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How likely is it that guards were posted at the tomb of Jesus?

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
The ten or so epistle writers didn't mention an empty tomb.

Paul could not possibly have known of the empty tomb since the story wasn't invented until after he died.

According to the story the Jesus character drew huge crowds wherever he went so of course he would have made a huge impact.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
The ten or so epistle writers didn't mention an empty tomb.

Paul could not possibly have known of the empty tomb since the story wasn't invented until after he died.

According to the story the Jesus character drew huge crowds wherever he went so of course he would have made a huge impact.
First, the epistle writers, various one who wrote after the Gospels, were writing letters. They had no reason to detail the life of Jesus. They were answering questions that had been asked or addressing problems that arose. No one was asking whether or not Jesus had resurrected or if there was an empty tomb.

Your statement about Paul needs some evidence. How can you state that the story was created after Paul died? Do you have any evidence. Not at all. Instead, it would be very logical to assume he was aware of the empty tomb story as we know that Paul believed in the resurrection of Jesus.

As for the story, why believe that one story and yet deny many of the others? We know that the story of Jesus was not 100% accurate. So your point here is moot.
 
Only Matthew mentions the guards. In my opinion, one testimony is not enough to establish evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

Well let's start by saying that stuff wasn't written until about 200 years after his supposed death. In fact there is a high probability Jesus never existed and was just a combination of stories and figures.

This aside.... Why would they post guards at his tomb? Jesus was an enemy of Rome, they would have cared less what happened to his tomb. All that mattered to the Romans at the time was that he was dead and they had killed him for his opposition to the empire, sending a message to would be rebels.
 

Zadok

Zadok
But it's not.

There is strong criticism by some on this forum concerning those that believe Jesus to be resurrected. I can understand someone not believing the resurrection – but to mount a criticism? Why?

This is what concerns me. Why bring a criticism against anyone or any group without proof? If anyone what to make a point of their opinion being better that another - where is their proof?

Zadok
 

Zadok

Zadok
Well let's start by saying that stuff wasn't written until about 200 years after his supposed death. In fact there is a high probability Jesus never existed and was just a combination of stories and figures.

This aside.... Why would they post guards at his tomb? Jesus was an enemy of Rome, they would have cared less what happened to his tomb. All that mattered to the Romans at the time was that he was dead and they had killed him for his opposition to the empire, sending a message to would be rebels.

Not true - there are documents and individuals within the 200 year period that reference Jesus.

Non-Chrisian and non-Jewish: Tacius, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger

Jewish: Philo, Josephus

Christian: Celsus, Origen

Zadok
 

Smoke

Done here.
There is strong criticism by some on this forum concerning those that believe Jesus to be resurrected. I can understand someone not believing the resurrection – but to mount a criticism? Why?
I can't speak for others. For myself, I don't think I was strongly criticizing those who believe in the resurrection. I don't think I even criticized the belief itself. I don't believe in it myself, but I realize the pointlessness of squabbling about things like that. In the post you responded to, all I was doing was contradicting your assertion about the authorship of Matthew.

I've been hearing all my life that Matthew was written by a Jewish Christian, either for Jewish Christians or in the hope of proselytizing Jews. I've never found that claim believable. Granted, the rabbinic literature I've read is of a later date, but it's of such a different character that I can't see how any rational person would direct this kind of effort at faithful Jews. Matthew so obviously takes the Jewish scriptures out of context that I can't imagine it would have had the desired effect. It's the intellectual equivalent of a Chick tract, and I just don't believe that first century Jews would have been quite so easily fooled.

Convincing first century Jews of the claims of Christianity would have been a task not unlike convincing twenty-first century Jews that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Messiah. You can always find an audience for that sort of thing, but it's always going to be a relatively small, fringe sort of audience. And in fact we don't see any mass conversion of Jews to Christianity happening. What we see, instead, is an ever-widening gap between Christianity and Judaism -- including the original Jesus community, which retained its Jewish identity and rejected much of the myth of Christianity.

I think it's far more likely that Matthew was not written either for Jews or for Jewish Christians, but for Gentile Christians, and that its goal was to demonstrate to them that Christianity had superseded Judaism.
 
Not true - there are documents and individuals within the 200 year period that reference Jesus.

Non-Chrisian and non-Jewish: Tacius, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger

Jewish: Philo, Josephus

Christian: Celsus, Origen

Zadok

First of all the name Jesus was a popular name back than, even though there are third person references it still does not suggest he existed. There is still far more evidence to show that Jesus is actually a combination of figures and myths and spread orally again for a long time before anything was written.

Again there is not 1 person during the life of Christ who wrote about him.... No commoners who would have been witness to him. As at this time things like reading and writing were for the ruling class only.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Well let's start by saying that stuff wasn't written until about 200 years after his supposed death. In fact there is a high probability Jesus never existed and was just a combination of stories and figures.

This aside.... Why would they post guards at his tomb? Jesus was an enemy of Rome, they would have cared less what happened to his tomb. All that mattered to the Romans at the time was that he was dead and they had killed him for his opposition to the empire, sending a message to would be rebels.


Here you go, and good luck.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...365-groundwork-historical-jesus-research.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-did-paul-know-anything-about-historical.html
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
All I know is, I'm hiring someone to take pictures of the guards posted at my tomb. I don't want people arguing over it for millenia to come.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Well let's start by saying that stuff wasn't written until about 200 years after his supposed death. In fact there is a high probability Jesus never existed and was just a combination of stories and figures.
We have a plethora of information on Jesus. The first mention of him comes just about 20 years after the death of Jesus by Paul. Within another couple decades, we have four full Gospels, that we know for sure. That is not mentioning Josephus.
This aside.... Why would they post guards at his tomb? Jesus was an enemy of Rome, they would have cared less what happened to his tomb. All that mattered to the Romans at the time was that he was dead and they had killed him for his opposition to the empire, sending a message to would be rebels.
To make sure that no one stole the body. That is the reason that is claimed. Putting him in the tomb itself would have been less of a message to the rebels in the first place though.

Having the body of Jesus stolen could have caused many problems. More so, it could have created a cult or the like. So there would have been reasons to guard the body as it could have caused problems, such as revolt. Now, I don't believe there was a guard at the tomb, but I can see it as a possibility.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
First of all the name Jesus was a popular name back than, even though there are third person references it still does not suggest he existed. There is still far more evidence to show that Jesus is actually a combination of figures and myths and spread orally again for a long time before anything was written.
What evidence? We have Paul, the Gospels, and Josephus all telling us that there was a historical Jesus.
Again there is not 1 person during the life of Christ who wrote about him.... No commoners who would have been witness to him. As at this time things like reading and writing were for the ruling class only.
Exactly, writing were for the ruling class primarily. So why would they write about a peasant who made very little impact? We are talking about a Jewish peasant (we have little information about first century Judaism in the first place), who lived in an oral culture, who made very little impact. Why should we assume that anyone would write about him?
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
I would have to agree. And it seemed like the empierer didn't think too much about Jesus if you go based on what happened when he didn't want to kill him and he left it up to those who were there at the "trial" so it probably wasn't him. His supporters and apostles might not have had enough money for guards against people who might have hated him enough to steal his body or something. And like the op mentioned one account isn't necessarily enough. Interesting about that.
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
That's why I said that the Gospel of Matthew added the story of bribery. It's not likely to have happend, but sort of believable.

Matt 28


We could say that the guards assigned to the tomb were executed, but other soldiers around who saw the women go into the tomb were bribed. :shrug:

How could it be believable if anyone knew about soldiers and how the military works? As someone else mentioned they'd be in serious trouble. There was another story of guards guarding prisoners (I forgot who all it was) and an earthquake happened and the guard was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped and he would've been in big trouble. So yeah a guard taking a bribe? Not likely.
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
There is far less evidence that the Dead Sea Scrolls were products of Essenes. When dealing with ancient history even remote supportive evidence is important consideration. Applying the same standards for researching something from last week is absurd.

We also must understand that when dealing with ancient history the absences of evidence is not evidence of absences. We assume evolution of particular species based on very little evidence. Many scientists believe that birds are evolved decedents of dinosaurs on less evidence let alone the absence of proof.

Is it possible that there were guards? I see no evidence at all offered that it was impossible. Is it likely from a historical stand point? Based on the political climate of the time and the lengths the Romans went through to put down any rebellion in that area – a few guards for someone (a leader of a movement at the time) convicted and put to death for sedition and treason? Very likely. Again I seen nothing to support the notion beyond suppositions completely removed from the time and place.

Understanding that the Christian movement grew at the time based on eye witnesses that were present – even though we lack their direct input the fact that there was not one shred of counter evidence – make someone look very foolish to deny the possibility.

Zadok

But why would they waste resources on someone who is considered an individual to have committed treason? And also the Roman Empirerer didn't even think twice about Jesus at the trial. He didn't see anything wrong so why would he use guards on someone who he didn't see as a threat? Just a regular citizen? There were other uses I'm sure for the guards.
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
That's exactly the point, AE: why would a rumor be circulating among the Jewish people that had anything to do with Jesus? And yet, if there were no such rumor, wouldn't the author of Matthew be shooting himself in the foot by trying to suggest that there were, and that it was already well known among the people he's speaking to?

He's not speaking to foreigners in some other part of the world who would be unfamiliar with events in Judea, he's speaking to locals about something that's supposedly (according to him) local common knowledge. They would know whether or not any such rumor actually had been circulating among them, and Matthew would be jeopardizing his credibility by suggesting there had been if there hadn't been.

Could the Jewish people being mentioned be the supporters and followers of Jesus? I remember reading in the NT (gospels mostly) that at the time there was the debate on whether or not if future Christian's had to first be Jews and then you can convert to Christianity. I'm sure at the time a lot of Jewish supporters did stay with a lot of their previous practice since it's hard to let things go sometimes. So perhaps that's the Jewish people he's talking about?
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
Many Epistle writers?

Also, how can you say that Paul was unaware of the story? Just because he doesn't mention it means absolutely nothing. He mentions very little about himself even, does that mean he wasn't aware of his own life?

You also forget that we are talking about an individual who made little impact, who was a peasant, and existed in an oral culture.

I'm sure Paul was very much aware of the story. He used to be an individual who persecuted supporters of Jesus. Wasn't he a part of the whole thing of killing Stephen? He was someone who was very involved in politics and had a very good education etc. So yeah he more than likely had at least heard of it.
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
Oh and one thing I was thinking about from my Humanities class studying about the Roman Empire. There were certain civil rights for Romans that weren't offered to people not considered Romans. So was Jesus considered a Roman? If he wasn't would he have had guards? Would that have been a right perhaps? For example the Romans considered crucifixion to be the worst way to die. No Roman could ever be crucified. I'm not sure if that included issues like treason though.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Oh and one thing I was thinking about from my Humanities class studying about the Roman Empire. There were certain civil rights for Romans that weren't offered to people not considered Romans. So was Jesus considered a Roman? If he wasn't would he have had guards? Would that have been a right perhaps? For example the Romans considered crucifixion to be the worst way to die. No Roman could ever be crucified. I'm not sure if that included issues like treason though.
Jesus was not a Roman citizen, so no, he would not have been considered a Roman. The guards would have been though.

One thing that I would like to mention, that you've brought up, is that Pilate and the Romans would not have thought twice about killing Jesus. Jesus was considered a potential danger. He could have caused a revolt, and that was enough to kill him. Pilate and Rome for that matter, had little tolerance for insurrectionists. In addition though, they also had little tolerance for the followers of insurrectionists. So it would not be out of consideration that a guard was placed at the tomb.

Stealing the body of an insurrectionist could cause problems.
 
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