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Featured How important is truthfulness?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Oct 9, 2018.

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  1. Extremely

    69.7%
  2. Very important

    9.1%
  3. It’s important but there are more important considerations

    12.1%
  4. Somewhat

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Marginally

    3.0%
  6. Not at all

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    6.1%
  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    I would have thought truthfulness to be a virtue of such fundamental importance that almost every self-respecting and half decent human would practice it. If we are truthful we have integrity and people are more likely to trust us, want to have us as friends, employ us or even marry us. If we lie or are deceitful then we betray that trust. We may hurt the one’s who are the most important to us.

    Yet many of those who lead us whether in government, work, religion or parents lie all the time. It’s hard to feel confident about the future when people in charge are the wrong people. Instead of being the most able and capable people whose purpose is to serve their communities, they are really concerned about themselves and are not who they say they are. Their words and actions don’t match.

    FWIW my faith teaches:

    Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.
    ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cited in The Advent of Divine Justice

    Truthfulness, Trustworthiness and Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe

    Regardless of the merits or otherwise of my religion I take these words seriously. I don’t really care too much if people believe what I believe. I do care if they are truthful and can be trusted.

    How important is truthfulness in your worldview or faith and how important do you consider the practice of telling the truth to be?
     
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  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    I would see in my everyday life that Trustworthiness and Truthfulness are the foundation to our world.

    Without them humanity has little hope.

    These virtues are a daily struggle, as I also see all the other virtues are reflected in them.

    Regards Tony
     
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  3. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    The institutions are us and reflect us in agergate. But that is always vacilating.
     
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Sammasambuddha

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    Truthfulness is extremely important. I have to give leave or not be so strict givin I have behavioral ticks that make it seem I'm fudging the truth. As long as the parties are patient and not judgmental which is part of truthfulness I'm good.

    So if you really want to become skillful in your thoughts, words, and deeds, you need a trustworthy friend or teacher to point out your blind spots. And because those spots are blindest around your unskillful habits, the primary duty of a trustworthy friend is to point out your faults — for only when you see your faults can you correct them; only when you correct them are you benefiting from your friend's compassion in pointing them out.The Power of Judgment

    With strangers, I try to not put too much judgement on them and keep a balance. That's why the news and people speaking negative I'm not sure they trust people's positiveness despite their actions. So I ignore it or tell then I don't want to hear it.

    With friends and family trust is hugely important. But respect, patience and understanding are higher on my list since I cant control others only myself.

    "In the same way, brahman, that with which you have insulted me, who is not insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from you. It's all yours, brahman. It's all yours.

    "Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together nor sharing your company, brahman. It's all yours. It's all yours." Akkosa Sutta: Insult

    As long as I know I'm honest, unless its things like saving a life, something important, I keep a balance so their dishonesty won't affect me like it would others.
     
    #4 Unveiled Artist, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
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  5. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Truth is as deserves! If everyone received as deserves what a wonderful place this would be. The trouble is in appreciation, discernment and recognition of what is meant when we talk about truth.

    In life Ones truth is not anothers. And moral relativism is a slippery slope. I do not believe that morality is subjective. However if we examine our own subjective experience i believe the truth emanates from being objective about our own inner experience. There are universals coming from that. The capacity for all creatures to love, hate, care, or be ambivalent plus the reality of pain and suffering cries out for moral truth.

    I have listened to some people on youtube talk about moral truth. Guys like CosmicSkeptic, Alex O'Connor, say that there is no good and bad, and that all of morality is subjective. He says skeptics assume nothing and take nothing for granted. His conviction is that there is no good or bad in existence. Only personal conscience as one chooses it to be. What is good for one, is else for another. I am convicted that this is a dangerous road to travel. While there are harmless unique conscience's out there, there is more to be said about what is common to everybody for the benefit of life and survival.

    If truth does not exist then at the very least it is extremely real and pertinent to everybody's common good in concept and practice. The virtues, such as honesty are never outlived nor outdated. And what is honesty but telling someone as they deserve according to just motives. And all justice is is to never ever harm the harmless nor the blameless. And that to me is the truth.
     
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  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    The problem the U.S. government is having is "alternative" facts to base their truth on. I think religion has that same problem. As you've seen many times, people in a religion can take their Scriptures very literal. So those become the "facts". Those "facts" become their truth. So we can have people telling what they say is the truth, but to others, those things are lies. So what you gonna do?
     
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  7. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    So as the saying goes, everybody lies. Most people, though they claim to want the truth, don't really want the truth. Mostly they want you to tell them what they want to hear in a most convincing way.

    We keep electing the same deadhead political types not because they tell us the truth but because they tell us what we want to here. Tell my boss the truth, tell my wife the truth, tell the government the truth, it's only going to cause you trouble. Tell them what they want to hear and everybody's happy.

    What I do see as wrong is lying with the intent to cause harm to someone else.

    Folks lying to me doesn't really bother me. It's not my problem, it theirs. Whatever truth I need is right here in front of me. I don't really need other folks to tell me the truth, I can figure it out for myself.

    Best not to rely on folks telling you the truth anyways as anyone can lie. Even though folks think they can tell a liar, that's not necessarily true. Always told my kids, whatever I tell them, verify it for themselves. Don't always depend on me for the truth.
     
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  8. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    So if someone lies to you, but you take it as the truth, then later you pass it on as the truth, is it still a lie? This I see ... a lot.
     
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  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    That's almost bordering on word salad lol.:)

    Word salad - Wikipedia

    But I kinda know what you mean, you kinda know what you mean, so I kinda agree. :D
     
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  10. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I agree truthfullness is very important. However i also feel that society has created an incentive for people, especially leaders to lie by societies stringent and sometimes overbearing petty standards.

    Now, that still dont excuse there dishonesty, by no means. We should be honest even when its hard to be.
     
    #10 Jollybear, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
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  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    The most important practice to make lasting change in the word is to live according to our highest values and virtues and make concerted efforts each day. The only person we can really change is ourselves and that's hard enough. Maybe those changes will rub off on others as the good in others influnces us.

    We have the rational faculty of the mind that enables us to investigate reality. We have the capacity to discern truth from falsehood, right from wrong, the straight path from the crooked. Its not that hard and we all have the capacity to do just that.

    Once we're living a good life and exercising sound judgement we can approach life the bigger with a degree of knowledge and wisdom. We can wisely choose courses of action the will enable us to bst serve our communities as well as meeting our own needs.

    So what you gonna do?:)
     
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  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That's why I trust the Bible, since it contains the accurate knowledge of the truth that is according to godly devotion and is based on a hope of the everlasting life that God, who cannot lie, promised long ago... Titus 1:1, 2
     
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  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    What may be true for me is a lie for you. But if I am sincere and you think of me as a liar, what good does that do?
     
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  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Lying as a cultural trait in degrees is so prevalent that it makes honesty difficult to define as a virtue. I believe sincerity is the most important virtue.
     
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  15. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    My comment has to do with intention. The person isn't intentionally lying when they repeat what someone else told them, that they believe to be the truth. Children are indoctrinated by their parents, for example, but then often, when they hit puberty, or young adulthood, they question that information, and then start rebuilding their own world view, based on new opinions other than that of their parents.

    People can't just go about accepting anything and everything about the world as truth. The word 'liar' is a pejorative and inflammatory term. I don't believe there are many people who repeat misleading stuff based on their own experiences, but there are a ton of people who repeat what they've been told as they accept it as the truth. So call it what you wish.
     
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  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    I had thought by now a Christian might remind me of Christ's words to build our house on a good foundation:

    Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    Matthew 7:24-27

    Then to hear the truth shall set you free (John 8:32) and to hear that Christ is the truth (John 14:6).

    But the truth is beyond both our religions and affects us all. Besides sometimes the worse liars and hypocrites are leaders of religion.
     
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  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Thanks for clarifying.
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Sammasambuddha

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    Adrian, that sounds like: what may be a murder to you may not be a murder to me (taking another persons life with intent). Lies are lies. Murder is murder. and Theft is theft.

    Our perspectives of what is a lie depends but because we lied (or murdered) whether we perceive it one way or another doesnt excuse the consequence of that lie if there is one you (guys) dont now about yet.

    Truthfullness isnt in the eye of the beholder. If you are not truthful (and dont knowi t), the consequence is on you regardless your intent ignorance, and perspective. Likewise, with Vinakaya who has a different view; this doesnt excuse a lie is a lie just because ya'll define it differently (if it can be defined differently?)

    In The Dharma, I havent read (at least of yet) lies being split based on perspective. I dont know if Bahai teach if there are variations of lies, but The Dharma emphasis just dont. do it. White lies dont slide.

    To be truthful (OP) is to follow ones own ethics. Bu,t for me, if those ethics influence other people, how are they truthful when they infringe on the wellbeing of another person regardless of my perspection on whether it does not?

    Is truth dependent on one's own benefit or also the benefit of another?

    If Truth only benefits the person holding the truth but influences the wellbeing of another, how moral is that truth in definition of it is defined by perspective and not the truth itself?
     
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  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member

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    We could consider what is truth from a more philosophical or metaphysical perspective. That's certainly an interesting discussion. What I'm more concerned is the decline of basic values in both private and public discourse. The breakdown of civility where truth is flagrantly disregarded, facts are delibately distorted to denigrate others, and blatant self-interest becomes the new virtue.

    My comment to another was in regards to myths/facts within religion. An example is the resurrection of Christ. Most Christians believe He was literally resurrected and most non-Christians believe He wasn't. Regardless of who is right, it is belief sincerely held without intent to deceive.
     
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  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    That to me is very important.

    Then we may also have to consider there are levels of deception, one aspect may be out of Love, where a truth is not fully told.

    Regards Tony
     
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