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How is human sacrifice a Satanic practice?

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
All this O9A talk and crying about the DIR not being dark and shocking enough got me thinking about a couple of topics. First is human sacrifice.

There's been plenty of debate in history as to if Satanism should condone human sacrifice. While I agree that groups like CoS and ToS only speak against it to keep the public happy an their ratings up, I disagree with the O9A that it is adversarial or any such thing. I understand the philosophy of practicing illegal activities and adversarial energy, but human sacrifice is not adversarial. The energies forming our current world revolve around human and self sacrifice. If a "mundane" were sacrificed by a Satanic order then you've essentially martyred them and strengthen the mainstream cause. Which is more important - illegal acts or adversarial ones?

It's interesting that both sides create contradictions about this. ToS - for example - cares about the image. There's no coddling of those without the black flame, they worship a Prince of Darkness archetype. Start condoning human sacrifice and congregation size - aka income - will drop. Meanwhile the O9A strengthens the christian cause by martyring people in the name of Satan.

Interesting to me.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Aren't illegal acts by nature intrinsically adversarial? I suppose I'm not quite seeing the distinction you're attempting to make here.

As an aside, anything certain groups regard as sufficiently taboo will get the label "satanic" slapped on them, regardless of whether or not it fits by the standards of those who self-identify under that label. Same thing happens with the word "witchcraft." They're both, for better or worse, all-purpose snarl words to certain groups.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Aren't illegal acts by nature intrinsically adversarial? I suppose I'm not quite seeing the distinction you're attempting to make here.

As an aside, anything certain groups regard as sufficiently taboo will get the label "satanic" slapped on them, regardless of whether or not it fits by the standards of those who self-identify under that label. Same thing happens with the word "witchcraft." They're both, for better or worse, all-purpose snarl words to certain groups.

Based on my own understanding the law is just there. It's a creation. Is knocking down a building adversarial? Further I think that doing things like specifically breaking the law still binds one to it. Rather than being adversarial I'd call it inverted.
 

kerriscott

Member
I disagree with the O9A that it is adversarial or any such thing. I understand the philosophy of practicing illegal activities and adversarial energy, but human sacrifice is not adversarial.
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, others (non-O9A folk) can and often do understand the O9A view of culling in two ways. First, that it just was and is the O9A being adversarial and heretical (and gaining notoriety at the expense of the CoS and the ToS) by openly promoting something unlawful/taboo, and thus that the O9A weren't really serious. Second, that the O9A are and were serious, and that they did and do expect those following the seven fold way who have reached the stage of 'external adept' to undertake a culling.

However, the reality is that the O9A were and are serious about culling. Thus, the raison d'être of culling, in respect of the O9A, is not that it's considered adversarial - or that it is considered unlawful - but rather that it is: (1) a necessary test of individual 'satanic' character, a character building exercise; and/or (2) a 'presencing' of acausal (dark) energies if undertaken by an O9A nexion; and/or (3) it is - because all potential opfers must be tested according to certain O9A guidelines - a removal of those who have a bad (rotten) personal character (judged according to O9A standards), and which removal may (a) personally benefit the person doing the culling, and/or (b) benefit the nexion if the culling is done by a nexion, and/or (c) aid 'the sinister dialectic, and/or (d) be akin to an act of 'natural justice'.

While I agree that groups like CoS and ToS only speak against it to keep the public happy an their ratings up
I think they are and were against it on principle. See, for example, what Aquino wrote in a letter to Anton Long which I quoted here - http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3775959-post5.html

Meanwhile the O9A strengthens the christian cause by martyring people in the name of Satan.
I'll quote again what Anton Long in a letter to Diane Vera dated 28th May 1992:

"By making certain material available – on sacrifice, for example – and by writing certain MSS dealing with that and other 'dark' topics, I and others have done two things. First, made it clear that such material is part of my tradition and that it recounts what was/is done. Second, returned to Satanism that darkness and evil which really belongs to it (at least in the novice stage).

I have no desire to give Satanism a good name – on the contrary. I wish it to be seen as I understand it to be – really dangerous and difficult."​
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, others (non-O9A folk) can and often do understand the O9A view of culling in two ways. First, that it just was and is the O9A being adversarial and heretical (and gaining notoriety at the expense of the CoS and the ToS) by openly promoting something unlawful/taboo, and thus that the O9A weren't really serious. Second, that the O9A are and were serious, and that they did and do expect those following the seven fold way who have reached the stage of 'external adept' to undertake a culling.

However, the reality is that the O9A were and are serious about culling. Thus, the raison d'être of culling, in respect of the O9A, is not that it's considered adversarial - or that it is considered unlawful - but rather that it is: (1) a necessary test of individual 'satanic' character, a character building exercise; and/or (2) a 'presencing' of acausal (dark) energies if undertaken by an O9A nexion; and/or (3) it is - because all potential opfers must be tested according to certain O9A guidelines - a removal of those who have a bad (rotten) personal character (judged according to O9A standards), and which removal may (a) personally benefit the person doing the culling, and/or (b) benefit the nexion if the culling is done by a nexion, and/or (c) aid 'the sinister dialectic, and/or (d) be akin to an act of 'natural justice'.


I think they are and were against it on principle. See, for example, what Aquino wrote in a letter to Anton Long which I quoted here - http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3775959-post5.html


I'll quote again what Anton Long in a letter to Diane Vera dated 28th May 1992:

"By making certain material available – on sacrifice, for example – and by writing certain MSS dealing with that and other 'dark' topics, I and others have done two things. First, made it clear that such material is part of my tradition and that it recounts what was/is done. Second, returned to Satanism that darkness and evil which really belongs to it (at least in the novice stage).

I have no desire to give Satanism a good name – on the contrary. I wish it to be seen as I understand it to be – really dangerous and difficult."​

It's things like this that - for some reason - make me respect the O9A vastly more than groups like ToS even on subjects where I disagree.
 
For those interested, there's a selection of vintage (mostly 1980s) texts about the matter of culling here - The Culling Texts

I found the following quotes from the linked texts to be interesting:

This culling can be done either during an occult ritual - such as The Ceremony
of Recalling {3} - or, as several texts make clear, by practical means such as
assassination or staged 'accidents'. Such a culling can also, and importantly, be
undertaken either by employing a 'proxy' who is manipulated into doing the
deed
{4} or as part of an Insight Role {5}. Thus someone undertaking an Insight
Role in law enforcement or in the armed forces would most probably have an
opportunity to undertake a culling {6}.
I have heard rumors that the ONA may use something referred to as "Sinister Cloacking." What is this exactly?

*post moderated*
 
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kerriscott

Member
I have heard rumors that the ONA may use something referred to as "Sinister Cloaking." What is this exactly?
It's one of many neglected O9A topics, with few MSS describing it in detail.

It's when an individual takes on an assumed (fake) identity in the real world, or plays a specific role - as in an Insight Role, or as in tricking/manipulating a mark - in order to gain practical experience by doing adversarial, amoral, deeds, and/or in order to use a mark as a proxy in the commission of some deed (such as a culling).

So it's basically just an Order of Nine Angles term to describe a novice doing (for esoteric reasons) what tricksters and con-artists have been doing (for personal reasons) for centuries.
 
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Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
On the question of sacrifice, that is making a sacrifice of a human being or some other living creature to some higher being that one worships in order to appease it or out of devotion? This is not my way. Even though I do believe in the literal existence of That which is known as the Prince of Darkness, who I honor and who I recognize as and have chosen to call by the Name and archetype of the Egyptian god Set, I do not worship him, at least not in the sense of bowing to statues and/or surrendering my own will. To me the Prince of Darkness is the first and most perfect embodiment of the Black Flame, which I aspire to become like, both as a human being and as a Spiritual/metaphysical Being.

I collaborate with Set, I seek His/Its knowledge and guidance, but I do not and will not bend my knee in subjugation to Set. Set does not seek or have any need for slavish servitude, but rather the company of equals. Therefore, the concept of human sacrifice in his honor is irrelevant. Furthermore, I personally have no use for it.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Here's my question: what about self preservation? It seems to me like most groups you talk to - whether it's Satanists, Setians, or Luciferians - have a heightened sense of self and self preservation. Often this is compared in contrast to the Christian conception of turning the other cheek. Committing crimes such as murder run with high risk of losing ones life / freedom for a very low reward. All this simply to act in heterodox ways which still implies one is simply as bound to society as the average "mundane" or "sheep". To me this makes heterodox religions not only in line with the status quo but willing of self sacrifice for minimal gain.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
On the question of sacrifice, that is making a sacrifice of a human being or some other living creature to some higher being that one worships in order to appease it or out of devotion? This is not my way. Even though I do believe in the literal existence of That which is known as the Prince of Darkness, who I honor and who I recognize as and have chosen to call by the Name and archetype of the Egyptian god Set, I do not worship him, at least not in the sense of bowing to statues and/or surrendering my own will. To me the Prince of Darkness is the first and most perfect embodiment of the Black Flame, which I aspire to become like, both as a human being and as a Spiritual/metaphysical Being.

I collaborate with Set, I seek His/Its knowledge and guidance, but I do not and will not bend my knee in subjugation to Set. Set does not seek or have any need for slavish servitude, but rather the company of equals. Therefore, the concept of human sacrifice in his honor is irrelevant. Furthermore, I personally have no use for it.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

It seems to me that human sacrifice in orders such as the O9A are not appeals to a deity, but rather some aspect of personal enlightenment.
 

kerriscott

Member
It seems to me that human sacrifice in orders such as the O9A are not appeals to a deity, but rather some aspect of personal enlightenment.
Yes indeed. The culling task forms only a part - at the beginning - of the O9A 'seven fold way' (7FW), and which 7FW is a decades-long individual, often practical, quest of self-discovery and wisdom.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To me, it's not particularly religiously relevant to sacrifice an animal vs a human. Thus, since it is legal to sacrifice animals for religious purposes provided they are considered animals that are not typically viewed as pets why get all complicated? A life ended is a life ended...

If I ever felt that need I could just go buy a live chicken, goat, lamb, whatever and do as I please with absolutely no worry of repercussion. O9A's approach seems unrealistic given that the last thing a proper Satanist wants is heat. People already hate us for praying to The Devil you see... And doing a lot of the other stuff like running around in the wild and whatever won't win you friends either... This makes me feel like if there were an O9A they are about as real as a bunch of kids pretending they're the Justice League.

Most people do not live in an environment where such sacrifices could take place -- forests in USA are typically preserves which means foot traffic. Our homes are in suburbia with clear views across yards and whatever and close enough together that screams will probably be heard outside. At that juncture the reality is there is a lack of one; if O9A exists it is puffing. Killing a human will be noticed more than half the time. If you're in Europe people are living even more densely together -- even less likely to succeed. Thus, my conclusion would be it doesn't happen at all.

Who decides who are "mundanes" anyway? What if you believe what the O9A does, but aren't affiliated? I guess they go to the human meat grinder too, huh? The reason O9A fails to exist is the silliness of its basic tenets. Anyone can write something on paper or on a forum, but few live by what they write.
 

kerriscott

Member
The reason O9A fails to exist is the silliness of its basic tenets

For some reason, you keep claiming that the Order of Nine Angles doesn't exist - isn't real - even though in a reply to you on another thread [ here - http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3792761-post34.html - and also here - http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3792929-post36.html ] I showed that, according to the definition of the words 'exist' and 'real' given in the most authoritative dictionary of the English language, the O9A is indeed real and does exist.

The most obvious evidence of the O9A existing is: (i) its detailed esoteric philosophy (its ontology, epistemology, ethics), and (ii) its praxises (such as the seven fold way with its roots in ancient Hellenic hermetic mysticism).

Thus, when we are talking about the O9A we are - or rather should be - talking about that particular esoteric philosophy, and those praxises, and those influenced by, or following, or interested in, either or both of those things.

Now, if you want to claim that the basic tenets of that esoteric philosophy "are silly" you're entitled to do so, although without explaining in detail why you believe its ontology, epistemology, and ethics, are "silly" when compared with other esoteric philosophies, then it's your claim which could, with some justification, be called "silly".

However, even if you could provide such a detailed, comparative, explanation - and concluded on the basis of such an explanation that its basic tenets were indeed, in your opinion, "silly" - then the O9A would still exist.

Ergo, your claim - of the O9A not existing because in your opinion it's tenets are silly - really is rather silly.

[*post moderated*]
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
*** MOD POST***

Hey guys! The staff would like to remind folks to remember Rule 6 while posting on this topic.


6. Illegal Activities
Encouragement of others to participate in any activity that is illegal under U.S. laws is prohibited. This includes the use of illegal drugs, infringement of intellectual property rights, all violent crimes, terrorism and any/all criminal activities. Mentioning of engagement in any illegal activity, such as the above or others is also prohibited. Religious allowances are not basis for exemption from moderation. Members are only allowed in some cases to mention their engagement in activities that are illegal under U.S. laws if said activities are not illegal in the member's own country/state.
 

kerriscott

Member
*** MOD POST***

Hey guys! The staff would like to remind folks to remember Rule 6 while posting on this topic.



Understood. But in my defense I was merely describing what the Order of Nine Angles have written about this very controversial subject, not inciting or encouraging anything contrary to any law (US or elsewhere).

May I therefore inquire if objectively discussing the O9A modus operandi - as one might in a criminal trial - falls within the scope of that rule?
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Understood. But in my defense I was merely describing what the Order of Nine Angles have written about this very controversial subject, not inciting or encouraging anything contrary to any law (US or elsewhere).

May I therefore inquire if objectively discussing the O9A modus operandi - as one might in a criminal trial - falls within the scope of that rule?

I guess the better question would be if you removed the socially parasitic fascism and the murder what would be so damn interesting about O9A?

Even that whole concept of running around naked in the wild is not unique -- I know several white power groups that do similar things and align religiously with ancient norse type religious concepts. Certainly, this is summarizing a great deal.

Really, I'm trying to see the value. Most religions or philosophies have a goal. If you take away "the really bad stuff" and moved to what is important O9A would just be just like a few other groups who don't have such (apparently, at first take) whacky ideology. I get the idea of breaking free of societal shackles so to speak, but most LHP-types focus on that there is nothing unique in play.
 

kerriscott

Member
I guess the better question would be if you removed the socially parasitic fascism and the murder what would be so damn interesting about O9A?
Leaving aside your pejorative, and inaccurate (in respect of O9A theory and praxises) terms "socially parasitic fascism" and "murder", among the many things that make O9A interesting are:

1. An esoteric philosophy and a praxis (the seven fold way) with roots in Hellenic hermeticism, and which ancient hermeticism pre-dates the qabalah by at least a thousand years.
2. An adversarial and heretical manifestation of satanism as something - on contrast to the CoS, ToS, etcetera - dangerous, sly, harmful, bad, destructive, disastrous, pernicious, hard, difficult, misleading, deadly, amoral, and baleful.
3. An aeonic perspective and thus (i) a supra-personal sinister strategy and perspective based on planning for a centuries ahead, and (ii) an understanding of millennial esoteric pathei-mathos.
4. Esoteric traditions and techniques - such as esoteric chant and the star game and insight roles - which have no parallel in modern occultism.
5. Practical ordeals and tests (such as physical challenges, the rite of internal adept, and the Camlad rite of the abyss) which make all other modern satanist and LHP groups seem rather tame and materialistic.
6. A Labyrinthos Mythologicus to confuse, test, and annoy, mundanes
7. An aural pagan tradition - the rounwytha way - which radically dissents from the paganism and the wicca that have become accepted paradigms of the Western occult tradition, old and new.
8. An emphasis on the sinisterly-numinous and the muliebral, in contrast to other modern occult traditions, LHP, satanist, or otherwise.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
The rounwytha way - Very interesting, this seems very similar to a text I read regarding the ancient druids, and also the author's particular beliefs regarding the original "religion" of the ancients.
 

kerriscott

Member
The rounwytha way - Very interesting
I agree - I find it one of the most interesting aspects of the O9A. If anyone is curious about this 'Rounwytha way' then there's a basic introduction here - Rounwytha

The main text is http://omega9alpha.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/rounwytha-tradition.pdf

this seems very similar to a text I read regarding the ancient druids, and also the author's particular beliefs regarding the original "religion" of the ancients.
AFAIK the O9A has never made any connection between their aural Rounwytha tradition and the Druids.

All the O9A state is that the Rounwytha tradition is an aural 'folk tradition' in a few parts of rural south Shropshire and Herefordshire and those parts of Wales that adjoin those two English counties. They also state the numbers involved were never large; only a dozen or so people at most.
 
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