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Featured HOW is God "Eternal"?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Etritonakin, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Many who consider the word "ETERNAL" in reference to God believe it applies not only to existence, but existence in a complex, self-aware state.... "I have always been here -I have always looked out from behind these eyes" as someone once wrote.

    This would mean that God could not have been the initiator of himself. He would simply have been.

    The best scientific explanation thus far for why anything at all exists is.... "It just was". However, "It" is seen to be something which changes and develops.

    If God is essentially composed of everything which exists -if God is that is -and developed from simplicity to the point of being able to state "I AM THAT AM" -the beginning and end -that which was, is and is to come -God would be no less eternal.

    Do we not say of ourselves "I was" when referring to a point before we were able to say "I am"?

    If that is the case, God's self-realization and mastery of his own nature ("everything" becoming self-aware and master of its destiny) would essentially be an understanding of -and mastery of -evolution in its broadest sense.

    Why would God not then employ that idea in creating? Would it even have been possible to ignore that basic aspect of his own nature? Creation and evolution are two different aspects of the same overall reality. The only possible question would be which was required at any point.
    Would not any thing we discovered to be true about reality be indicative of God's nature?

    Rom 1:19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
     
    #1 Etritonakin, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
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  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    There are more kinds of beetles than of any other life form.

    From this we rightly infer that god is inordinately fond of beetles.
     
  3. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    J.B. Haldane
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    To paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould, ours has alway been a Planet of the Bacteria.
     
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  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    when energy is thought of as a force, we know it is regenerative thing. love is a regenerative force. first a thing that is recognized by it's action, verb, and then as a thing we name, or label.
     
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  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    So God is what we are, known by coming to know ourselves and the universe around us? Works for me but I'm not sure that is how Paul meant it.
     
  7. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    Remove the dissection of our discriminating senses and you are left with no "thing" including time.
     
  8. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    HOW is God "Eternal"?

    In exactly the same way the soul is eternal
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is important to note that “I AM” was never a name that God gave himself. To state his existence is pointless if he has always been. I believe that finite humans have difficulty processing the idea of infinity. The Creator is not an entity that can be described by the limits of human science, nor understood in human thinking.

    When God described himself to Moses in Exodus 3:13-15, in the Tanah it reads.....

    “And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

    14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

    15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:”


    The Lord God is יְהֹוָ֞ה (Yahweh, Jehovah)
    His name never was “I AM”.....it is “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE” ....יְהֹוָ֞ה was a name that meant that the Creator will “BE” whatever he needs to be in order to accomplish his will. He will respond to the behaviour of his intelligent creation. That means that we determine our own future. He will not interfere with our choices, but provides all the guidance we need to make wise decisions and to qualify for life in the world he purposed from the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11)

    An eternal being has no beginning or end, yet at some point God made a decision to become a Creator. It was not out of loneliness or a desire for company, but more so, I believe, a desire to share life with other beings.....to share his most dominant quality of love.

    For fallen humans to assume that they can understand this incredible Being, is foolish. All we need to know about him is recorded for our benefit in his only communication with us....the Bible. Misinterpretation of that book has been a problem for a very long time, but from God’s perspective, the fact is, that he knows us and has observed us since our entry into this world. As free willed beings, we have been making decisions about God for most of our lives. At the end of the day, only those who genuinely search for God, will find him. For those who want God to disappear...he will.

    God has a predetermined outcome for all humanity, but our free will determines our place in it.......or out of it.
    That is how I see it.....
     
    #9 Deeje, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  10. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    So some say.
     
  11. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    This is from the Wikipedia page for "I Am that I Am"....

    "’Ehyeh is the first person form of hayah, "to be", and owing to the peculiarities of Hebrew grammar means "I am", "I was", and "I will be"..."

    The being who said those things to Moses was actually the Word who would become Christ -not the Father directly.

    His words as Christ -and as quoted in Revelation -support the idea that it means all of those things at once.

    John 8:47 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

    Rev 1:8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Notice he (being one with the Father) says he IS the beginning AND the end -as opposed to HAVING a beginning or end in reference to something greater.
    As (he was also) Melchizedek, he is described in this way... "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life...

    I have not found it stated that the beginning that God and the Word WERE did not involve development -their development -or that they have always existed in a complex state. If you know of anything clearly showing such, please let me know!
    Regardless of what is actually true, I believe that the idea is actually an assumption of the meaning of eternal in reference to God -and one which many are fearful of considering -as if it would make God less eternal. The same is true for God's statement that he changes not -which might be taken to mean he could not have developed rather than meaning he does not waver in decision or righteous nature, etc.. The alternative seems to be an always-complex creator who did not create forever previously (what about God's logical separation of self and environment as opposed to creating one in preparation for us?). That idea might be more comfortable, but it's not very logical or apparent in what he has made.

    We certainly do not understand yet -but anything which exists may eventually be known (unless God who is able decides to hide it), and can not be inherently un-knowABLE. I also think that is the whole point of God creating the children of God -and of Christ being "the firstborn of many brethren". He WANTS us to know -because it's AWESOME! (though he only allows us to know what we are ready to know responsibly)
     
    #11 Etritonakin, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  12. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    We are made in the image of God -in their likeness -so understanding ourselves would certainly be a start.

    I do believe that is how he meant it, generally -though it was applied to something specific there.

    From what was made I have seen that some things are not possible without creativity -that creativity is not possible without some things -and that such would always apply, as that which exists now is/must be the same which has always existed -but in a different configuration.
     
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  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    It’s interesting that science has discovered a unique quality about energy: it can “neither be created, nor destroyed. Energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another.“

    The Laws of Thermodynamics | Boundless Chemistry

    Law of Conservation of Mass Energy

    Now, if it can’t be created, what does that mean? This: that it’s always been in existence.
    And God is not material; He is invisible, an Intelligent Being who has always existed, the Source behind the origin of the material universe & the laws governing it. (And ultimately behind all the forms of energy in the universe: electromagnetic, thermal, nuclear, etc.)

    Science has unwittingly answered your question.... unfortunately, they won’t acknowledge it as an answer.

    Kudos to scientists & mathematicians, for discovering the eternal nature of Jehovah God!
     
  14. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about how energy must be inherently perpetual -and why it does not necessarily seem that way from our perspective.
    I think that what we might intend to do with it requires "work" -creating of potential -but that our ability to work is part of its perpetual nature.
    Depletion of energy is a matter of inefficiency and imbalance in a particular system (within the overall system).
    Then I considered the difference between the ease of Eden compared to the difficulty encountered after being cast out -which was caused purposefully (Gen 3:cursed is the ground because of you; through toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18Both thorns and thistles it will yield you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread.)
    Creation -and maintenance thereof -may always require SOME amount of work, but I believe it could be far less than is necessary for us now.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Nice answer.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Can I ask. God made a decision to be a creator. Wouldn't god already be a creator regardless the nature and form people ascribe to it?
     
    #16 Unveiled Artist, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  17. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    may the force be with you and as you
     
  18. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    I think the only thing left to determine or "prove" is that "everything" has self-awareness and a creative mind -and that it could be done by logic and reverse-engineering, as has been done concerning the physical universe -but much of "science" is not really seeking to determine such.

    (It is interesting to consider the fact that DNA-based "evolution" is actually a sort of intelligent designer [by one definition - "able to vary its state or action in response to varying situations, varying requirements, and past experience] -but one that is not -of itself -aware that it is such. It does makes design decisions based on input for a specific purpose. It could also be said that our ability to understand and manipulate DNA-based evolution -whether it was created or not -is DNA-based evolution becoming aware of [and mastering] itself -as we are composed of it. It represents only a portion of everything on a human level, whereas God may be similar -but all-inclusive)
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    He was not a Creator until he began to create. The phrase “in the beginning” means that at some point in his eternal existence, he became a Creator. God himself had no beginning.

    As to what he was before that, perhaps we will never know....?
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    What was god's nature before he became a creator (which makes sense, language wise)?

    Re-read it. Another question instead, if we don't know what god was before, then would that mean jesus didn't know about him either?

    Wouldn't you know god's nature before he was a creator through jesus' words of the bible?
     
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