How important is truthfulness?

[TransmutingSoul]

Here is an illustration I like to use to explain Isaiah 45:7
I enter a lighted room, hit the switch, and everything is dark. I might say, "I created darkness." Not that I took something in my hands and formed darkness.

I would see you made a conscious effort to turn off light to get the darkness. As a result of turning off the light you allowed darkness in the room.

I see with God our potential is to be bathed always in the light, this can only happen to the extent we light the virtues within us. This is where we turn to the light source we find in Christ. We turn Christ off within us...we will have darkness.

"Man is in the highest degree of materiality, and at the beginning of spirituality; that is to say, he is the end of imperfection and the beginning of perfection. He is at the last degree of darkness, and at the beginning of light; that is why it has been said that the condition of man is the end of the night and the beginning of day, meaning that he is the sum of all the degrees of imperfection, and that he possesses the degrees of perfection."

Faith in God and Education can release the light within us.

I may be at peace with someone, then something happens that causes me to react against that person. It would be as though I create war or evil against that person.

I would again see you made a choice. Christ says to Love all and turn the other cheek. We must treat all that harm us with the Love we give even to our best of friends. Do not turn the darkness on.

God has acted against people in the past creating evil against them.
He has also turned back to them, creating peace.

So for Isaiah 45:7, could it be that God form the light, and darkness is created because the lack of light?

It could be said that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good and then evil is nothingness, ie, death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is the lack of the power of light. Then is it not evident that all evils returns to nonexistence, as when Good exists; evil is nonexistent?

Regards Tony

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I would have thought truthfulness to be a virtue of such fundamental importance that almost every self-respecting and half decent human would practice it. If we are truthful we have integrity and people are more likely to trust us, want to have us as friends, employ us or even marry us. If we lie or are deceitful then we betray that trust. We may hurt the one’s who are the most important to us.

Yet many of those who lead us whether in government, work, religion or parents lie all the time. It’s hard to feel confident about the future when people in charge are the wrong people. Instead of being the most able and capable people whose purpose is to serve their communities, they are really concerned about themselves and are not who they say they are. Their words and actions don’t match.

FWIW my faith teaches:

Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cited in The Advent of Divine Justice

Truthfulness, Trustworthiness and Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of my religion I take these words seriously. I don’t really care too much if people believe what I believe. I do care if they are truthful and can be trusted.

How important is truthfulness in your worldview or faith and how important do you consider the practice of telling the truth to be?

I don't tend to think of it as 'truthfulness', not because that's wrong per se, but due to some combination of how some people sometimes see/interpret 'truth' and possibly something from my day-to-day work life (business consulting).
Instead, I tend to think of it as transparency.

For me, even when growing up, being truthful was generally easy enough. I didn't worry about peer pressure too much, at least compared to most teens. But as I get older, one pleasant thing I've learnt is how freeing it is to be transparent. Rather than guarding my words a little, I simply say what I think. Generally, this works well. I am not very judgemental, and my opinions are at least considered. Moreso, too, I don't conflate my opinion with being right. It's just my opinion. And for the most part I remember to use my ears, and not just throw my 'truths' out there.

Convincing people to simply be transparent...to take what they might see as a risk and open up a little...well....it's very hard. Occasionally even frustrating.
But on reflection, I have the same issue, so I should realise how hard it is for people. I can open up very easily about what I think. Feelings though? Much trickier, at least with adults...lol

 

[Vinayaka]

You are extrapolating something from my statement to conclude something I never meant, nor believe.

I just see it as your subconscious mind shining through. You've made the same mistake far too many times for it to be something you don't mean. I do wish you'd consider your words more more before posting, but that wouldn't actually mean a change of heart, just a change of tact.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Some people set out to delibately portray themselves as something they are not for selfish reasons.

High-functioning Sociopaths and the Damage They Cause | HealthyPlace



I'm not heirachical either, and in many ways nor is my faith.

You don't think Hinduism and Buddhism have ever been heirachical and still are?



I have no problem with diversity or belief.

We could bebate endlessly about what we don't know with certainty like the the resurrection, life after death, or even the existence of God. However the virtue and positive atributes that each religion teaches is remarkably similar and of the most practical value as we life our day to day lives. Almost all religions I know of teach truthfulness.



Its prioritising and recognising what causes the most harm. Religion and belief do matter. Words can heal or harm. The foundation on which we build our lives counts. If it didn't then why engage in discssions like these?

Was thinking. The Dharma isn't hierarchical after The Buddha decided not to just teach The Dharma to men monks. He did branch out and started teaching men, women, devas, and other deities. It's purely cultural. In The Lotus Sutra The Buddha mentions all will experience and practice The Dharma without discrimination.

But, since The Dharma ones own practice and not anyone elses, most Dharmic most likely j corporate hierarchy in their worship. Americans not so much. But it's a out practice. We dont worship Guatama Sidhartha nor the suttas and sutras. Monks teach layman the suttas and practice but by no means are they a replacement of it.

With truthfullness, practices of The Dharma are specific to no rebirth. But of course, that doesn't mean truthfullness is owned by one faith. Just when defining it from a Hindu and Buddhist view it must be correct according to their faith. Same as christ resurrection.

But, socially truthfullness isn't religious.

 

[viole]

I would have thought truthfulness to be a virtue of such fundamental importance that almost every self-respecting and half decent human would practice it. If we are truthful we have integrity and people are more likely to trust us, want to have us as friends, employ us or even marry us. If we lie or are deceitful then we betray that trust. We may hurt the one’s who are the most important to us.

Yet many of those who lead us whether in government, work, religion or parents lie all the time. It’s hard to feel confident about the future when people in charge are the wrong people. Instead of being the most able and capable people whose purpose is to serve their communities, they are really concerned about themselves and are not who they say they are. Their words and actions don’t match.

FWIW my faith teaches:

Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cited in The Advent of Divine Justice

Truthfulness, Trustworthiness and Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of my religion I take these words seriously. I don’t really care too much if people believe what I believe. I do care if they are truthful and can be trusted.

How important is truthfulness in your worldview or faith and how important do you consider the practice of telling the truth to be?

I think it is true that truthfulness is important.

Ciao

- viole

 

[YmirGF]

So if someone lies to you, but you take it as the truth, then later you pass it on as the truth, is it still a lie? This I see ... a lot.

That is what I thought when reviewing the OP. Under normal conditions, I prefer my truth "straight up, no ice", but my middle sister taught me something important fairly recently. When the person you are dealing with has a threadbare grasp of reality, they may well tell you things that they believe to be true. There are too delusional to understand what they are saying makes no sense, but because they implicitly believe something to be true are they really lying? My solution was to not believe a word she said without corroborating evidence (and topic didn't matter).

So, truthfulness is desirable, under ordinary circumstances, as long as people do not assume their perceptions of reality are the truth. That's where things get a bit hairy and potentially disingenuous.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is what I thought when reviewing the OP. Under normal conditions, I prefer my truth "straight up, no ice", but my middle sister taught me something important fairly recently. When the person you are dealing with has a threadbare grasp of reality, they may well tell you things that they believe to be true. There are too delusional to understand what they are saying makes no sense, but because they implicitly believe something to be true are they really lying? My solution was to not believe a word she said without corroborating evidence (and topic didn't matter).

So, truthfulness is desirable, under ordinary circumstances, as long as people do not assume their perceptions of reality are the truth. That's where things get a bit hairy and potentially disingenuous.

Some days I think 'normal conditions' are with a threadbare grasp of reality, but then I get off RF, and go to the real world where most people are quite sane, thank goodness. I definitely prefer straight up as well.

 

[Marcion]

Truthfulness (Satya) or rather benevolent truthfulness is part of Yama and Niyama (do's and don'ts) without which sadhana (to move towards unity) is an impossibilty.

It is not wrong to tell a lie if the truth would harm people such as telling a parent directly that their child has died in a car accident or telling a nazi that the neighbour is hiding a Jew in the attic.
So the spirit should be that of benevolence out of love for or devotion to God.
Brahmacarya means to see God in everything and everyone, so harming anyone is a lack of devotion to God.
Ishvara Pranidhana means to surrender ones everything in life to Ishvara, to God, so lying for selfish reasons goes against that too.

Most of human society is presently dominated by people with Vaishyan (business) mentality and this class of people has become increasingly crude and selfish exploiting people with a different mental make-up. These people no longer follow morality, so lying and cheating for selfish reasons has become the norm for them and they are now in control of all three other classes perverting the whole of society with their Vaishyan mentality.

It is time to change the social cycle forward and oust these Vaishyans from the centre of power and create a real people's democracy controlled by morality so also by Satya or thruthfulness. Even the system of justice is now being perverted by the Vaishyans and treated as "relative truth" because moralism has become their opponent and enemy.

But there are signs of change, moralist type of people are getting more courage and realising they can overcome the dominance of these people.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I voted for the last option because I don't believe in a list of absolute dos and don'ts. As some-one has pointed out, no normal person believes that murder is justified but few will object to killing under all circumstances.

There are circumstances where to tell the truth would be unkind, there are others where it would be dangerous. On the other hand, lying is wrong more often than not, just as killing is.

Basically, virtue is a property of people, not of actions.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I would have thought truthfulness to be a virtue of such fundamental importance that almost every self-respecting and half decent human would practice it. If we are truthful we have integrity and people are more likely to trust us, want to have us as friends, employ us or even marry us. If we lie or are deceitful then we betray that trust. We may hurt the one’s who are the most important to us.

I'm accused of being too honest. I would prefer to tell the truth at all times, but truth can be ... hmmm ... "massaged" sometimes. God is fond of that "what I told you was true, from a certain POV" thing that Obi-Wan liked as well.

I am convicted that this is a dangerous road to travel.

I agree, however, it is also true that saying a moral like "if you don't eat fish on Friday, you're going to hell" is so stupid that to argue it is objective is dangerous as well. The bible is FILLED with arbitrary means of getting to hell, like wearing two kinds of fabrics, while downplaying the problems of rape and genocide (it's bad if it's happening to them, not vice versa).

there is more to be said about what is common to everybody for the benefit of life and survival.

The problem is determining which rule actually DOES benefit everyone.

So as the saying goes, everybody lies. Most people, though they claim to want the truth, don't really want the truth. Mostly they want you to tell them what they want to hear in a most convincing way.

Sheriff of Rottingham: Sire, I have news!

Prince John: And what sort of news do you have? It's not bad news, is it? You know I can't take bad news. The day started out so good. I had a good night's sleep, I had a good B.M. I don't want to hear any bad news. So, what kind of news is it?

Sheriff of Rottingham: Well, to be perfectly frank, it's bad.

Prince John: [shouts] I knew it! I knew it would be bad news. Wait, I have an idea. Maybe if you tell me the *bad* news in a *good* way, it wouldn't sound so bad.

Sheriff of Rottingham: [thinking] The bad news in a good way. Yes, I can do that. The bad news in a good way. Well, here it goes.

Tell my boss the truth, tell my wife the truth, tell the government the truth, it's only going to cause you trouble. Tell them what they want to hear and everybody's happy.

And now we supposedly have ten years, according to scientists, before the world is unfixable.

That's why I trust the Bible, since it contains the accurate knowledge of the truth that is according to godly devotion and is based on a hope of the everlasting life that God, who cannot lie, promised long ago... Titus 1:1, 2

God might not, but humans can, and they wrote the thing.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Matthew 7:24-27

Well, an earthquake would take out the house on the rock too.

In China lying has a hierarchy, saving face is an import issue in the degree of truthfulness, and very prevalent is lying to foreigners.

Even if it's as simple as your patient who doesn't speak English but you can kinda pick up that maybe they just don't want to talk to YOU. (I mean, it's happened to me, LOL).

Jesus was the truth and the foundation of Christianity.

And the depressing thing is that the apostles didn't understand him, which he notes on multiple occasions, but for some reason we have to trust their views on the subject. If there was a real Jesus, I suspect the Way died with him. As the Way is irrelevant to group identity, though, one can find the Way in other places, like the Tao, which is just another word for Way.

Almost all religions I know of teach truthfulness.

And they are as equally likely to toss that out like a piece of used up Kleenex if the situation calls for it.

Thus it may be saying, we are the light or we are the darkness. Our choice.

And then if you meet the Whills, you realize there is only the Force.

That would go well.

Qualifies you for the Supreme Court.

So we have Satan, who deceives and misleads, and covers his tracks, and we have his ministers - those who act with deception.

Please show where Satan deceives. He appears very rarely as an actual character in the bible and he doesn't lie in any of them. He's a jerk, sure, but he's not a liar. That would make everyone who accused of being one the liar. How can a religion be the Truth if it can't stop lying about something?

I see with God our potential is to be bathed always in the light, this can only happen to the extent we light the virtues within us. This is where we turn to the light source we find in Christ. We turn Christ off within us...we will have darkness.

Both light and dark can help or hurt. The sun warms you and also burns you. It illuminates as well as blinds. The darkness cools you and also freezes you. It hides but also reveals (note how you would never understand what is beyond our atmosphere if the sun were going 24/7).

Was thinking. The Dharma isn't hierarchical after The Buddha decided not to just teach The Dharma to men monks. He did branch out and started teaching men, women, devas, and other deities. It's purely cultural. In The Lotus Sutra The Buddha mentions all will experience and practice The Dharma without discrimination.

That's what I admire most out of the Dharmic religions: that EVERYONE has to deal with it. The Abrahamics are like, "Do as I say, not as I do". To me, the Way would, by necessity, have to be acknowledged by EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. Any god that says that morality is supremely important and then goes around doing things that are, by the rules, are immoral, is being a hypocritical jerk.

It is not wrong to tell a lie if the truth would harm people such as telling a parent directly that their child has died in a car accident or telling a nazi that the neighbour is hiding a Jew in the attic.

I get the Nazi part, but isn't it kinder to let the parents know their child died? The child isn't coming home, a funeral has to be set up ... why drag it out?

Most of human society is presently dominated by people with Vaishyan (business) mentality and this class of people has become increasingly crude and selfish exploiting people with a different mental make-up.

I wonder if people are increasingly selfish or we're just more "woke" about it.

 

[ajay0]

I would have thought truthfulness to be a virtue of such fundamental importance that almost every self-respecting and half decent human would practice it. If we are truthful we have integrity and people are more likely to trust us, want to have us as friends, employ us or even marry us. If we lie or are deceitful then we betray that trust. We may hurt the one’s who are the most important to us.

Yet many of those who lead us whether in government, work, religion or parents lie all the time. It’s hard to feel confident about the future when people in charge are the wrong people. Instead of being the most able and capable people whose purpose is to serve their communities, they are really concerned about themselves and are not who they say they are. Their words and actions don’t match.

FWIW my faith teaches:

Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cited in The Advent of Divine Justice

Truthfulness, Trustworthiness and Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of my religion I take these words seriously. I don’t really care too much if people believe what I believe. I do care if they are truthful and can be trusted.

How important is truthfulness in your worldview or faith and how important do you consider the practice of telling the truth to be?

There is a great saying that I subscribe to....

“Facts are relative to the knowledge man possesses at the present time. Truth however, is absolute and transcends the present, past, and future times. The relationship between Truth and Facts is that facts are not always the Truth, but Truth is always a Fact.” Atom Tate

Here it is not just opinions, but facts too that are twisted to be the absolute truth.

It is important to distinguish properly between all three of them for truthfulness to triumph.

In Hinduism, Ramakrishna has stated that adherence to truth and truthful conduct is a great austerity in itself,and in the Kali Yuga all other austerities pale before it. One who adheres to truth and truthful conduct precisely need not perform any other austerities, as per Ramakrishna.

 

[Marcion]

I get the Nazi part, but isn't it kinder to let the parents know their child died? The child isn't coming home, a funeral has to be set up ... why drag it out?

Some people die of a heart attack if they receive a sudden great mental shock, you have to prepare them slowly that a tragedy has happened in their lives.

 

[1213]

....How important is truthfulness in your worldview or faith and how important do you consider the practice of telling the truth to be?

I think it is very important.

But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Rev. 21:8

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And then if you meet the Whills, you realize there is only the Force.

May the force be with you

Regrads Tony

 

[nPeace]

I would see you made a conscious effort to turn off light to get the darkness. As a result of turning off the light you allowed darkness in the room.

I see with God our potential is to be bathed always in the light, this can only happen to the extent we light the virtues within us. This is where we turn to the light source we find in Christ. We turn Christ off within us...we will have darkness.

"Man is in the highest degree of materiality, and at the beginning of spirituality; that is to say, he is the end of imperfection and the beginning of perfection. He is at the last degree of darkness, and at the beginning of light; that is why it has been said that the condition of man is the end of the night and the beginning of day, meaning that he is the sum of all the degrees of imperfection, and that he possesses the degrees of perfection."

Faith in God and Education can release the light within us.



I would again see you made a choice. Christ says to Love all and turn the other cheek. We must treat all that harm us with the Love we give even to our best of friends. Do not turn the darkness on.



So for Isaiah 45:7, could it be that God form the light, and darkness is created because the lack of light?

It could be said that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good and then evil is nothingness, ie, death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is the lack of the power of light. Then is it not evident that all evils returns to nonexistence, as when Good exists; evil is nonexistent?

Regards Tony

Wow.

Spoiler

Very nice.

I love how nicely you applied the last illustration.
That nicely demonstrates how God turned off the light.

Great applications throughout your post.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't tend to think of it as 'truthfulness', not because that's wrong per se, but due to some combination of how some people sometimes see/interpret 'truth' and possibly something from my day-to-day work life (business consulting).
Instead, I tend to think of it as transparency.

For me, even when growing up, being truthful was generally easy enough. I didn't worry about peer pressure too much, at least compared to most teens. But as I get older, one pleasant thing I've learnt is how freeing it is to be transparent. Rather than guarding my words a little, I simply say what I think. Generally, this works well. I am not very judgemental, and my opinions are at least considered. Moreso, too, I don't conflate my opinion with being right. It's just my opinion. And for the most part I remember to use my ears, and not just throw my 'truths' out there.

Convincing people to simply be transparent...to take what they might see as a risk and open up a little...well....it's very hard. Occasionally even frustrating.
But on reflection, I have the same issue, so I should realise how hard it is for people. I can open up very easily about what I think. Feelings though? Much trickier, at least with adults...lol

I think Australians and New Zealanders are quite straight up people and being men of a similar age we're used to telling it like it is.

For both our countries religion often has negative connotations so best to avoid discussing it. In business it usually doesn't add anything to what we need to discuss. We do need values that religion teaches when its at its best. Qualities such as respect, tolerance, trustworthiness, and courtesy are indipsensible. There are of course values practiced by all regardless of faith or no faith.

On another note, you guys are going through prime ministers like tissues. What gives lol?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Was thinking. The Dharma isn't hierarchical after The Buddha decided not to just teach The Dharma to men monks. He did branch out and started teaching men, women, devas, and other deities. It's purely cultural. In The Lotus Sutra The Buddha mentions all will experience and practice The Dharma without discrimination.

But, since The Dharma ones own practice and not anyone elses, most Dharmic most likely j corporate hierarchy in their worship. Americans not so much. But it's a out practice. We dont worship Guatama Sidhartha nor the suttas and sutras. Monks teach layman the suttas and practice but by no means are they a replacement of it.

With truthfullness, practices of The Dharma are specific to no rebirth. But of course, that doesn't mean truthfullness is owned by one faith. Just when defining it from a Hindu and Buddhist view it must be correct according to their faith. Same as christ resurrection.

But, socially truthfullness isn't religious.

I was reflecting on the difference between Buddhsm as its practiced in the West compared to where its established. We've had the conversation as to how Buddhists in Asia are often theists in contrast to the West where they are atheists.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was reflecting on the difference between Buddhsm as its practiced in the West compared to where its established. We've had the conversation as to how Buddhists in Asia are often theists in contrast to the West where they are atheists.

Yeah. It depends on where you are. We have Theravada temples where monks and ones aren't atheist. The Vietnamese and Kadampa (tibetan) are not atheist. What makes them theist (polytheists) is belief in gods not a specific god out of another.

I noticed that the gods have some interaction with some practitioners. Others feel they receive blessings from The Buddha (not
Sidhartha) himself. I've never heard buddhist refer to sidhartha on the same level of worship as they do The Buddha or the focus and source of his enlightenment.

American isn't atheist. It's mostly Christian and muslim so far I know so far. Mid and southern states are highly Christian. A lot are Catholic but most protestant. The city areas say NY State where its people congested you have many faiths, temples (a lot! I want to visit one day), and just a plethora of religious houses of worship and their holidays etc. Where I live is highly Christian.

Western culture isn't atheist, it's protestant. New generation is probably changing that look given we have a bit more freedom in our laws (marriage, racism, women's rights, etc) but no where near equal.

If Westerners where atheist, our government would crack.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I would have thought truthfulness to be a virtue of such fundamental importance that almost every self-respecting and half decent human would practice it. If we are truthful we have integrity and people are more likely to trust us, want to have us as friends, employ us or even marry us. If we lie or are deceitful then we betray that trust. We may hurt the one’s who are the most important to us.

Yet many of those who lead us whether in government, work, religion or parents lie all the time. It’s hard to feel confident about the future when people in charge are the wrong people. Instead of being the most able and capable people whose purpose is to serve their communities, they are really concerned about themselves and are not who they say they are. Their words and actions don’t match.

FWIW my faith teaches:

Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cited in The Advent of Divine Justice

Truthfulness, Trustworthiness and Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of my religion I take these words seriously. I don’t really care too much if people believe what I believe. I do care if they are truthful and can be trusted.

How important is truthfulness in your worldview or faith and how important do you consider the practice of telling the truth to be?

I think that if our deeds or behaviour differ from our words then we are not being truthful. A person may make much profession in words of love and friendship but if these words are not backed up by deeds then it is all a lie and one of the main reasons people turn away from religion is because those who preach a religion do not practise it.

People need love and sincere, genuine friendship. Consider Abdul-Baha He tended to the poor, sick and lonely. If all He did was to greet people and wish them well then He would have been long forgotten for people place very little value on empty words.

We are judged not by our words but by our deeds.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Perhaps here is a better formulation.
It is important to understand the truths about the human condition and act and speak in ways that are sensitive to these truths such that suffering is minimized and wellbeing is advanced.

I can't help but think of Proverbs 15:1 and Colossians 4:6.

Grief, if we could only apply this all the time, eh?