These rulings by the elders/judges and levites/kohanim BECAME the Oral Torah. For example, we are not to work on the Shabbat. But what exactly is work? we must have agreement! Thus the judges and levites formed the Oral Torah regarding the 39 Melachot. I must not go to the right nor to the left--so has God himself commanded.
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jeremiah foretold the end of the old covenant and it being replaced by the new one. Jesus instituted it and because Israel failed to recognize their Messiah, they were replaced by a people who would produce the goods. (Acts 15:14) Jesus said that the kingdom would be taken away from Israel and that is exactly what happened. Why would anyone be surprised when taking into consideration their track record?

    I know Jews chafe at this thought. but many Jews have come to realize that they were wrong about Jesus. We believe that Christ fulfilled the Law and finished the old covenant, instituting the new covenant with his disciples on Passover night of 33C.E. All of his first disciples were Jewish.

    I can see from scripture that God changed what it meant to be "Jewish"....so the covenant remained in force. It was a covenant made with the most faithful man alive at the time, but his offspring did not follow his sterling example.

    John the Baptist said that just being related to Abraham was not enough....Matthew 3:9....

    "Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our ancestor’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham."

    He raised up children for Abraham from the Gentiles when Israel did not fulfill the numbers. But it was always prophesied that only a remnant of fleshly Israel would be saved anyway. (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27)

    Why the heck not...? :D
     
    #120 Deeje, Nov 3, 2018
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