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How likely is it that guards were posted at the tomb of Jesus?

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Pointless speculation aside, the early Christian writers lead us to conclude that they have no knowledge of a Jesus of Nazareth, nor do they have any knowledge of the story of an empty tomb. One can speculate 'till the cows come home about why they don't write of these things, but the point is that nothing they write can lead us to conclude that they had any knowledge of what the gospels portray. The story of an empty tomb first surfaces in the gospel of Mark, not written until 67CE at the earliest and no later than 90CE. Believers can pretend to know what isn't there but they are only fooling themselves.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Pointless speculation aside, the early Christian writers lead us to conclude that they have no knowledge of a Jesus of Nazareth, nor do they have any knowledge of the story of an empty tomb. One can speculate 'till the cows come home about why they don't write of these things, but the point is that nothing they write can lead us to conclude that they had any knowledge of what the gospels portray. The story of an empty tomb first surfaces in the gospel of Mark, not written until 67CE at the earliest and no later than 90CE. Believers can pretend to know what isn't there but they are only fooling themselves.
So 67 C.E. doesn't account for being an early Christian document?

Paul states that he believes that Jesus physically resurrected. It is only logical to then assume that the tomb of Jesus would have been empty then.

Just to expand a little bit. The idea of the empty tomb rests on the assumption, which Paul subscribed to, that Jesus was resurrected. That is the the point of the empty tomb, that Jesus was resurrected. If Jesus was resurrected, there was an empty tomb. There is no reason that Paul would have to state this.
 
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dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Interestingly, the Christianity that exists now, the Christianity that revolves about the gospel story of a Jesus of Nazareth and its climactic empty tomb ending can be traced back to the third century. Prior to that, Christianity was far more nebulous and varied.




The gospels read of a Jesus of Nazareth that was crucified during Pilate's time, but the earlier epistle writers don't give us so much as a clue or a hint of this, and nothing of an empty tomb. There are no non Christian sources for this character that supposedly drew huge crowds wherever he went either. The Christianity that revolves about the gospel story is very different from the early Christianity that existed before the gospels became known, and there is no indication that the gospels affected Christianity as a whole until the end of the second century, it appears to have taken that long for the gospel stories to take hold.

Second century Christian apologists weren't anymore knowledgeable of Jesus from Nazareth than the first century Christians. Athenagoras makes his beliefs known, Christ for him is a sky god:

In A Plea For the Christians addressed to the emperor, he says this of his new beliefs (10): "We acknowledge one God . . . by whom the Universe has been created through his Logos, and set in order and kept in being . . . for we acknowledge also a Son of God . . . If it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state that he is the first product of the Father (who) had the Logos in himself. He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things."

Unfortunately, in the course of 37 chapters, Athenagoras neglects to tell the emperor that Christians believe this Logos to have been incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. He dissects contemporary Platonic and Stoic philosophy, angels and demons, as well as details of various Greek myths, but he offers not a scrap about the life of the Savior.


He presents (11) Christian doctrine as things "not from a human source, but uttered and taught by God," and proceeds to quote ethical maxims very close to parts of the Sermon on the Mount: "Love your enemies; bless them that curse you . . . ." Other quotations he labels as coming from scripture, or from "our teaching." Are these ethical collections that are unattributed to Jesus? Athenagoras never uses the term "gospel"; he speaks of "the witness to God and the things of God" and enumerates the prophets and other men, yet he ignores what should have been the greatest witness of them all, Jesus of Nazareth.
JESUS PUZZLE: Preamble - Century of Apologists




Empty tomb indeed. But let's cut the early gospel writer of Mark some slack, after all he was writing metaphorically, not historically.
 
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Zadok

Zadok
Pointless speculation aside, the early Christian writers lead us to conclude that they have no knowledge of a Jesus of Nazareth, nor do they have any knowledge of the story of an empty tomb. One can speculate 'till the cows come home about why they don't write of these things, but the point is that nothing they write can lead us to conclude that they had any knowledge of what the gospels portray. The story of an empty tomb first surfaces in the gospel of Mark, not written until 67CE at the earliest and no later than 90CE. Believers can pretend to know what isn't there but they are only fooling themselves.

Not really true – we know from Christian writings (not Biblical – but considered Gnostic) near the place and time (Egypt) that Jesus was placed dead into a tomb and that his body disappeared.

Zadok
 

Zadok

Zadok
Interestingly, the Christianity that exists now, the Christianity that revolves about the gospel story of a Jesus of Nazareth and its climactic empty tomb ending can be traced back to the third century. Prior to that, Christianity was far more nebulous and varied.




The gospels read of a Jesus of Nazareth that was crucified during Pilate's time, but the earlier epistle writers don't give us so much as a clue or a hint of this, and nothing of an empty tomb. There are no non Christian sources for this character that supposedly drew huge crowds wherever he went either. The Christianity that revolves about the gospel story is very different from the early Christianity that existed before the gospels became known, and there is no indication that the gospels affected Christianity as a whole until the end of the second century, it appears to have taken that long for the gospel stories to take hold.

Second century Christian apologists weren't anymore knowledgeable of Jesus from Nazareth than the first century Christians. Athenagoras makes his beliefs known, Christ for him is a sky god:

In A Plea For the Christians addressed to the emperor, he says this of his new beliefs (10): "We acknowledge one God . . . by whom the Universe has been created through his Logos, and set in order and kept in being . . . for we acknowledge also a Son of God . . . If it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state that he is the first product of the Father (who) had the Logos in himself. He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things."

Unfortunately, in the course of 37 chapters, Athenagoras neglects to tell the emperor that Christians believe this Logos to have been incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. He dissects contemporary Platonic and Stoic philosophy, angels and demons, as well as details of various Greek myths, but he offers not a scrap about the life of the Savior.

He presents (11) Christian doctrine as things "not from a human source, but uttered and taught by God," and proceeds to quote ethical maxims very close to parts of the Sermon on the Mount: "Love your enemies; bless them that curse you . . . ." Other quotations he labels as coming from scripture, or from "our teaching." Are these ethical collections that are unattributed to Jesus? Athenagoras never uses the term "gospel"; he speaks of "the witness to God and the things of God" and enumerates the prophets and other men, yet he ignores what should have been the greatest witness of them all, Jesus of Nazareth. JESUS PUZZLE: Preamble - Century of Apologists




Empty tomb indeed. But let's cut the early gospel writer of Mark some slack, after all he was writing metaphorically, not historically.

One other thing I would add – about the year 1839 manuscripts were discovered behind a fake wall in a Christian Church at what is believe to be Mt. Sinai. The manuscripts were said to be a complete New Testament manuscript that varies somewhat from the New Testament used today. These manuscripts became the property of the Eastern Orthodox Church and were kept in Russia until the Communists take over. With the fall of Communism the manuscripts were returned to the Eastern Orthodox Church that has determined not to make these documents public.

Since these documents predate the period of time you are calling into question there is an answer. Myself – I believe my opinion will withstand any such release of documents. If necessary I will gladly adjust my opinion in the presentation of continuing evidence.

I am basing much of my opinion on the existence of the few documents that do indeed present the possibility in a way that is in complete harmony with history. I would be open to any evidence from the place and time that something else did in fact occur. In till there is contrary evidence – I am going with what does exist.

Zadok
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Interestingly, the Christianity that exists now, the Christianity that revolves about the gospel story of a Jesus of Nazareth and its climactic empty tomb ending can be traced back to the third century. Prior to that, Christianity was far more nebulous and varied.
Just because Christianity was far more nebulous and varied does not mean that many Christians didn't accept the Gospel stories. We know that they were widely circulated, by the second century. And from what we can tell, the majority of Christians used at least one of the Gospel stories. So it can actually be traced back to the first century, before Mark was actually even written, when the story was still just part of the oral tradition.

More so, the Christianity that exists now is not the same Christianity that existed in the third century. They are vastly different.
The gospels read of a Jesus of Nazareth that was crucified during Pilate's time, but the earlier epistle writers don't give us so much as a clue or a hint of this, and nothing of an empty tomb. There are no non Christian sources for this character that supposedly drew huge crowds wherever he went either. The Christianity that revolves about the gospel story is very different from the early Christianity that existed before the gospels became known, and there is no indication that the gospels affected Christianity as a whole until the end of the second century, it appears to have taken that long for the gospel stories to take hold.
All this shows is an ignorance towards what the epistles are. There is no wonder as to why the epistle writers didn't mention details of Jesus. They simply were not very interested in those aspect. Paul was more interested in the resurrected Jesus, as to him, that was what was important. He wasn't a historian, he was a theologian.

Paul was simply writing letters to different congregations that had asked questions or problems had arose in. There is no reason to assume that they would take time out of their theological endeavors. It simply did not fit into what he was doing. And really, it would have been out of place. Paul gives us little detail about anyone. He doesn't he tell us much about himself.

However, we do know that in the oral culture, the Gospel stories were already widely circulating. We know this because of where the Gospels appear. Even shortly after they are written, we see them being mentioned by more influential groups in the movement. We see Papias, in the early part of the second century, even discussing it. By the early second century, all of the Gospels had been accredited to. We even know that some of the Early Church fathers (late first to early second century) were aware of the Gospels and quoted parts of them. This shows us that they did play an important part even during the end of the first and early second century.

More so, there is a thing called exaggeration. The Gospel writers, who were not writing biographies in the strict sense of the genre, exaggerated incidents. More so, being an oral culture, that is something we can expect, to a point.

Finally, we do have Josephus, writing in the same century, speaking of Jesus. It is no wonder it took some time for others to start writing about Jesus though. He made a very little impact in an area that wasn't very much cared about.
Second century Christian apologists weren't anymore knowledgeable of Jesus from Nazareth than the first century Christians. Athenagoras makes his beliefs known, Christ for him is a sky god:
First, Atenagoras wrote during the second half of the second century. This is nearing the time that you state that the Gospels stories start effecting Christianity as a whole. So it actually doesn't support your point. Especially when we see at least four Gospels circulating, and being discussed by the early Church fathers, who were influential, in the late first to early second century. We even see by around 140 C.E. a canon being formed that uses at least one Gospel. By 160 C.E., Irenaeus refers to a four Gospel canon. A little research shows your comment to be unfounded. You can't use one example to prove your point here.
Unfortunately, in the course of 37 chapters, Athenagoras neglects to tell the emperor that Christians believe this Logos to have been incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. He dissects contemporary Platonic and Stoic philosophy, angels and demons, as well as details of various Greek myths, but he offers not a scrap about the life of the Savior. [/I]
One problem here. This Logos being incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth is only present in the Gospel of John. All this suggests is that Athenagoras did not use the Gospel of John. You can't imply anything else from that.
Empty tomb indeed. But let's cut the early gospel writer of Mark some slack, after all he was writing metaphorically, not historically.
Understanding the genre would greatly help you in this case. Knowing a little about Christian history would also help.
 

Smoke

Done here.
One other thing I would add – about the year 1839 manuscripts were discovered behind a fake wall in a Christian Church at what is believe to be Mt. Sinai. The manuscripts were said to be a complete New Testament manuscript that varies somewhat from the New Testament used today. These manuscripts became the property of the Eastern Orthodox Church and were kept in Russia until the Communists take over. With the fall of Communism the manuscripts were returned to the Eastern Orthodox Church that has determined not to make these documents public.
That sounds like a garbled account of the Codex Sinaiticus, unless you're aware of some important manuscript I've never heard of.

However, the Codex Sinaiticus didn't "become" the property of the Eastern Orthodox Church; it was the property of the Church, and listed in the library catalogue of St. Catherine's Monastery, when Tischendorf "discovered" it.

It's not all in one location today, nor was the portion in Russia returned to Sinai after the fall of Communism. Stalin sold the bulk of it in 1933 to what was then the British Museum, where it remains. A number of pages are in Germany, and there are a few pages at Sinai and a few fragments in Russia.

Nor is the Church or anybody else keeping it secret. You can even view it online: Codex Sinaiticus - Home
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
To claim that the gospels are historical accounts, that the empty tomb etc., reflect actual accounts of actual events only serves one to assume what one is trying to prove. The writings have to lead us to the conclusion that they have a place in actual history texts, not the other way around. So far they appear to be written purely for theological purposes. This is aptly demonstrated, among substantial other reasons, by the apparent changes, additions, omissions, and alterations that the later gospel writers employed when re-writing the gospel of Mark, both canonical and non canonical. We can see the progression, we can see how the gospels were put together, and they do not lead us in any way to conclude that the story in all its variances is of any historical merit, they are not demonstrated to have been written for such purposes.


We can also read the epistles for what they are and we can again see that the gospel storied account, including the empty tomb, was a later Christian development that didn't catch on until the end of the second century regardless of the one or two known references in the first half of the second century to information that could only have come from the gospels, namely from Ignatius and Justin Martyr.
 
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TEXASBULL

Member
Only Matthew mentions the guards. In my opinion, one testimony is not enough to establish evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.


ding ding ding! winner

This means one of the stories is FALSE.

That is the problem with the entire bible. The contradictions.

If your have 4 accounts of one story and they are all different. Which one is TRUE , which on is FALSE. Do we close our eyes and throw darts at a board to figure which one we go with:priest:
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
To claim that the gospels are historical accounts, that the empty tomb etc., reflect actual accounts of actual events only serves one to assume what one is trying to prove. The writings have to lead us to the conclusion that they have a place in actual history texts, not the other way around. So far they appear to be written purely for theological purposes. This is aptly demonstrated, among substantial other reasons, by the apparent changes, additions, omissions, and alterations that the later gospel writers employed when re-writing the gospel of Mark, both canonical and non canonical. We can see the progression, we can see how the gospels were put together, and they do not lead us in any way to conclude that the story in all its variances is of any historical merit, they are not demonstrated to have been written for such purposes.
Do you ever get sick of preaching? Because you seem to be ignoring what has been posted.

We can also read the epistles for what they are and we can again see that the gospel storied account, including the empty tomb, was a later Christian development that didn't catch on until the end of the second century regardless of the one or two known references in the first half of the second century to information that could only have come from the gospels, namely from Ignatius and Justin Martyr.
Again, do you ever get sick of preaching? Repeating yourself over and over again, while ignoring what is being said, is not how one debates.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
ding ding ding! winner

This means one of the stories is FALSE.

That is the problem with the entire bible. The contradictions.

If your have 4 accounts of one story and they are all different. Which one is TRUE , which on is FALSE. Do we close our eyes and throw darts at a board to figure which one we go with:priest:
In this case, no. There is no contradiction. The other Gospels do not state that there were no guards. They may suggest there were known, but they never state that there weren't.

This is part of history. If we look at the accounts of Augustus, we see differences. Do we label one account as false then? No, that isn't logical. We search to see whether or not it is plausible. We search to see why it may be added. It is much more than just simply labeling one false and the other true.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
fallingblood said:
The idea of the empty tomb rests on the assumption, which Paul subscribed to, that Jesus was resurrected. That is the the point of the empty tomb, that Jesus was resurrected. If Jesus was resurrected, there was an empty tomb. There is no reason that Paul would have to state this.

But 1) which tomb, 2) who saw the body put in a specific tomb, 3) were guards posted at the tomb, 4) why was the tomb empty, 5) is it plausible that the body was moved, 6) who were Paul's sources, and 7) aren't at least some of Paul's plausibly later interpolations?

The very first thing that we need to reasonably establish is to determine where the body was buried. What credible historical evidence do you have the body was put in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb? I am not aware of any.

Even if the body was put in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb, if guards were not posted at the tomb, which was probably the case, that greatly increases the probability that it was moved.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
But 1) which tomb, 2) who saw the body put in a specific tomb, 3) were guards posted at the tomb, 4) why was the tomb empty, 5) is it plausible that the body was moved, 6) who were Paul's sources, and 7) aren't at least some of Paul's plausibly later interpolations?

The very first thing that we need to reasonably establish is to determine where the body was buried. What credible historical evidence do you have the body was put in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb? I am not aware of any.

Even if the body was put in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb, if guards were not posted at the tomb, which was probably the case, that greatly increases the probability that it was moved.
We don't need to know where the body was buried. For all we know, it could be like John Dominic Crossan states, that his body was left for the dogs.

However, there is some reason to believe that it was placed in a tomb. The first is that it would not be expected. From my knowledge, we have one victim of crucifixion that we have found that was placed in a tomb. Most likely, the rest were left for either scavenging animals, or placed in shallow graves. So it is not what we would expect.

More so, the witnesses to the empty tomb were women. Which is strange as it is not what we would expect either considering how reliable a woman's testimony was considered during that time.

So there is some information that would suggest a possible burial. At the same time, it could be a story created simply to save Jesus from some of the embarrassment that went along with his death.

What we know is that something happened. Something happened to Paul that made him change his opinion and go from persecuting the Jesus movement, to becoming a leader. There is something that happened to the disciples to make them continue with the Jesus movement, even though we would expect them to disband shortly after the death of their leader.

There is also that the idea that Jesus was placed in a tomb was quite common during the first century. We know that it was a common idea partly because of Matthew. There is a reason why Matthew changes the story and places guards at the tomb. That is because a rumor had arisen that someone stole the body of Jesus. So Matthew makes an argument as to why that is impossible. It would also be possible that Matthew simply had a more accurate source, but I don't give much credence to that.

It is also a possibility that if Jesus was placed in a tomb, they simply did not know which one. So it would be possible that they went to the wrong tomb, saw it empty, and the story started.

So there are a lot of variables here. But one thing we can be relatively sure about is that something did impact both Paul and the disciples, and it is quite plausible that Paul got some of his information from Peter.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
How likely is it that people believe what they read in The Bible because they were told from a young age that they are true stories?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
How likely is it that people believe what they read in The Bible because they were told from a young age that they are true stories?
Or how likely is it that Christ-Mythers only can make short little comments with out any real substance?

Instead of always making belittling comments, why not try to support your position. I have posted in depth discussion on two of the pillars that Price uses for the Christ myth, as in the account on Josephus, and what Paul had to say about Jesus (which Oberon also supplied great information in). Maybe it would be worth your time to offer a rebuttal to those threads.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
To answer the question: it's just as likely that soldiers guarded the tomb as not.
 
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