How many can say...

[Sand Dancer]

I've already imagined an existence without God, and I'm okay with it. However, I don't believe it is a place with no goodness or beauty, no friends or pleasure of any kind. "Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky."

And actually, countries without gods tend to do better than the ones with them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well that's one way of looking at it. I don't see how free will can be real if the only choice had been to obey him, though.

Free will doesn't exist.

 

[Twilight Hue]

And actually, countries without gods tend to do better than the ones with them.

I'll say. It's harder to scam people that are not willing to throw hands full of cash at you

 

[anna.]

Free will doesn't exist.

This should be a thread itself, or is there one?

I read Sam Harris' book on free will a few years ago. I have mixed feelings about him and some of his views but he made a good argument for determinism, but then I probably don't know enough to know with certainty that he made a good argument for it.

I like the idea of free will, but I admit to being swayed by determinism.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I've already imagined an existence without God, and I'm okay with it. However, I don't believe it is a place with no goodness or beauty, no friends or pleasure of any kind. "Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky."

I always find that song depressing.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Free will doesn't exist.

Of course it does. You cannot even act as if it doesn't. Try it sometime.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I always find that song depressing.

Not me. It's a song of hope, IMHO.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Of course it does. You cannot even act as if it doesn't. Try it sometime.

According to scripture, God predestines people for salvation before the foundation of the world, so there is no free will for them. It's written that many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). God predestines the people whom he will save from hell.

"To do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:28

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." Proverbs 16:4

"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace." Galatians 1:15

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Romans 8:29

"Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." Ephesians 1:4-5

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:11-12

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love." Ephesians 1:3-4

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30

 

[Wildswanderer]

According to scripture, God predestines people for salvation before the foundation of the world, so there is no free will for them. It's written that many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). God predestines the people whom he will save from hell.

"To do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:28

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." Proverbs 16:4

"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace." Galatians 1:15

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Romans 8:29

"Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." Ephesians 1:4-5

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:11-12

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love." Ephesians 1:3-4

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30

You totally misunderstand predestination. God doesn't predestine individuals, he chooses a plan that will include some individuals choosing him.
Look up the arminian understanding of scripture.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You totally misunderstand predestination. God doesn't predestine individuals, he chooses a plan that will include some individuals choosing him.
Look up the arminian understanding of scripture.

I know what Arminianism is, and it's a disputed doctrine. Case in point, What is Arminianism, and is it biblical? In fact, Calvinism vs. Arminianism is an old, drawn out theological debate, and I don't feel like getting into it any further than what I already have.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Not me. It's a song of hope, IMHO.

It's refreshing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This should be a thread itself, or is there one?

I read Sam Harris' book on free will a few years ago. I have mixed feelings about him and some of his views but he made a good argument for determinism, but then I probably don't know enough to know with certainty that he made a good argument for it.

I like the idea of free will, but I admit to being swayed by determinism.

I read that book to challenge my views on the subject and it totally demolished my former position.
And there's been threads, it's just hard to find anyone who can engage in a good argument for the existence of free will.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Of course it does. You cannot even act as if it doesn't. Try it sometime.

I act like it doesn't on a very regular basis, every day, every waking moment. Such as being autistic. That has a profound impact on who I am as a person. Nor did I choose to be trans. And I especially don't choose to get PMS symptoms when my hormones get out of whack. I was even pushed out of the church by factors outside of my control.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I act like it doesn't on a very regular basis, every day, every waking moment. Such as being autistic. That has a profound impact on who I am as a person. Nor did I choose to be trans. And I especially don't choose to get PMS symptoms when my hormones get out of whack. I was even pushed out of the church by factors outside of my control.

None of the things that happen to us negate free will. We still make multiple free choices every day.
No one says we can choose everything. I bet you still look both ways before you cross the street. If free will doesn't exist, why bother?

 

[Viker]

How many can say you look at people/life like this?

-I don't care if you are gay or straight. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-I don't care if you are left or right. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-I don't care if you have faith or not. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-I don't care if you love or hate Trump. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-I don't care if you are vaccinated or not. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

- I don't care if you believe in a god or not. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

I don't care if you are a trans male or a trans female. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-Etc


Here's a recent example where some thought I was against a trans person which brought on this post.

The thread I posted about a trans person dominating female athletes. Its not the trans person that bothers me, its what they are doing that does. I think its unfair to the other females.

I believe in treat others fairly, live your life and let others live theirs, don't be an *** because someone is different than you or disagrees with you. We all only get one life, there is no rewind or redo button...live to be happy and let others do the same.

Im not perfect and I don't expect others to be perfect either. Have a great night.

This is usually what I want to say. Sometimes I really mean some of this. But I have moments I do care.

I can't stand flagrant bigotry.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

None of the things that happen to us negate free will. We still make multiple free choices every day.
No one says we can choose everything. I bet you still look both ways before you cross the street. If free will doesn't exist, why bother?

I look because it was ingrained into at a very early age, and to practice caution when crossing a street. That's really not a choice. It's just an automated response to the situation. Especially as I do this without consciously thinking of it, to the point I check both ways even on one ways.

 

[We Never Know]

How many can say you look at people/life like this?

-I don't care if you are gay or straight. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-I don't care if you are left or right. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-I don't care if you have faith or not. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-I don't care if you love or hate Trump. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-I don't care if you are vaccinated or not. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

- I don't care if you believe in a god or not. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

I don't care if you are a trans male or a trans female. I don't think you're a bad person and have nothing bad to say about you.

-Etc


Here's a recent example where some thought I was against a trans person which brought on this post.

The thread I posted about a trans person dominating female athletes. Its not the trans person that bothers me, its what they are doing that does. I think its unfair to the other females.

I believe in treat others fairly, live your life and let others live theirs, don't be an *** because someone is different than you or disagrees with you. We all only get one life, there is no rewind or redo button...live to be happy and let others do the same.

Im not perfect and I don't expect others to be perfect either. Have a great night.

Thanks for the interesting replies.
Its like this for me...What someone does, if it doesn't affect my life, I don't care.