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How is Muslim Immigration To Sweden Working Out?

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I doubt it, but I don't expect to convince you. There is only so much power in my hands.

And for the record, I do not hate Muslims. I hate that they suffer such a doctrine and end up protecting it so often. But at the end of the day I was lucky not to be raised as such. It is no personal merit of mine, just luck.

That is something that I must stress, because actually hating Muslims (as opposed to mistrusting them, which is understandable) would be a very serious, destructive mistake.
So you claim you don't hate them, but you don't trust them and pity them. So you're just a bigot. It's like having a racist for a mod.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The simple fact is that Sweden has been a mono-culture for a long time. Another fact is that a certain percentage of immigrants are causing a problem.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
True. My young Muslim neighbours, one from Dubai and one from Iran, told me that they and all their peers want nothing to do with Islam.
The 18 year old from Dubai said “Islam is for old people” and the late twenties Iranian told me that maybe 75% of Iranians feel that they are only Muslim because they are looking down the barrel of a gun. They despise theocracy.
And let's not forget that the problem is pan-religious with Buddhists, for example, attacking peaceful Muslims.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
And let's not forget that the problem is pan-religious with Buddhists, for example, attacking peaceful Muslims.

Let's not forget that all creeds are not equal, and that the history of Islaam is not so bloody out of bad luck alone, either.

For that matter, bad press is a card that is invoked so often by Islaam that I have to wonder if it can not be valid once for Buddhists.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So you claim you don't hate them,

Indeed I do.

Criticism brings a heavy burden with it. As you apparently have to learn yet:
but you don't trust them and pity them. So you're just a bigot. It's like having a racist for a mod.

See? You are insulting and defaming me just because. That is disgusting and you seem not to even realize that.

Do you acknowledge that you are effectively forbidding me the right to have an opinion on the validity and merits of Islaam as an attempt at being a religion?

Is that a right that I am denied specifically? Can anyone make such a judgement? Is Islaam exempt from criticism while other creeds are not?

Where do you draw the line?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The simple fact is that Sweden has been a mono-culture for a long time. Another fact is that a certain percentage of immigrants are causing a problem.
Immigration is, by definition, a pressure for cultural change. And in most cases it creates demands for jobs, linguistic integration, etc.

However, cultures are not inherently harmonious to begin with, and national boundaries are little more than glorified fictions in any case.

Managing the inner demands of any culture is always a difficult challenge, that demands a lot of mutual cooperation and good will. Immigration is an attractive scapegoat, even when it is actually beneficial.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Immigration is, by definition, a pressure for cultural change.

Nope. My parents were immigrants so I know that culture was not involved.

Managing the inner demands of any culture is always a difficult challenge, that demands a lot of mutual cooperation and good will. Immigration is an attractive scapegoat, even when it is actually beneficial.

True.

I noted this story The 30m Muslims living in Europe and America are gradually becoming integrated
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I often think Trump is there to accelerate the process of the general population losing all faith in community norms.
It looks like a classic Milgram and Zimbardo setup on an international scale. Maybe my tinfoil hat is too tight and squeezing my brain.
My previous tinfoil hat was so tight I began to think that the corporate elites are using Islam as shock troopers to demolish secular democracy.

I really gotta get me another hat.
I have little notion of how intentional the situation was, or who or how could or tried to create or avoid it, but Trump and similar people (such as our own Bolsonaro and UK's Boris Johnson) seem to be to a significant extent the expression of what is often called "rejection of traditional politics".

Unfortunately, in the current times that turns out to be an euphemism to a lack of respect for our own democratic institutions and an often ill-assumed desire for fascism.

I am not sure that it could be avoided. Many of the tensions that motivate that turn for uncivility and extremism have complex causes that are largely a result of demographic growth and increasing complexity of so many aspects of modern living.

In a sense, our societies are choosing to collapse under their own political weight.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
What do you mean by that?

I know why they emigrated, it was persecution that motivated them, and how they lived. They did not seek to impose their culture nor did they seek to adopt American culture uncritically. They were classic "hyphenated" Americans just as is true for many others.
 

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
I have little notion of how intentional the situation was, or who or how could or tried to create or avoid it, but Trump and similar people (such as our own Bolsonaro and UK's Boris Johnson) seem to be to a significant extent the expression of what is often called "rejection of traditional politics".

Unfortunately, in the current times that turns out to be an euphemism to a lack of respect for our own democratic institutions and an often ill-assumed desire for fascism.

I am not sure that it could be avoided. Many of the tensions that motivate that turn for uncivility and extremism have complex causes that are largely a result of demographic growth and increasing complexity of so many aspects of modern living.

In a sense, our societies are choosing to collapse under their own political weight.

Perhaps the situation is beyond ‘control’.
Chaotic in the sense of chaos theory. The behaviour generated by many interacting simple systems becomes almost impossible to comprehend, much less plan or control.
But the human mind wants clear cut causality, and will invent it.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Indeed I do.

Criticism brings a heavy burden with it. As you apparently have to learn yet:


See? You are insulting and defaming me just because. That is disgusting and you seem not to even realize that.

Do you acknowledge that you are effectively forbidding me the right to have an opinion on the validity and merits of Islaam as an attempt at being a religion?

Is that a right that I am denied specifically? Can anyone make such a judgement? Is Islaam exempt from criticism while other creeds are not?

Where do you draw the line?
Not liking a religion and criticizing it is one thing. I do that all the time with various Christian sects. But when you're looking down on someone or viewing them as a threat merely for their religion alone and nothing else? That's bigotry on the same level as racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. There's literally nothing all almost 2 billion Muslims have in common besides a religious label and it's totally irrational make assumptions about their character simply because of a religious label, which says nothing about their character. You're not judging them as individuals or even giving them a chance. And I've seen you post some very insulting things about Islam, such as saying it's a mental illness. I'm shocked that you, as a staff member, feel that that's in any way appropriate, given the rules on this site and the forum mission.
 

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
Criticism brings a heavy burden with it.

You got that right. That’s why most of my Muslim neighbours moved here. Try criticising Islam in Iran.

We get along very well.

This thread, re the OP, is about a cultural clash which is having some lamentable outcomes.
The real villain here is bad social engineering IMO. Bad because it seems to ignore the actualities of primate behaviour.
 
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