How important is truthfulness?

[Unveiled Artist]

We could consider what is truth from a more philosophical or metaphysical perspective. That's certainly an interesting discussion. What I'm more concerned is the decline of basic values in both private and public discourse. The breakdown of civility where truth is flagrantly disregarded, facts are delibately distorted to denigrate others, and blatant self-interest becomes the new virtue.

My comment to another was in regards to myths/facts within religion. An example is the resurrection of Christ. Most Christians believe He was literally resurrected and most non-Christians believe He wasn't. Regardless of who is right, it is belief sincerely held without intent to deceive.

Hmm. The first part, I dont see humanity in that way. I cant save the world; but, I chose not to see other people as distorted in their understanding. That, for me, makes me outside this distortion. It puts a line between them (say people on the news) and myself. Abrahamic religions do this but Im not a heirachial person. More equalitarian.

The latter, I think you know my view on that. Compassion and love on the outside can be tolerated but if we dont respect that the literal resurrection of christ brings a different definition of love than symbolic, you guys can shake hands on the outside but other that, you guys are at odds.

Not all religions see that as a bad thing. The first thing about mental health is ackowledging something is wrong. Some of us are in denial but if it doesnt harm self or others, I have no issues.

 

[osgart]

What may be true for me is a lie for you. But if I am sincere and you think of me as a liar, what good does that do?

Lies have intent to harm. I doubt you would recognize something true for yourself, and have the intent to harm with that something. It may be false, but does not have the intentionality of a lie.

Words with clear meanings, actions with clear intent over time evidence themselves to others.

Lies present dangers. And a morally responsible person would not subject others to those dangers. I think the unwritten law is that if i tell someone something is true, and it is a lie though i take it as true and pass it on, then i am guilty of ignorance when i should know better. And if the lie is bought into, then the person buying into the lie should be morally responsible enough to see the dangers or they are guilty of ignorance.

People should at the very least never just assume something as true when in reality they do not know it is true.

Truth is something that can be substantiated. Verified, investigated. Proven to be without having to take someone blindly at face value before commiting to it.

Truth bears its own evidence.

 

[nPeace]

I had thought by now a Christian might remind me of Christ's words to build our house on a good foundation:

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Matthew 7:24-27

Then to hear the truth shall set you free (John 8:32) and to hear that Christ is the truth (John 14:6).

I'm not sure of what you are tying to say above, but I disagree with this statement

But the truth is beyond both our religions and affects us all.

I believe that the truth can be with us provided that it has been revealed by the source of truth.
I think as humans, there will alway exist skepticism, but I don't believe skepticism is truth, so whether one believes or doesn't believe, what is, is.
It is now left for time to reveal if truth is with us, or beyond us.
I believe what the Bible says,
John 1:14-18
14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

John 8:40
But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

John 8:46, 47
46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? 47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

John 14:6
Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 15:26
When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me;

John 16:13
However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come.

John 17:17-19
17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.

John 18:37, 38
37 So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him: “What is truth?”. . .

John mentioned truth many times, and reveals exactly how truth would enter the world from beyond.
Jesus arrived, holy spirit, arrived, the word was preserved, and now we have all we need.
Notice that Pilate too was skeptical.

I agree with what you say below.

Besides sometimes the worse liars and hypocrites are leaders of religion.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe it is prevalent that many people know the are lying within their own cultural context. In China lying has a hierarchy, saving face is an import issue in the degree of truthfulness, and very prevalent is lying to foreigners. I have experienced cultural dishonesty or lying by degree in a number of cultures of the world..

 

[Craig Sedok]

I would have thought truthfulness to be a virtue of such fundamental importance that almost every self-respecting and half decent human would practice it. If we are truthful we have integrity and people are more likely to trust us, want to have us as friends, employ us or even marry us. If we lie or are deceitful then we betray that trust. We may hurt the one’s who are the most important to us.

Yet many of those who lead us whether in government, work, religion or parents lie all the time. It’s hard to feel confident about the future when people in charge are the wrong people. Instead of being the most able and capable people whose purpose is to serve their communities, they are really concerned about themselves and are not who they say they are. Their words and actions don’t match.

FWIW my faith teaches:

Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cited in The Advent of Divine Justice

Truthfulness, Trustworthiness and Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of my religion I take these words seriously. I don’t really care too much if people believe what I believe. I do care if they are truthful and can be trusted.

How important is truthfulness in your worldview or faith and how important do you consider the practice of telling the truth to be?

The importance of truth that comes out is the greater of the balance of a rational response out the compute of the need of the being espouting the words or action.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm not sure of what you are tying to say above, but I disagree with this statement

In the main faiths, a focal point for truth is often both the Teachings of the Founder and the Personage who taught those faiths. For Christianity that was illustrated in the verses proved. Jesus was the truth and the foundation of Christianity. Jesus like truth could set the hearts and minds free. However Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and Baha'is will have the same perception to varying degrees with the One who founded their respective faiths.

I believe that the truth can be with us provided that it has been revealed by the source of truth.
I think as humans, there will alway exist skepticism, but I don't believe skepticism is truth, so whether one believes or doesn't believe, what is, is.
It is now left for time to reveal if truth is with us, or beyond us.
I believe what the Bible says

Of course for many Christians Jesus is the only truth and I accept that.

John mentioned truth many times, and reveals exactly how truth would enter the world from beyond.
Jesus arrived, holy spirit, arrived, the word was preserved, and now we have all we need.
Notice that Pilate too was skeptical.

For some Muslims and Baha'is they would see the fulfilment of John 15:26 and John 16:13 through Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

I agree with what you say below.

A problem in modern religious discourse has been confusion created as adherents from each faith have misunderstood and misinterpreted what their founder said. That has led to the to the type of narrative where the differences of faith are exagarated, fundamental contradictions are claimed and the belief that one religion has the exclusive truth claimed to the detriment to the others. Although this happens in all the religions, the result is confusion and discord when one comes to sincerely investigate the nature of truth within religious traditions. A reason I have focused on 'truth' as a religious teaching, is that almost all the religions emphasise it.

 

[Vinayaka]

In the main faiths, a focal point for truth is often both the Teachings of the Founder and the Personage who taught those faiths.

Main faiths? Those without founders are just minor? I see.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Main faiths? Those without founders are just minor? I see.

You are extrapolating something from my statement to conclude something I never meant, nor believe.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hmm. The first part, I dont see humanity in that way. I cant save the world; but, I chose not to see other people as distorted in their understanding. That, for me, makes me outside this distortion. It puts a line between them (say people on the news) and myself.

Some people set out to delibately portray themselves as something they are not for selfish reasons.

High-functioning Sociopaths and the Damage They Cause | HealthyPlace

Abrahamic religions do this but Im not a heirachial person. More equalitarian.

I'm not heirachical either, and in many ways nor is my faith.

You don't think Hinduism and Buddhism have ever been heirachical and still are?

The latter, I think you know my view on that. Compassion and love on the outside can be tolerated but if we dont respect that the literal resurrection of christ brings a different definition of love than symbolic, you guys can shake hands on the outside but other that, you guys are at odds.

I have no problem with diversity or belief.

We could bebate endlessly about what we don't know with certainty like the the resurrection, life after death, or even the existence of God. However the virtue and positive atributes that each religion teaches is remarkably similar and of the most practical value as we life our day to day lives. Almost all religions I know of teach truthfulness.

Not all religions see that as a bad thing. The first thing about mental health is ackowledging something is wrong. Some of us are in denial but if it doesnt harm self or others, I have no issues.

Its prioritising and recognising what causes the most harm. Religion and belief do matter. Words can heal or harm. The foundation on which we build our lives counts. If it didn't then why engage in discssions like these?

 

[David T]

That's almost bordering on word salad lol.

Word salad - Wikipedia

But I kinda know what you mean, you kinda know what you mean, so I kinda agree.

That's almost bordering on word salad lol.

Word salad - Wikipedia

But I kinda know what you mean, you kinda know what you mean, so I kinda agree.

thank you. Now if we were talking about front brakes on a motorcycle then that would require a whole different approach!

 

[blü 2]

Yet many of those who lead us whether in government, work, religion or parents lie all the time. It’s hard to feel confident about the future when people in charge are the wrong people. Instead of being the most able and capable people whose purpose is to serve their communities, they are really concerned about themselves and are not who they say they are. Their words and actions don’t match.

Yes, public skepticism rising throughout the First World, and it's potentially a huge problem when people lose faith in their democratic institutions.

Though it's not entirely new: as John Saxe remarked back in 1869, 'Laws, like sausages, cease to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are made.'

 

[Unveiled Artist]

hmm

Some people set out to delibately portray themselves as something they are not for selfish reasons.

True. Those same people are still growing to potray themselves better. Work in progress rather than damaged goods.

I'm not heirachical either, and in many ways nor is my faith.

Its part of religion: God 1st Messangers 2nd. Believers 3rd.

Unless you are over god, Im not sure what you say is true.

You don't think Hinduism and Buddhism have ever been heirachical and still are?

Cultural heirarchy, actually. The Dharma is practice. Thats why there are so many lineages. Most of them I know have a high level of respect in their culture. America not so much. Culture shapes Dharmic practice. Its benefitial esspecially if one choses to be a monk or nun. Laymen it realy depends on where one lives. Its not a sacred scripture book so one book and culture doesnt fit all.

Culture makes heirarchy. A lot of the suttas are for the monks. America has culture but when Americans practice The Dharma we are seen as atheistic in our approach cause culture isnt noticable unless you live here.

Almost all religions I know of teach truthfulness.

Yes. My point is the source defines the type of truthfullness they speak of. One persons lie is another persons truth? If lying is based on intent, the lie is the same (there is love) but the intent (salvation from ouside vs. enlightenment from inside) defines how that love and truthfullness is expressed. I mean, we can shake hands but if we finally decide to do the layout plan, would one side compromise the other side to adapt a plan that benefits the whole.

Not a negative thing just the way I see and speak of things.

 

[nPeace]

In the main faiths, a focal point for truth is often both the Teachings of the Founder and the Personage who taught those faiths. For Christianity that was illustrated in the verses proved. Jesus was the truth and the foundation of Christianity. Jesus like truth could set the hearts and minds free. However Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and Baha'is will have the same perception to varying degrees with the One who founded their respective faiths.



Of course for many Christians Jesus is the only truth and I accept that.



For some Muslims and Baha'is they would see the fulfilment of John 15:26 and John 16:13 through Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.



A problem in modern religious discourse has been confusion created as adherents from each faith have misunderstood and misinterpreted what their founder said. That has led to the to the type of narrative where the differences of faith are exagarated, fundamental contradictions are claimed and the belief that one religion has the exclusive truth claimed to the detriment to the others. Although this happens in all the religions, the result is confusion and discord when one comes to sincerely investigate the nature of truth within religious traditions. A reason I have focused on 'truth' as a religious teaching, is that almost all the religions emphasise it.

I understand, and agree with most of what you say.
The way I see the confusion though, is as Jesus illustrated in Matthew 13:24-30
I believe, as the Bible says, there is an enemy of God, who is sowing the confusion, and there are of course some wicked men who offer themselves to do the will of that one (2 Corinthians 11:12-15), but it still works in God's favor (2 Thessalonians 2), since he wants to reward with his things, only those who love him, not those who don't love truth and rightness (1 Corinthians 2:9).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe, as the Bible says, there is an enemy of God, who is sowing the confusion

I would ask if, lets say we choose to be untruthful and/or not trustworthy, would we put that blame anywhere but on ones own self?

Could it be our own self that is the enemy, as we are created in Gods Image and that Image is like this;

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Thus it may be saying, we are the light or we are the darkness. Our choice.

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

I would have thought truthfulness to be a virtue of such fundamental importance that almost every self-respecting and half decent human would practice it. If we are truthful we have integrity and people are more likely to trust us, want to have us as friends, employ us or even marry us. If we lie or are deceitful then we betray that trust. We may hurt the one’s who are the most important to us.

Yet many of those who lead us whether in government, work, religion or parents lie all the time. It’s hard to feel confident about the future when people in charge are the wrong people. Instead of being the most able and capable people whose purpose is to serve their communities, they are really concerned about themselves and are not who they say they are. Their words and actions don’t match.

FWIW my faith teaches:

Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cited in The Advent of Divine Justice

Truthfulness, Trustworthiness and Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of my religion I take these words seriously. I don’t really care too much if people believe what I believe. I do care if they are truthful and can be trusted.

How important is truthfulness in your worldview or faith and how important do you consider the practice of telling the truth to be?

A truthful job interview at campus:-
" I really don't care about the job or the company. I cribbed all the company info 30 minutes before the interview. I have forgetten half of the things I put as my expertize in the CV. But I really really need the money to get out of all the student loans and am tired of living in crappy rooms with 4 other annoying "friends" and eating processed food day and night. So please please hire me."

That would go well.

 

[nPeace]

I would ask if lets say we choose to be untruthful and/or not trustworthy, would we put that blame anywhere but on ones own self?

Could it be our own self that is the enemy, as we are created in Gods Image and that Image is like this;

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Thus it may be saying, we are the light or we are the darkness. Our choice.

Regards Tony

Everyone that speaks untruth, or does wrong doesn't always do so with malicious intent. Sometimes persons are misled or deceived.
The one who sets out to mislead, tries to hide their true motives.

However, some persons do go along with the deceptive person, in carrying out their deception.

So we have Satan, who deceives and misleads, and covers his tracks, and we have his ministers - those who act with deception.

Here is an illustration I like to use to explain Isaiah 45:7
I enter a lighted room, hit the switch, and everything is dark. I might say, "I created darkness." Not that I took something in my hands and formed darkness.
I may be at peace with someone, then something happens that causes me to react against that person. It would be as though I create war or evil against that person.

God has acted against people in the past creating evil against them.
He has also turned back to them, creating peace.

 

[Dawnofhope]

A truthful job interview at campus:-
" I really don't care about the job or the company. I cribbed all the company info 30 minutes before the interview. I have forgetten half of the things I put as my expertize in the CV. But I really really need the money to get out of all the student loans and am tired of living in crappy rooms with 4 other annoying "friends" and eating processed food day and night. So please please hire me."

That would go well.

A well respected CEO of a government department I worked at many years ago once advised me always be honest except when writing your CV and presenting yourself at a job interview lol

 

[sayak83]

A well respected CEO of a government department I worked at many years ago once advised me always be honest except when writing your CV and presenting yourself at a job interview lol

It is also common experience that perfect honesty with your significant other during usual arguments is not a good recipe for domestic bliss.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It is also common experience that perfect honesty with your significant other during usual arguments is not a good recipe for domestic bliss.

How often do arguing couples choose that very moment to tells each other what they really think. Out of the pan and into the fire! Truth certanly has its limits lol.

 

[sayak83]

How often do arguing couples choose that very moment to tells each other what they really think. Out of the pan and into the fire! Truth certanly has its limits lol.

Perhaps here is a better formulation.
It is important to understand the truths about the human condition and act and speak in ways that are sensitive to these truths such that suffering is minimized and wellbeing is advanced.