• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How Jesus Fulfills the Law and How Jesus Does Not

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Jesus, in the gospels, says he has come to fulfill the law, yet many people object, understandably, that Christians don't keep the laws. Its taken a long time for me to understand how to understand what is going on, and I want to share it. It has to do with the passage of time and cultural losses.

First let me refer to an explanation of the word 'Fulfil' as used in the gospels. It means to imitate, to be an impression of something as a was seal is the impression from a ring. Whatever the Greek Koine word seems like in dictionaries it is not used that way in the gospels, and as evidence I refer you to the tautology of Matthew's use of the word here: Which Old Testament Prophecy Fulfills Luke 24:46-47

There are many hucksters who print things like The Bible Promise Book which promotes the false idea that the gospels prove truth, miracles, God and Christ through completions of predictions. Nothing could be further from the truth! This is not how the gospels work, is not what they are for. Liars have printed such material, whether they are lying to themselves and others I can't say. They are deceivers, caught up in the making of webs to trap flies, not people seeking to make disciples for Jesus. Those who repeat them on stage and refer to them become accomplices in their falsehood whether intentionally or otherwise and bear responsibility for such slovenly work.

This idea of impressions used in the gospels when speaking about fulfilling the law or fulfilling a prophecy comes from multiple directions. First of all there are the wax seals once used on documents long ago. They were an ancient security measure for sending documents to guarantee who the sender was. Once an intricate seal on a letter was broken it was almost impossible to falsify the seal. Therefore you could receive an envelope or crate and with some sense of security know who had sent it by examining its seal and comparing it to another copy that you knew was legitimate. The idea of impressions also comes from the ancient conception of light. Light was considered to be a small copy of the real world which made an impression upon the eye, working much like a wax seal. You saw the light and therefore knew what had happened. This is what to think about when you read the word 'Fulfil' in the gospels -- not miraculous predictions followed by completions.


Disciples of Jesus are not made through devices. They join Christ out of admiration for his works or because they have been convinced inwardly through conscience. Some people can't imagine this, because they believe in convincing arguments and pummeling people about the head, boxing ears. People count heads, but God counts hearts. If the kingdom of God is like a field filled with wheat and tares, then some people are in that field not knowing what they are. It is a sad and empty lie to believe we are followers of Christ and instead to be artificers of traps, arguments with which to catch men. These are not God's traps but our own, so those we catch are caught not in Christ's name but in our own name. We become rivals with God, not God's representatives.

Returning to the idea of the impression there is a usage in part of Hebrews 1:3 which appeals to it "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." This appeals, like the word 'Fulfil' to the idea of a wax seal but more specifically to the seal of light upon one's eye. The writer implies that The Son is the seal that something is from God. He is in effect claiming that we (who are not Jews) have now received a message sealed by the God of the Jews whereas before we could only read such a message 2nd hand by way of the Jews, through their prophecies and their filters. Everything about the verse is not clear, because it is a verse in a context. The rest of the letter must be read to give it more definition and to limit its meaning, but that is a first poke at the verse meaning.

So when a gospel says Jesus has fulfilled the law what he means is that Jesus has certified its importance, verified its author, not that Jesus has ended it or has finished its use.
 

Teritos

Active Member
So when a gospel says Jesus has fulfilled the law what he means is that Jesus has certified its importance, verified its author, not that Jesus has ended it or has finished its use.
Fulfill means done. Jesus has done everything that the law requires. And so he fulfilled the law. The law is like a contract with conditions and when you have fulfilled it you are released from it.
No one has to circumcise their children anymore. Circumcision is the signature, whoever circumcises himself because he thinks it is God's commandment, binds himself to the law and has to fulfill the law.
He lost the grace of Jesus.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
So when a gospel says Jesus has fulfilled the law what he means is that Jesus has certified its importance, verified its author, not that Jesus has ended it or has finished its use.



The notion of fulfilment is an extremely complex one,42 one that could easily be distorted if there is a
unilateral insistence either on continuity or discontinuity. Christian faith recognises the fulfilment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfilment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist. In reality, in the mystery of Christ crucified and risen, fulfilment is brought about in a manner unforeseen. It includes transcendence.43 Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance; he fills them with a new reality; one can even speak in this connection of a “new creation”.44 It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.

The original task of the prophet was to help his contemporaries understand the events and the times they lived in from God's viewpoint. Accordingly, excessive insistence, characteristic of a certain apologetic, on the probative value attributable to the fulfilment of prophecy must be discarded. This insistence has contributed to harsh judgements by Christians of Jews and their reading of the Old Testament: the more reference to Christ is found in Old Testament texts, the more the incredulity of the Jews is considered inexcusable and obstinate.

'The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible'
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Jesus, in the gospels, says he has come to fulfill the law, yet many people object, understandably, that Christians don't keep the laws. Its taken a long time for me to understand how to understand what is going on, and I want to share it. It has to do with the passage of time and cultural losses.

First let me refer to an explanation of the word 'Fulfil' as used in the gospels. It means to imitate, to be an impression of something as a was seal is the impression from a ring. Whatever the Greek Koine word seems like in dictionaries it is not used that way in the gospels, and as evidence I refer you to the tautology of Matthew's use of the word here: Which Old Testament Prophecy Fulfills Luke 24:46-47

There are many hucksters who print things like The Bible Promise Book which promotes the false idea that the gospels prove truth, miracles, God and Christ through completions of predictions. Nothing could be further from the truth! This is not how the gospels work, is not what they are for. Liars have printed such material, whether they are lying to themselves and others I can't say. They are deceivers, caught up in the making of webs to trap flies, not people seeking to make disciples for Jesus. Those who repeat them on stage and refer to them become accomplices in their falsehood whether intentionally or otherwise and bear responsibility for such slovenly work.

This idea of impressions used in the gospels when speaking about fulfilling the law or fulfilling a prophecy comes from multiple directions. First of all there are the wax seals once used on documents long ago. They were an ancient security measure for sending documents to guarantee who the sender was. Once an intricate seal on a letter was broken it was almost impossible to falsify the seal. Therefore you could receive an envelope or crate and with some sense of security know who had sent it by examining its seal and comparing it to another copy that you knew was legitimate. The idea of impressions also comes from the ancient conception of light. Light was considered to be a small copy of the real world which made an impression upon the eye, working much like a wax seal. You saw the light and therefore knew what had happened. This is what to think about when you read the word 'Fulfil' in the gospels -- not miraculous predictions followed by completions.


Disciples of Jesus are not made through devices. They join Christ out of admiration for his works or because they have been convinced inwardly through conscience. Some people can't imagine this, because they believe in convincing arguments and pummeling people about the head, boxing ears. People count heads, but God counts hearts. If the kingdom of God is like a field filled with wheat and tares, then some people are in that field not knowing what they are. It is a sad and empty lie to believe we are followers of Christ and instead to be artificers of traps, arguments with which to catch men. These are not God's traps but our own, so those we catch are caught not in Christ's name but in our own name. We become rivals with God, not God's representatives.

Returning to the idea of the impression there is a usage in part of Hebrews 1:3 which appeals to it "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." This appeals, like the word 'Fulfil' to the idea of a wax seal but more specifically to the seal of light upon one's eye. The writer implies that The Son is the seal that something is from God. He is in effect claiming that we (who are not Jews) have now received a message sealed by the God of the Jews whereas before we could only read such a message 2nd hand by way of the Jews, through their prophecies and their filters. Everything about the verse is not clear, because it is a verse in a context. The rest of the letter must be read to give it more definition and to limit its meaning, but that is a first poke at the verse meaning.

So when a gospel says Jesus has fulfilled the law what he means is that Jesus has certified its importance, verified its author, not that Jesus has ended it or has finished its use.

Jesus was the fulfilment of the intent of the Law which preserved the faith of the Israelites until the arrival of the Son as he was the answer to Abrahams blind faith to begin with. With Jesus we were to start out new, fresh like trusting children.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
The notion of fulfilment is an extremely complex one,42 one that could easily be distorted if there is a
unilateral insistence either on continuity or discontinuity. Christian faith recognises the fulfilment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfilment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist. In reality, in the mystery of Christ crucified and risen, fulfilment is brought about in a manner unforeseen. It includes transcendence.43 Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance; he fills them with a new reality; one can even speak in this connection of a “new creation”.44 It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.

The original task of the prophet was to help his contemporaries understand the events and the times they lived in from God's viewpoint. Accordingly, excessive insistence, characteristic of a certain apologetic, on the probative value attributable to the fulfilment of prophecy must be discarded. This insistence has contributed to harsh judgements by Christians of Jews and their reading of the Old Testament: the more reference to Christ is found in Old Testament texts, the more the incredulity of the Jews is considered inexcusable and obstinate.

'The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible'
I think you and I are mostly in agreement though I could not have worded it like you just did. The new reality or new creation is something I'm seeing in the NT. It is described as reality (ways of God) which is becoming true while an old reality (ways of the world) is becoming false. If it were a special effect it might look like one image phasing into a different one. People step into it, leaving behind the old reality. I think that the continuity only exists in belief in the finished work, at the end; so there is a time discrepancy for those who aren't believers and cannot see the finished work. I absolutely agree one must not view prophecy as photographic anticipations of future events, though this has been sold to me several times in different schemes by various actors.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Fulfill means done. Jesus has done everything that the law requires. And so he fulfilled the law. The law is like a contract with conditions and when you have fulfilled it you are released from it.
No one has to circumcise their children anymore. Circumcision is the signature, whoever circumcises himself because he thinks it is God's commandment, binds himself to the law and has to fulfill the law.
He lost the grace of Jesus.
All that stuff you've just said is merely disagreement, not a reply nor thinking of any kind. Its disrespectful towards others, towards me and a waste of my time.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Jesus was the fulfilment of the intent of the Law which preserved the faith of the Israelites until the arrival of the Son as he was the answer to Abrahams blind faith to begin with. With Jesus we were to start out new, fresh like trusting children.
You're welcome to support your disagreements. If you want to look something up but don't remember where it is I recommend blueletterbible.com. Its terrific for quotes, cross references, multiple bibles...great for those who want to put in an effort.
 

MatthewA

Active Member
Would like to mention what fulfil means according to the greek understanding.

Strong's Concordance
pléroó: to make full, to complete
Original Word: πληρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pléroó
Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro'-o)
Definition: to make full, to complete
Usage: I fill, fulfill, complete.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4137 plēróō (from plērēs, "be full," see 4130 /plḗthō) – properly, fill to individual capacity, i.e. to the extent it is "meet" (appropriate). See 4130 (plēthō).

I believe that Jesus Christ was an someone who was fully capable of meet the requirements of the Law of Moses which was given to the Jews exclusively. In Matthew 5:17.

Some disagree, but if Jesus Christ said that was what He had come to do which was fulfil the prophecy of the prophets and the law he was able to do it.

Here is what the law means in accordance to that scripture.

Strong's Concordance
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Definition: that which is assigned, usage, law

Usage: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.
HELPS Word-studies

3551
nómoslaw. 3551 (nómos) is used of: a) the Law (Scripture), with emphasis on the first five books of Scripture; or b) any system of religious thinking (theology), especially when nomos occurs without the Greek definite article.

3551 /nómos ("law") then can refer to "the Law," or "law" as a general principle (or both simultaneously). The particular sense(s) of 3551 (nómos) is determined by the context.

Here is what the Prophets word means:

Strong's Concordance
prophétés: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)

Original Word: προφήτης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: prophétés
Phonetic Spelling: (prof-ay'-tace)
Definition: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)
Usage: a prophet, poet; a person gifted at expositing divine truth.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4396 prophḗtēs (from 4253 /pró, "beforehand" and 5346 /phēmí, "elevating/asserting one idea over another, especially through the spoken-word") – properly, one who speaks forth by the inspiration of God; a prophet. See 4394 (prophēteia).

A prophet (4396 /prophḗtēs) declares the mind (message) of God, which sometimes predicts the future (foretelling) – and more commonly, speaks forth His message for a particular situation. 4396 /prophḗtēs ("a prophet") then is someone inspired by God to foretell or tell-forth (forthtell) the Word of God.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I think that the continuity only exists in belief in the finished work, at the end; so there is a time discrepancy for those who aren't believers and cannot see the finished work.

Insistence on discontinuity between both Testaments and going beyond former perspectives should not, however, lead to a one-sided spiritualisation. What has already been accomplished in Christ must yet be accomplished in us and in the world. The definitive fulfilment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. The difference is that for us the One who is to come will have the traits of the Jesus who has already come and is already present and active among us.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
You're welcome to support your disagreements. If you want to look something up but don't remember where it is I recommend blueletterbible.com. Its terrific for quotes, cross references, multiple bibles...great for those who want to put in an effort.
Yes, works well.


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You're welcome to support your disagreements. If you want to look something up but don't remember where it is I recommend blueletterbible.com. Its terrific for quotes, cross references, multiple bibles...great for those who want to put in an effort.
I might have to check that out. I usually use Biblehub, but I feel that easily gets bogged down listing many different versions of the Bible, and isn't the friendliest for users needing to move around books and chapters.
There are many hucksters who print things like The Bible Promise Book which promotes the false idea that the gospels prove truth, miracles, God and Christ through completions of predictions. Nothing could be further from the truth! This is not how the gospels work, is not what they are for. Liars have printed such material, whether they are lying to themselves and others I can't say. They are deceivers, caught up in the making of webs to trap flies, not people seeking to make disciples for Jesus. Those who repeat them on stage and refer to them become accomplices in their falsehood whether intentionally or otherwise and bear responsibility for such slovenly work.
This question of lying is an interesting one. Despite everything Jesus said, everything the Bible says, not to be of this world, to make no graven images, but many Christians a pretty bad at upholding those (I see these super worldly "NOTW" stickers on people's cars a lot here), and I agree such things aren't well thought out and just aren't based on Jesus' teachings. And it doesn't matter what object or person faith is placed in, needing such a promise book is surely the sign of a weak faith that constantly needs reminded of their faith (sort of like how they apparently need their money to remind them who they trust), or something we might expect to see in NK.
A plain reading of the Bible is terrible, and leads to many erroneous conclusions. But a "plain faith," without all the extras attached and flashy displays and obsessing over whatever passage, seems to be what works best. It seems those who avoid attaching more are giving the world less grief. They are usually the ones more concerned about Jesus message of "love thy neighbor as thyself."
The rest, I don't think they are all lying though. Without doubt some are for the money, but some are genuinely motivated by what they know and see as good. It's what many (including me) was raised with, and see them hardly any different than Chick Tracts.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Would like to mention what fulfil means according to the greek understanding.

Strong's Concordance
I like Strong's, however it is a Reformationist Concordance supporting reformationist arguments against a church. I'm not saying that church is this or that, but the scripture has been weaponized in an act of desperation. Reformation, though good has come from it, was born in mixed hate and love and in repurposing many scriptures to be political weapons. For example they went to great lengths to reinterpret Revelation to turn it into a divination device that blames the pope, but then they went and created similar systems. Understandably the reformers were desperate, but they misrepresented scripture to make their ends which means we have to deal with that now. Often Strong's is useful, but going through every usage one by one in Matthew of the word 'Fulfill' brings us the following:
[Mat 2:17-18 NIV] 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."
[Jer 31:16-18 NIV] 16 This is what the LORD says: "Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded," declares the LORD. "They will return from the land of the enemy. 17 So there is hope for your descendants," declares the LORD. "Your children will return to their own land. 18 "I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: 'You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God.

[Mat 2:16 NIV] 16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

As is plain to see, Jeremiah never predicts a specific event, and in fact Jeremiah is talking about a different specific event. He leaves nothing to be completed.

Jeremiah 31
[Mat 2:23 NIV] 23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

Nobody can find any such reference. Its an allusion to a figure that is not specifically identified, perhaps David. David offers the showbread and is not punished, but there is no prophet that says anyone else must do this, nothing to complete or fulfill.
Possibly? Isa 42:18-20; Isa 44:18; Jer 5:21; Eze 12:2

All prophet references which could remotely be connected to this are in Jeremiah and Isaiah, and they specifically apply to specific events in the past. Jeremiah is dealing with Israel in the time of Babylon. So is Isaiah. Neither prophet predicts that they will ignore Jesus. Instead each prophet predicts that they will be brought back after some suffering...not specific and leaving nothing specific to be completed.

[Mat 13:13-15 NIV] 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
[Mat 13:34-35 NIV] 34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

Though Matthew calls this a fulfillment there is, again, no prediction or anything requiring parables in scripture. Again, 'Fulfill' does not mean fulfill to Matthew.
[Mat 26:52-54 NIV] 52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
[Luk 22:36-37 NIV] 36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

All of this from Isaiah 53, which is the Suffering Servant chapter which Jews say describes Israel and some Christians say describes Jesus. At the time of Jesus this would not be considered any kind of prediction at all.

Nobody can show where the scriptures say that a messiah must be numbered with the transgressors, and yet again Matthew uses the term 'Fulfill' in a way that does not mean fulfill. So does Luke, so this brings Luke into the same usage. This is fully explainable in terms of imitation but not fulfillment. It is explainable if Jesus symbolizes Israel but is otherwise inexplicable, and I think Christians are not required to think any particular way about it. We have freedom of thought.

For those unfamiliar with Matthew or who are learning about Christianity, Isaiah is written centuries before Jesus time. It applies to the Jews' sufferings, hopes and travels first, and then Jesus imitates those sufferings, hopes and travels in his own life. Calling these 'Predictions' is disingenuous, however you will encounter preachers and missionaries doing so.
[Mat 27:5-10 NIV] 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

Firstly, the quote is not from Jeremiah as Matthew writes but from Zechariah. Same same to us, so we can look it up in Zechariah. Zechariah is written around the time of Jeremiah and deals with some of the same events, so its not much of a difference to us who writes the passage. Maybe Matthew knows something we don't, so its Ok.

So what happens in Zechariah 11 is that Zechariah is behaving like a prophet, making a fuss, causing trouble. He takes a job as a shepherd and mistreats the sheep, getting himself fired. His severance pay is 30 shekels of silver. This is not a prediction of anything and leaves nothing to be completed.
I hope that this tautology of references in Matthew is enough to show that Strong's Concordance is not enough, that 'Fulfill' means not what you have been told.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe that Jesus Christ was an someone who was fully capable of meet the requirements of the Law of Moses which was given to the Jews exclusively. In Matthew 5:17.

Some disagree, but if Jesus Christ said that was what He had come to do which was fulfil the prophecy of the prophets and the law he was able to do it.
He's Jewish, and he keeps the law theoretically though I'm no expert. I perceive that some question it, yes. Its not my dojo, so I don't know Joe.

Usage: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.
The meaning of Law in Judaism is much more broad. It is analogous to our word 'Physics' and 'Protocol' combined. Can you disobey Gravity? No you cannot. In Judaism the laws come with amazing blessings if you follow and amazing damages if you don't; so they are more like forces of nature than guidelines. So all kinds of harm come from disobeying less than the best of one's ability, poverty, injustices, loss, fewer or no children etc. These are not mere fines or jailtime.

Here is what the Prophets word means:

Strong's Concordance
prophétés: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)
Unfortunately this, too, is dreadfully bad definition or less than helpful. A prophet in Judaism gets 'Closer' to God just a little bit than most other people. They perceive injustices that others don't and try to get other people to listen to them about what they are perceiving. God is considered analogously to a very pure source of all reality, and as you get closer you begin to dissipate or burn up...something like that. The prophet suffers in different ways because of it including by their disagreements with people. 1Peter 1:10 suggests that the prophets seek truths, which suggests they do this by meditating upon the Torah or through other means. On the other hand there are prophets who lie and who work for food or money like in Micah 3:11 in which the prophets support a scheme to enslave women through bad marriages.
 
Last edited:

MatthewA

Active Member
Well you may say these things the question is though.

When Jesus Christ uses the words that He uses, did He mean them?

Also when looking into context, I believe a lot of this had to deal with the Jewish people; consider many elders, scribes, and Pharisees, whom hated Jesus because (He was someone who was not like them - He never sinned though tempted in all things), He was always about doing His Fathers Will over His own, and the Fathers will was for Him to be able to live the law perfectly, and fulfill it. Along with coming of destroying the works of the Devil: In being able to reclaim humankind underneath the bondage of sin which was when the Fall occurred in the Garden from my side of the coin looking in, which now because of what the Lord Jesus Christ had done, by fulfilling these things which the Jewish people could not hold; it allows for anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ to be seen as redeemed, because of redemptional, and forgiving power in the blood of Christ. God loved His Son, and Loved all of Humankind enough to Send His Son.

So, we can say that Jesus Christ did not fulfill the law, or the prophets ; but what then?

Jesus Christ lied about fulfilling them?

Those are some of my questions and thoughts that come to my mind, what are your thoughts about that?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Well you may say these things the question is though.

When Jesus Christ uses the words that He uses, did He mean them?

Also when looking into context, I believe a lot of this had to deal with the Jewish people; consider many elders, scribes, and Pharisees, whom hated Jesus because (He was someone who was not like them - He never sinned though tempted in all things), He was always about doing His Fathers Will over His own, and the Fathers will was for Him to be able to live the law perfectly, and fulfill it. Along with coming of destroying the works of the Devil: In being able to reclaim humankind underneath the bondage of sin which was when the Fall occurred in the Garden from my side of the coin looking in, which now because of what the Lord Jesus Christ had done, by fulfilling these things which the Jewish people could not hold; it allows for anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ to be seen as redeemed, because of redemptional, and forgiving power in the blood of Christ. God loved His Son, and Loved all of Humankind enough to Send His Son.

So, we can say that Jesus Christ did not fulfill the law, or the prophets ; but what then?

Jesus Christ lied about fulfilling them?

Those are some of my questions and thoughts that come to my mind, what are your thoughts about that?
Here is what @pearl had to say about it: "The notion of fulfilment is an extremely complex one,42 one that could easily be distorted if there is a unilateral insistence either on continuity or discontinuity. Christian faith recognises the fulfilment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfilment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist. In reality, in the mystery of Christ crucified and risen, fulfilment is brought about in a manner unforeseen. It includes transcendence." Which is approximately what I am saying.

He also says "44 It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original." with which I agree.

Both of these are I think are from a book he's quoting.
 

MatthewA

Active Member
He's Jewish, and he keeps the law theoretically though I'm no expert. I perceive that some question it, yes. Its not my dojo, so I don't know Joe.


The meaning of Law in Judaism is much more broad. It is analogous to our word 'Physics' and 'Protocol' combined. Can you disobey Gravity? No you cannot. In Judaism the laws come with amazing blessings if you follow and amazing damages if you don't; so they are more like forces of nature than guidelines. So all kinds of harm come from disobeying less than the best of one's ability, poverty, injustices, loss, fewer or no children etc. These are not mere fines or jailtime.


Unfortunately this, too, is dreadfully bad definition or less than helpful. A prophet in Judaism gets 'Closer' to God just a little bit than most other people. They perceive injustices that others don't and try to get other people to listen to them about what they are perceiving. God is considered analogously to a very pure source of all reality, and as you get closer you begin to dissipate or burn up...something like that. The prophet suffers in different ways because of it including by their disagreements with people. 1Peter 1:10 suggests that the prophets seek truths, which suggests they do this by meditating upon the Torah or through other means. On the other hand there are prophets who lie and who work for food or money like in Micah 3:11 in which the prophets support a scheme to enslave women through bad marriages.

A person from a church gave me a Strong's Concordance; I could use the physical book and see what they say about the words; and rather than the internet itself.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the way the see things and may also try to direct else were than to what is being said and not answer the question of : If Jesus Christ was telling the truth speaking about fulfilment or not.

People have and can believe what they want that does not bother me. My objective is to question and ponder.

We have our subjective opinions of what it means to fulfilment, but what did it mean to Jesus Christ?

Was it something He came do? Or did He lie? Was Jesus Christ really a liar about the things He said? Because if He did not fulfil, then I shouldn't follow Christ Jesus and should go back to the Law of Moses and try to make myself perfect before God which is not going to happen.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Both of these are I think are from a book he's quoting.

Its actually an official document of the Catholic Church;
'The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible'

It is the product of the Church's body of scholars know as the Pontifical Biblical Commission and presents, in this case, the interpretation of Hebrew Scripture as it relates to the Christian Bible.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Jesus, in the gospels, says he has come to fulfill the law, yet many people object, understandably, that Christians don't keep the laws. Its taken a long time for me to understand how to understand what is going on, and I want to share it. It has to do with the passage of time and cultural losses.

First let me refer to an explanation of the word 'Fulfil' as used in the gospels. It means to imitate, to be an impression of something as a was seal is the impression from a ring. Whatever the Greek Koine word seems like in dictionaries it is not used that way in the gospels, and as evidence I refer you to the tautology of Matthew's use of the word here: Which Old Testament Prophecy Fulfills Luke 24:46-47

There are many hucksters who print things like The Bible Promise Book which promotes the false idea that the gospels prove truth, miracles, God and Christ through completions of predictions. Nothing could be further from the truth! This is not how the gospels work, is not what they are for. Liars have printed such material, whether they are lying to themselves and others I can't say. They are deceivers, caught up in the making of webs to trap flies, not people seeking to make disciples for Jesus. Those who repeat them on stage and refer to them become accomplices in their falsehood whether intentionally or otherwise and bear responsibility for such slovenly work.

This idea of impressions used in the gospels when speaking about fulfilling the law or fulfilling a prophecy comes from multiple directions. First of all there are the wax seals once used on documents long ago. They were an ancient security measure for sending documents to guarantee who the sender was. Once an intricate seal on a letter was broken it was almost impossible to falsify the seal. Therefore you could receive an envelope or crate and with some sense of security know who had sent it by examining its seal and comparing it to another copy that you knew was legitimate. The idea of impressions also comes from the ancient conception of light. Light was considered to be a small copy of the real world which made an impression upon the eye, working much like a wax seal. You saw the light and therefore knew what had happened. This is what to think about when you read the word 'Fulfil' in the gospels -- not miraculous predictions followed by completions.


Disciples of Jesus are not made through devices. They join Christ out of admiration for his works or because they have been convinced inwardly through conscience. Some people can't imagine this, because they believe in convincing arguments and pummeling people about the head, boxing ears. People count heads, but God counts hearts. If the kingdom of God is like a field filled with wheat and tares, then some people are in that field not knowing what they are. It is a sad and empty lie to believe we are followers of Christ and instead to be artificers of traps, arguments with which to catch men. These are not God's traps but our own, so those we catch are caught not in Christ's name but in our own name. We become rivals with God, not God's representatives.

Returning to the idea of the impression there is a usage in part of Hebrews 1:3 which appeals to it "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." This appeals, like the word 'Fulfil' to the idea of a wax seal but more specifically to the seal of light upon one's eye. The writer implies that The Son is the seal that something is from God. He is in effect claiming that we (who are not Jews) have now received a message sealed by the God of the Jews whereas before we could only read such a message 2nd hand by way of the Jews, through their prophecies and their filters. Everything about the verse is not clear, because it is a verse in a context. The rest of the letter must be read to give it more definition and to limit its meaning, but that is a first poke at the verse meaning.

So when a gospel says Jesus has fulfilled the law what he means is that Jesus has certified its importance, verified its author, not that Jesus has ended it or has finished its use.
No saved person ( Christian ) is under the law .
Romans 6:14

“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
Col 2
0And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11¶In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
If Jesus Christ was telling the truth speaking about fulfilment or not.
It is Matthew and the gospel authors who use it mostly. Jesus uses it similarly just before his baptism when John protests that Jesus is the greater and so ought to be baptizing him. It is to 'Fulfill all righteousness' Jesus objects back. (Matthew 3:15) The meaning of the passage is lost unless we accept fulfillment is not the completion of a prediction but the impression of something else or imitation or the seal of something. In other words the lesser must baptize the greater or it will be unacceptable. It is just like the moment when Jesus washes the feet of his disciples. They object, but he says unless they allow him to do it then they have no part in him. The significance is that they become his masters though he is the greater.

A person from a church gave me a Strong's Concordance; I could use the physical book and see what they say about the words; and rather than the internet itself.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the way the see things and may also try to direct else were than to what is being said and not answer the question of : If Jesus Christ was telling the truth speaking about fulfilment or not.

People have and can believe what they want that does not bother me. My objective is to question and ponder.

We have our subjective opinions of what it means to fulfilment, but what did it mean to Jesus Christ?

Was it something He came do? Or did He lie? Was Jesus Christ really a liar about the things He said? Because if He did not fulfil, then I shouldn't follow Christ Jesus and should go back to the Law of Moses and try to make myself perfect before God which is not going to happen.
In general we aren't pitting Jesus versus truth. We are pitting the word fulfillment against its usage, testing it, basically doing a word study.
 
Top