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Featured How is God's prophesy of making Jews jealous by going to the gentiles played out

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by whirlingmerc, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    In the end of Moses life he has a song where God prophesies about Israel falling away
    and God spiring up jealousy by going to the gentiles

    Isaiah and the Song of Moses start the same way and both speak of a rebellious Israel and Isaiah
    appears to build on the same. Moses spoke of a future falling away. Isaiah speaks as though it is here.

    So what's with all this God yelling to a people who are not my people who aren't even seeking him 'here I am! here I am! In a Christian view the people is the believing church, predominantly gentiles.

    'A People yet to be Created' in the Psalms - Three songs pointing…
     
    #1 whirlingmerc, Apr 20, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Christian scriptures were highly affected by Hellenization, which tends to use either/or dichotomies, so literalistic interpretations of the scriptures tend to create false impressions at times. One sees this especially used by Paul since he was Greek educated. But even such dualisms can be found in the Jewish scriptures as well.

    IOW, if we read the scriptures as if they're literal and objective history, we're making a huge mistake.
     
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  3. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    And what might the song of Moses mean when God prophesies to make Jews jealous by going to the gentiles?

    I think it's a fulfillment of an even greater promise to bless all nations through a descendent of Abraham, the Messiah

    I would however love to hear a Jewish view on these scriptures in Deuteronomy, Isaiah and Psalms

    'A People yet to be Created' in the Psalms - Three songs pointing…
     
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Hosea also brings this up in Hosea 1:9-10.

    The point of this is really two-fold. In the new Covenant God will do two things; cut off unregenerate old Israel and accept in gentiles who are regenerate.

    What this means is that old Israel is "not my people" because God cut them off; but both Jews and gentiles who are regenerate (through the new birth experience) will be called "my people" who previously were "not my people".

    Jews are not my people because God cut them off and they disregarded His Covenant and gentiles are not His people because they never had a Covenant to begin with. Why were Jews cut off? Because they broke His Covenant and because they that are still in the flesh cannot please God at all. God must have a spiritual nation.

    So, in the new Covenant you have a spiritual nation that is comprised of Jews and gentiles. Unfortunately for old Israel; God no longer accepts a physical unregenerate nation. All, both Jews and gentiles must be born again of the water and the Spirit to please God. (John 3:3-5) Because God desires a nation that will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Not in oldness of the written rituals of the Mosaic Law. (John 4:21-24, Romans 7:6)

    So both Jews and gentiles are now one in this spiritual nation Israel. The "nation" that God makes the Jews jealous with is not a physical nation. It is a spiritual nation. This is why it's called a "foolish" nation. (Deuteronomy 32:21) Because according to the understanding of this world; a "spiritual" nation doesn't make sense. The world only understands physical, tangible nations like the English or the Dutch or whatever. If you tell a worldly person you are part of a spiritual nation that doesn't have any land on earth; but is waiting for a city made by God (Hebrews 11:10) they will just role their eyes and think you're a nutter.

    So God makes the Jews(the ones that are not regenerate) jealous with a "foolish" nation. But, He does so on purpose in order to goad them into repentance. (Romans 11:11-12)
     
  5. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Yes Hosea 1:9-10 is astonishing several ways. Israel is portrayed as an unfaithful wife yet shown grace and the gentiles with even more problems are shown grace as well

    I find it remarkable that the first convert to the holy land was Rahab the harlot and the first minor prophet Hosea concerns his unfaithful wife. It is astonishing grace.

    Hope is always held out to Israel in the gospel
     
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  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    There is nothing found in the Tanakh that directly points to Jesus, plus interpretations vary.

    The prophetic books are brutal in the condemnation of atrocities and failures of faith, and often blanket statements of such are made. However, it's also clear that these blanket condemnations are not meant to be taken literally or there would be no hope for change.

    And we seen an example of this being played out with the narrative on Barabbas, for example, whereas "the Jews" say to crucify Jesus in three of the four gospels, and yet the other gospel says "some of the Jews". It's not so much that the other three are in error but more that one should consider the nature of how people spoke within that culture and that time period.

    Scripture must be read as being subjective, not objective, or false impressions can all too easily result, and these false impressions have resulted in much harm being done to the Jewish communities over the centuries, for example.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Hosea makes himself perfectly clear that he's talking about Israel.

    Hosea 11:1hen Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
    Hosea was a prophet who lived and prophesied just before the destruction of Israel in 722 BC.
     
  8. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I agree that 'the Jews' can mean many things in the New Testament and blanket interpretation should not be made

    But what of Moses Song literally his last where God will go to the gentiles to make Jews jealous?
     
  9. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    And.... Hosea also proposed about God making a people form those who were no people... aka the gentiles

    Hosea and His Family, A Portrait of Grace
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It certainly wasn't the only time Israel was threatened by God, and yet God said that He would not abandon nor forsake them, along with the promise of individual judgment. IOW, you and I are to be judged on what you and I believe and do, not which building we walk into on a weekend.
     
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Of course he's talking about Israel. Did you read my post? But, ultimately the scriptures are spiritual and God is a Spirit (as Jesus said) and desires a spiritual nation. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:8) Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

    So ultimately the Israel of God will be a spiritual nation. Just as there are two Jerusalems. The physical one and the one made by God Himself. There are two Israels.
     
  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Threat is not the best word. Prophesy would be. It was foretold and repeated by Isaiah and Hosea

    and carried out in Jesus
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I guess you have to invent new meanings in every scripture.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Neither Isaiah nor Hosea dealt directly with Jesus, and the rest is a matter of interpretation. The Isaiah narratives dealt with Jews during the Babylonian captivity and the eventually remnant that would eventually return to eretz Israel.

    Gotta cut this short...
     
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  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    God shows me the deeper meanings. God makes it obvious.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Fundamentalists always claim special insight.. The Taliban and ISIS make the same claim re: Islam.
     
  17. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Not qualified to be part of this discussion, though it is interesting.
     
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  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You just need to connect the dots. Let the Bible interpret itself.

    Everyone makes claims but not everyone can have the truth. Because there is only one truth.

    This is why God wants people to seek Him and Seek His face. Then they won't be lost. Spiritually speaking we are all likened to sheep and Jesus saw the people as not having a shepherd. And the flock is scattered on the hills. Jesus is the good Shepherd and if you want the truth then you stay close to the Shepherd and that way you won't be lost on the hills and so the wolf won't catch you.

    So if you're close to the Shepherd then you don't need to worry about what people claim is true. You only need to worry about what the Shepherd tells you is true. As it is written, "thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies" So, Jesus gives the true manna and there is nothing satan can do about it.
     
  19. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    It's talking about the Assyrians.
    Compare from YLT:

    Deut. 32:21 "They have made Me zealous by 'no-god,' They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by 'no-people,' By a foolish nation I make them angry."
    Isa. 23:13 "Lo, the land of the Chaldeans -- this people was not, Asshur founded it for the Ziim, They raised its watch-towers, They lifted up her palaces, -- He hath appointed her for a ruin!"

    And that makes sense, since the First Temple period was when we were immersed in idolatry and it was the Assyrians/Bablonians who destroyed us.
     
  20. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    My salvation will reach to the ends of the earth? ( such as in Psalm 22 or Isaiah 49:6)
    sounds bigger

    It really involves the promise to Abraham to bless people from every family on earth and that would be far broader than just Israel as I read it.
     
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