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Featured How important is Satan in your faith or worldview?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Oct 23, 2018.

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?
  1. He literally exists

    30.0%
  2. He is a symbol for our lower nature

    25.0%
  3. He is a mythical creature that assists us understand spiritual truths

    12.5%
  4. He plays no part in my faith

    22.5%
  5. I don't know

    5.0%
  6. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    27.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    The Baha'is have provided you with dozens of biblical verses that refer to the Bab and Baha'u'llah including references to date, place and name.

    I was mocking the absurdity of you quoting this verse. Are you calling the Baha'is Belial or the Devil? Are you calling us unbelievers? What is your point other than petty name calling?

    So more avoidance and deflection?

    I'm not a JW and its never had any appeal whatsoever. So if Charles Taze Russell didn't found or start the JW movement, who did? It certainly wasn't Christ.

    Maybe none of your leaders make any prophetic claims but a number of predictions have been made about the future including those based on apocalyptic scripture. Then every JW I come across seems convinced its all going to happen for certain. You all parrot the same stuff.Maybe you get shunned or disfellowshipped if you stray too far? You may not call it prophecy but it certainly looks like prophecy to me.

    In fact if we go to a dictionary and define prophecy we come up with:

    a statement that says what is going to happen in the future, especially one that is based on what you believe about a particular matter rather than existing facts:

    the ability to say what is going to happen in the future

    PROPHECY | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

    So you can twist words and meanings, pretend that your unique JW beliefs are not prophecy but they meet the dictionary definition. So when you guys have these prophecies that don't come to pass, you back paddle and try to say it was never a prophecy in the first place.

    Wrong again. We all have the capacity to interpret the Bible. However certain apocalyptic verses such as those in Daniel and Revelation are sealed and only those who recognise the Returned Christ and follow Him will be able to understand and explain it. Anything less and we end up with the kind of nonsense your church teaches.
     
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I'm just trying to investigate what your religion is about and so was questioning the history of your religion. You sound defensive. Lets see what the article in Wikipedia says shall we.


    First the article talks about false predictions made by your church. It says:


    The beliefs unique to Jehovah's Witnesses involve their interpretations of the second coming of Christ, the millennium and the kingdom of God. Watch Tower Society publications have made, and continue to make, predictions about world events they believe were prophesied in the Bible. Some of those early predictions were described as "established truth", and 'beyond a doubt'. Witnesses are told to 'be complete in accepting the visible organization's direction in every aspect' and that there is no need to question what God tells them through his Word and organization since love "believes all things."If a member advocates views different to what appears in print, they face expulsion.


    That sounds fairly convincing to me and in sync with everything I've heard from JW members as well as ex-members, but go ahead and tell me hows it wrong.


    Then we have some quite specific information.


    Failed predictions that were either explicitly stated or strongly implied, particularly linked to dates in 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925 and 1975, have led to the alteration or abandonment of some teachings. The Society's publications have at times suggested that members had previously "read into the Watch Tower statements that were never intended" or that the beliefs of members were "based on wrong premises." According to Professor Edmond Gruss, other failed predictions were ignored, and replaced with new predictions; for example, in the book, The Finished Mystery (1917), events were applied to the years 1918 to 1925 that earlier had been held to occur prior to 1914. When the new interpretations also did not transpire, the 1926 edition of the book changed the statements and removed the dates.


    So that gives a very clear and convincing account of failed prophecies or predictions don't you think?


    We even have some very specific information quoted from your literature with references included. Predictions (by date of publication) include:

    • 1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favor; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[28]
    • 1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men."[29]
    • 1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[30]
    • 1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[31]
    • 1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions." Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy." The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[32]
    • 1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[33]
    • 1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[34]
    • 1924: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[35]
    • 1938: Armageddon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[36]
    • 1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[37]
    • 1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us."[38]
    • 1961: Awake! magazine stated that Armageddon "will come in the twentieth century. ... This generation will see its fulfillment."[39]
    • 1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[40] Time was "running out, no question about that."[41] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.
    • 1967: The end-time period (beginning in 1914) was claimed to be so far advanced that the time remaining could "be compared, not just to the last day of a week, but rather, to the last part of that day".[42]
    • 1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[43] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[44]
    • 1969: The existing world order would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years." Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[45]
    • 1971: The "battle in the day of Jehovah" was described as beginning "hortly, within our twentieth century".[46]
    • 1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service."[47]
    • 1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.[48]
    • 1989: The Watchtower asserted that Christian missionary work begun in the first century would "be completed in our 20th century".[49] When the magazine was republished in bound volumes, the phrase "in our 20th century" was replaced with the less specific "in our day".

    That is quite a list don't you think?


    So maybe the information is inaccurate but it ties in with everything I know about the JWs to date.
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Clearly many of the JW prophecies/predictions have totally missed the mark. What has been the response from your church?

    The Watch Tower Society rejects accusations that it is a false prophet.[20][21] It admits its explanations of Bible prophecy are not infallible[22][23][24][25] and that its predictions are not claimed explicitly as "the words of Jehovah."[20] It states that some of its expectations have needed adjustment because of eagerness for God's kingdom, but that those adjustments are no reason to "call into question the whole body of truth."[26] Raymond Franz claims that the Watch Tower Society tries to evade its responsibility when citing human fallibility as a defense, adding that the Society represents itself as God's appointed spokesman, and that throughout its history has made many emphatic predictions. Franz adds that the organization's eagerness for the Millennium does not give it license to impugn the motives of those who fail to accept its predictions.[6]


    George D. Chryssides has suggested widespread claims that Witnesses "keep changing the dates" are a distortion and misunderstanding of Watch Tower Society chronology. He argues that, although there have been failures in prophetic speculation, the changing views and dates of the Jehovah's Witnesses are more largely attributable to changed understandings of biblical chronology than to failed predictions. Chryssides states, "For the Jehovah’s Witnesses prophecy serves more as a way of discerning a divine plan in human history than a means to predicting the future."[27]

    That seems like something the JWs would be likely to say to defend their position, doesn't it?

    Thank you for providing me with some information about your faith and its history. Lets examine it:

    “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”—PROVERBS 4:18.

    You can call yourselves bright lights but unless your actions, wisdom and knowledge reflect this, its just empty words.

    Paragraphs 1 -4, In regards full acceptance of Jesus and His apostles we are agreed.

    Paragraph 5 onwards and the 19th century. Interesting time with intense Messianic expectation world wide in both Christendom and Islam.

    William Miller even predicted 1844, the year the Bab declared.

    [​IMG]

    Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

    I suppose they missed Him!

    The sense of Messianic expectation was also at the heart of those who founded the JWs such as C.T. Russell. So he did make all these prophecies/predictions and then 'claimed' humility as they were actually from God, not Him! Right. You don't see the irony with that kind of humility!?

    I do agree with the rejection of the Trinty doctrine but then Muhammad had rejected this doctrine in the 7th century AD over 1260 years beforehand...isn't that ironic.

    People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.

    — Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

    Islamic view of the Trinity - Wikipedia

    So with this spirit of messianic expectation that pervaded the planet (remember Islam were expecting the Qa'im or Mahdi), C.T. Russell attracted a following of like minded people who knew something was in the ether but couldn't quite put their finger on it.

    Paragraph 9:

    Unfortunately he dispensed with a core Christian belief in a soul that carries on beyond this world. Big mistake as our actions have repercussions in the next work whether we believe it or not. Then he came up with this preposterous interpretation based on Revelation 14:1 that only 144,000 annointed ones get to hang out with Jesus. No wonder the other Christian churches hate the JWs. That must get a few faithful Christians fired up lol. :D Do you need to be a JW to be one of these 144,000?

    I suppose I can take or leave my pagan holidays but had always thought the ressurection of Christ and the birth of our Lord Jesus to be events worth commerating if not celebrating. That must have annoyed a few more Christians if they hadn't twigged as to the implications of your 144,000 prophecy (I mean prediction).

    So after WWI there would have been many disheartened and disillusioned folk out there. I suppose if they weren't aware of the failed predictions your faith would have attracted quite a few converts.

    Then I guess all this other crazy interpretation of the book of revelation happened.

    The United Nations as the beast? Do you have any idea at how necessary a body such as the UN has been? Its obviously imperfect for all to see but its achievements have been astounding. To associate the attempts of peoples of good will and faith worldwide to bring a much needed peace..with the beast is sickening. I suppose those that are blind and intoxicated by self-deciet (Satan) make these huge errors in judgement. The problem is that you have become the kind of Christians Jesus talked about in Matthew 25:31-46.

    When I started this thread I wasn't expecting you to respond at all, but I'm glad you did. I now have clarification to my Satan question. Satan is about being deceived, misguided and tested. Deceived as Adam and Eve were. Tested as Job. Challenged to conquer our lower nature and prepare for our mission in life as Jesus was in the desert. Misguided as Peter was when He didn't understand that Christ needed to be crucified. Satan can mean a few things. In regards deception, in my experience it is the ones who talk about Satan the most who are the least insightful and are really projecting their own confusion and distortions of reality onto others.

    Thank you for helping me see that.:)
     
    #63 adrian009, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Ah. I see what this is about - nothing more than a bash of JWs, and Christianity. :smirk: I'm amused. Not impressed, but amused.

    Well since Bahais interpretation of scriptures have not proven to be based on scriptures, but based on the writings of persons claiming to be prophets, and Messiahs, which the Bible in no uncertain terms warned against, there is no need for me to address those interpretations they have on who is true from who isn't.

    If Bahais want to use the scriptures to do so, then they have got my attention.
    The writings of Bab, and Bahaullah have not been confirmed by scriptures. On the contrary, they have contradicted scripture.

    Before I get back to the topic you started, and seemed to have strayed so far from, there are a few things needing to be cleared up.

    No they have not. They provided interpretations, which they agree are what corrupts scripture.
    If one provides scriptures, that show something, there is no need to interpret them - worst yet by using outside writings.
    I'll demonstrate shortly how that is done. :)

    :( This one is sad - sad because I told you why I quoted the scripture, and you come back with the same thing again. Did you read that post, or are you having so much problems with this text, to understand?
    I'll repeat it again a second time. :)
    Here it is, from this post.
    No. I didn't quote the verse for the reason you assume adrian.
    To be honest, you seem kind of touchy when it comes to defending your faith.
    You even take the position of assuming that someone is uneducated about your faith, sort of like those that accuse others of being ignorant about science, just because they disagree with their beliefs.
    Is that how you go about defending your faith?

    Defending ones faith does not mean responding to questions that seem easy to address, or scripture that one feels they might be able to easily interpret. It means being able to show why what you believe is solidly based on what your claim is the truth - no matter who challenges it.

    If you note my statement above, it reads, "The apostle Paul warned against interfaith at 2 Corinthians 6"
    Then the scripture is quoted.

    Why do you say I need to educate myself about the Bahai faith?
    Do you imagine that I debate a topic I don't know about? I don't .
    I am assuming you know what interfaith is. The scripture I used is on point with my statement.
    If you don't want to discuss that point, you just have to say so. No need to attack my education status.


    The Pharisees did, accuse the ordinary people of being uneducated about Jewish law.
    I hope you don't go jumping to the conclusion that I am implying that you are like those Pharisees. :)
    Jumping to conclusions can throw civility out the window too. ;)

    If that doesn't do it, I don't know what will.
    Okay. Now a few points about your bashing... Your first bash... in this post, that is. :D
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I don't need to avoid anything. Do you feel that is necessary?
    So you say Christ did not start JWs, but evidence shows that we are Jehovah's Witnesses. :) and followers of his son Christ Jesus - the true Messiah and prophet. :p
    Evidence from scripture...
    Originally composed in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, the Bible has been translated, in whole or in part, into about 2,600 languages. It is by far the most widely translated and distributed book in history. We should expect nothing less. Bible prophecy states:
    And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)

    The message of the true prophets, and Messiah.
    John the Baptist -
    In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2saying: “Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near. (Matthew 3:1, 2)

    Jesus the Christ (Messiah) -
    16 The people sitting in darkness saw a great light, and as for those sitting in a region of deathly shadow, light rose on them.” 17From that time on, Jesus began preaching and saying: “Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near. (Matthew 4:16, 17)

    43 But he said to them: “I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.” 44 So he went on preaching in the synagogues of Judea. (Luke 4:43, 44)
    Matthew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:10,20

    The followers of Jesus Christ -

    5These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Samaritan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7As you go, preach, saying: ‘The Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ (Matthew 10:5-7)

    Shortly afterward he traveled from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God. And the Twelve were with him, (Luke 8:1)
    Luke 10:1-12;

    Whom do we find for over a century preaching the message - the good news of the Kingdom of God, to all nations, and tribe, and people, and tongue, as carried out, commanded, and prophesied by our Lord Jesus Christ?
    Whom do we find using the method of our Lord Jesus Christ to share the Kingdom message to all the world?
    Rather than blow our own trumpet, we asked people this question?
    The answer - Jehovah's Witnesses.

    So right there Adrian, we see that both the scriptures, and other testimonies, give evidence that JWs have been appointed by Jesus Christ - not a man.
    The men are mere instruments, offering themselves to do God's will, in imitation of Jesus Christ - God's appointed, and anointed. All of us - men and women - including those appointed to take the lead, as is necessary if we are to have unity - are fallible, seeking God's direction through his word, the scriptures.
    We are vessels carrying out God will, to the end.

    On the point about unity, this needs to be cleared up.
    Jehovah's Witnesses, are Christians. They are united, in every area of the globe, where found - united in the same mind, and the same line of thought. That is, they agree completely on teaching worldwide, in 236 lands.
    There are no doctrinal disagreements among them, and they are united in love.
    1 Corinthians 1:10
    Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

    So when you say Adrian, that Christianity is divided, and on its way out, I agree that apostate Christianity is on its way out, but it's on its way out with all the other false religions - including those that follow prophets and Messiahs claiming to be Jesus returning (Revelation 17:16-18). That's why God tells persons within those religions...
    Revelation 18:4, 5
    4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.

    Those followers of Jesus Christ - true Christians - are here to stay. United, and uniting.

    Leaders? There are no leaders among JWs... but one. Have you ever heard any JW refer to any of their brother as Leader? o_O
    You should know by now, in fact it should be clear, that JWs follow the Bible.
    Matthew 23:8-11
    8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister.

    Wait, Adrian! Who does what Jesus said not to do? Anyone you Know? [​IMG]

    Hmm. Another bash,
    No. Do you want me to repeat that 600 times... Would that help.
    None of JWs claim to be prophets, so your trying to pin it on them is fruitless.
    They proclaim God's message, as Jesus said, and if they get things wrong, it's nothing new. The apostles who walked with Christ, did not get everything right at all times. Like the JWs, they had expectations that they were mistaken about - which were cleared up later.

    That's different to rejecting God's word, or putting other writings above it, that clearly were not referred to in scripture. ;)

    LOL. [​IMG] Wow! Really leaning into the bashing... What the Bible teaches is not nonsense. Is not what we teach, what the Bible teaches?

    Now that we are on that point...
    Back to the topic I thought was the focus.
     
    #65 nPeace, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Satan
    What the scriptures say.
    Beelzebub - A designation applied to Satan, the prince, or ruler, of the demons
    Matthew 12:24-30
    24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.” 25Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Beelzebub, by whom do your sons expel them? This is why they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you. 29 Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
    Mark 3:26
    26 Also, if Satan has risen up against himself and has become divided, he cannot stand but is coming to an end.
    Ephesians 6:11-17
    11Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. ...16Besides all of this, take up the large shield of faith, with which you will be able to extinguish all the wicked one’s burning arrows. 17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word,
    Luke 10:17-20
    17Then the 70 returned with joy, saying: “Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name. 18At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you. 20Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are made subject to you, but rejoice because your names have been written in the heavens.”
    Job 1:6-12
    6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them. 7Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.” ...........Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah.
    Job 2:4-8
    4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.” 6 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! He is in your hand! Only do not take his life!” 7 So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. 8 And Job took a piece of broken pottery to scrape himself, and he was sitting among the ashes.
    Luke 22:31
    “Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have all of you to sift you as wheat.
    1 Peter 5:8, 9
    8Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world.
    1 Chronicles 21:1
    Then Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to number Israel.
    Zechariah 3:1, 2
    1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan was standing at his right hand to resist him. 2Then the angel of Jehovah said to Satan: “May Jehovah rebuke you, O Satan, yes, may Jehovah, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this one a burning log snatched out of the fire?”
    Luke 13:16-18
    16Should not this woman, who is a daughter of Abraham and whom Satan held bound for 18 years, be released from this bondage on the Sabbath day?”
    Luke 22:3, 4
    3Then Satan entered into Judas, the one called Iscariot, who was numbered among the Twelve, 4 and he went off and talked with the chief priests and temple captains about how to betray him to them. Acts 5:1-4;

    1 Timothy 5:15
    In fact, some have already been turned aside to follow Satan.
    Matthew 4:10
    Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
    Mark 1:13
    So he continued in the wilderness for 40 days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild beasts, but the angels were ministering to him.
    2 Corinthians 11:12-15
    12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.
    1 Thessalonians 2:18
    For this reason we wanted to come to you, yes I, Paul, tried not just once but twice; yet Satan cut across our path.
    2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
    9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved.
    (Romans 16:19, 20)
    19 Your obedience has come to the notice of all, and so I rejoice over you. But I want you to be wise as to what is good, but innocent as to what is evil. 20For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with you.
    1 Corinthians 7:4, 5
    4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but her husband does; likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but his wife does. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent for an appointed time, so that you may devote time to prayer and may come together again, in order that Satan may not keep tempting you for your lack of self-control.
    2 Corinthians 2:10, 11
    10 If you forgive anyone for anything, I do also. In fact, whatever I have forgiven (if I have forgiven anything) has been for your sake in Christ’s sight, 11so that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs. Acts 26:15-18

    There are so many, I got to cut, but I really want to highlight these. Sorry to swamp you. ;)
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    John 12:31
    Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
    John 16:11
    then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
    Hebrews 2:14
    Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil,
    Revelation 12:7-12
    7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

    How does one go about interpreting these scriptures, to mean anything different than what they say?

    These scriptures clearly say that Satan is the ruler of the demons - fallen angels.
    The scriptures say that Satan opposes and accuses, tempts and influences God's servants, both heavenly and earthly, and that he traversed heaven and earth to do so, until he was cast out of heaven to the earth, no more able to accuse those in heaven.
    Satan and his demons have power to affect our health, and life.

    This is what the Bible teaches, and JWs teach the same thing. They believe the Bible, and teach what it say. This is not nonsense, is it?

    The only way I can one putting an interpretation to these texts, to make Satan out as anything less, is by doing what you accused me of Adrian - twisting the scriptures. With that, what scripture can't be interpreted to mean what it doesn't say? :shrug:

    I'll use your own words. I have permission to do that. :D

    How important is Satan in your faith or worldview?
    So how can you take the scripture at Matthew 16:23 which you have no idea what Jesus meant, and use it to interpret other texts to fit your beliefs?

    I already told you the information was inaccurate for the reason that there are misunderstandings, and misinterpretations of various articles.
    If you really were interested in knowing the truth, you would not persist in accepting misinformation. I wouldn't do that, if I were talking with you, and you told me I was misinformed. Suit yourself though.
    You yourself are misinformed. :)

    Here is an example...
    Where does the article call us flashes of light, or bright lights?
    LOL. [​IMG]

    You're most welcomed. :)
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I'm enquiring into the truth or otherwise of the Jehovah Witnesses. I know about Christianity. The JWs claim to be Christians yet declare themselves right and the rest of Christianity wrong. That doesn't sound like anything based on the teachings of Christ. Then again the history books of Christianity are filled denominations and sects that do just that. So although I regard the JWs as a denomination of Christianity (albeit a misguided one), I am enquiring about the JWs, not Christendom as a whole. I'm not bashing. I am open about my concerns and criticisms with your faith as you are about mine.

    You confuse personal belief with proof. They are two very different things. You haven't proven anything. You have decided on the basis of your JW beliefs that the Baha'i Faith is a false religion.

    We both have our understanding of scripture. You claim to have the true understanding of scripture and declare all other Christian denomination wrong. I'm not surprised of your severe criticisms of the Baha'i Faith. Your interpretations are clearly based on Charles Russel and those who have gone after him. I don't consider the JWs to have any more truth than the Catholics or evangelical Christians, not even close. The point I made in an earlier post is the contradictions and inconsistencies between most Christian groups who claim their understanding is based on the bible. So when you say the Baha'i Faith teachings are not confirmed by scripture, its just the same rhetoric that Christians have been throwing at each other for centuries.

    I agree that I have strayed from the OP topic. Then again the general open conversation has dried up as it does with most threads so its largely just the two of us. If you don't want to discuss you faith and defend it, and I understand why it would be uncomfortable for you, then I will desist.
     
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    As I recall you withdrew from our conversation in the last thread before I had time to respond. Whether you liken the Baha'is to the Devil, unbelievers or Pharisees is all the same to me @nPeace . Its an offensive and rude thing to say about another religion or a person. Your attack on the Baha'is has my attention and is the reason I'm blunt in some of my comments. When you make statements such as this it changes the nature of the discussion. That is why my attitude and tone towards you and your JW beliefs has changed. However I don't want to be uncivilised.

    BTW are you saying that it is just me who is like a Pharisee or the Baha'is generally? Jesus reserved some of His strongest criticisms for the Pharisees of course. He never called them Belial or unbelievers though.

    In regards your education status, I don't care at all if you left school at age 13 or you happen to be a university professor. What does matter is you make statements that are factually based. My first issue with your lack of knowledge of the Baha'is is when you lumped us together with the Ahmadiyyas here.

    Disagreements regarding Chosen Ones of God

    The Baha'is and Ahmadiyyas are two completely different religions. You haven't acknowledged your error but I'm no longer expecting any fairness or balance anymore. You had clearly made up your mind that the Bab was a false Messiah and That Baha'is supported Muhammad and not the Bible when you made that post.

    I think what you mean by having done research and being educated is that you know the bible. You clearly have little knowledge of other religions including Islam, the Baha'i Faith and the Ahmadiyyas. If you do you haven't demonstrated it.

    So who was jumping to conclusions about the Baha'i Faith?

    In regards the material from Wikipedia I haven't heard an convincing repudiation of what seems to be a fair and balanced essay.
     
    #69 adrian009, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Seriously!? It wasn't the JWs who spread the gospels throughout the world as Christ commanded. It was all those other Christians you label as false or apostates. You want to identify as being part of the body of Christ and yet take issue with the entirety of Christendom at the same time. Don't claim their accomplishments as you own.

    You can not claim unity when there is such clear schism and division, nor use words like apostate to apply to most of Christendom. Who are the true Christians and who are the false Christians? As soon as you go down that rabbit hole you just end up offending and alienating more people than you already have.

    We will need to agree to disagree about our respective understandings of the nature of Satan. Quoting scripture in large red font won't change that.

    I think we will need to draw this conversation to a close soon. I haven't the time to respond to all of your post. Perhaps one thing we can agree on is we know enough about each others faith for me to know the JWs is not for me as you know the Baha'i Faith isn't for you. Thanks for at least trying to defend your faith and answer my questions. Obviously I'm not satisfied with your answers but it is what it is. There appears to be plenty of information on the internet that helps make sense of it and answer honestly the questions you can not.
     
    #70 adrian009, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No. I only used scriptures, nothing else.
    All you have to do is use scriptures to show that I am wrong. You have not done this, but you have resorted to Bahai's beliefs, and Bahaullah teachings.

    No way. I don't appreciate that at all.
    I have not pulled one single quote from any of JWs, unlike what Bahais have done from my first conversation with them. The first thing they do is point to a reference with Bahaullah teachings... which was the reason for my having a debate with you.
    This is how it started... with another person.
    I said...
    Can you not give me a few scriptures?
    I have been given references from Bahai, and 1. It was a lot to read, and 2. I did not understand it. It was confusing, I had to ask the person to explain, which they were nice enough to do.
    I find though that when asking Bahais questions, they seem reluctant to answer the questions from the Bible, but they quickly refer to the Reference Site.
    Is this because Bahais are not familiar with the Bible, as they are with the writings of their prophet?

    A quick glance at the link tells me that I am only in for a long read which I probably will still have to end up asking for an explanation... again. Apparently there is only one book and chapter used from the Bible - Revelation 11.

    If that's the only scripture then that only leaves one guessing, since it's symbolic.
    I don't recall Revelation mentioning Elijah either, so how would that help?

    I'll see if @adrian009 , or @Trailblazer might be able to help me with some of the scriptures.
    It's so much better having a one to one conversation.


    Thanks for the conversation.

    So please note, I was asking for scriptural reasoning, and that's all I was using.


    That's funny. Interesting twist.
    I'm open to discuss my faith anytime.
    Let's get Satan out of the way first. If afterwards you want to run this thread into the ground with it, be my guest. If you want to start a new thread, and hit it there, do so.
    Whichever way, I am always ready to discuss, and defend my faith.
    Fair is fair though. Are you willing to defend yours at the same time?
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Wow. Another interesting twist.
    So. I challenge you to show me where I
    If you can do that, then I would submit that you are not using tactical psychology to try and make me look like a Devil. [​IMG]

    I await your response to the above. I previously explained to you that you misunderstood, but instead of asking me to clarify, you return again with the same mistaken view - only it appears to be worst.


    I don't want to jump to conclusions, so do you think you can do better than just offer what seems to me, an opinion?
    Where are your facts?

    You pulled up a lot of information previously when you "wanted to know more about JWs". So I would like to see some on your above claims... please.

    I'm not pushy.
    So can I ask though, did you open the thread, just to know the different views of others, on Satan, or were you interested also, in how persons understood what the Bible said about Satan?

    Oh by the way @adrian009, I did more than quote scriptures, I made statements, addressing your Op. Do they count?
     
    #72 nPeace, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  13. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

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    śrī kṛṣṇasya sevāyām - “In Lord Krishna’s service”
    I don't believe he exists. Hinduism has no concept of anything like Satan.
     
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  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    @nPeace

    Just as an interlude from our interfaith banter, how about telling me about yourself. Nothing too detailed or personal if you are uncomfortable. I'm happy to do the same.

    How did you across the JWs and what made you decide it was correct?
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    In one sentence - John 6:44

    In brief -
    Jeremiah 17:10; 2 Chronicles 16:9; 1 Peter 3:10-12; 1 Samuel 16:7; Jehovah - the true God searches hearts.
    I had a good heart - still do. :) Genuine and unhypocritical, tender...

    So without going into details about my life, my humble spirit allowed me to search for Jehovah - at the time, I didn't know him as such - he let himself be found by me..
    1 Chronicles 28:9 . . .for Jehovah searches through all hearts, and he discerns every inclination of the thoughts. If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you, but if you leave him, he will reject you forever.

    A bit more detailed -
    I had a love for, and respect for the Bible, apparently because of my mother - my personality may be due to her also.

    Even though I stopped attending the religion I grew up with, I still read the Bible on occasion.

    Although I didn't know about the JWs, whenever they called, I would answer the door, - while everyone else hid - since I didn't feel it was nice not to answer.

    Had a friend who apparently had attended meeting at the KH of JWs, and liked it, so they invited me.
    I went, and was impressed that the Bible was used extensively, and everyone followed along in their copy. Fortunately I had my own copy, but even if I didn't, as I learned later - if you came without a Bible, you would be sure you'll get one.

    Anyway, I saw, and learned something from the Bible, that was new to me. I liked that, so I went the next week.
    The same thing happened - I learned something... which was opposite to the religion I attended before, and the reason I had quit it - not learning anything... or at least feeling that way.

    As is with the custom of JWs - fishing for men. I was approached by a very nice brother - probably nicer than I am. :D He invited me to have a free home Bible study, an offer that everyone gets, whom JWs find shows interest. Of course I didn't refuse.

    I don't recall how long I studied for - could have been between 6 months to a year or more, but I feel it might have been under a year, since as a very intelligent guy :D I am usually one step ahead.

    Nonetheless, everything I was questioning, and discussing, was answered clearly and satisfactorily from the Bible.
    I was convinced, more than before that the Bible contains the truth, JWs understood it - not perfectly, but accurately enough.
    So soon after, I began sharing my beliefs with my neighbors, from door to door, in obedience to Jesus, the master of the harvest (Matthew 9:35-10:1).

    Oh joy of joys. That was the most enjoyable work I have ever done, so soon after, I made a dedication, got baptized, and a few months after, took up full time ministry.
    Throughout my ministry, I had discussions with SDA, Penticostals, Baptists, Mormons, Nazarenes, Atheists, Agnostics, met a Bahai once, but the conversation was quite short, and many welcoming and not so welcoming people... and oh yeah... the boys and girls on the block. ;)

    To this day, I can't say that I have met any who can explain the Bible's message without there being conflicts... except JWs.

    I'm glad I found this forum though, because I got to converse with Bahai, and get a framed picture of them. I won't tell you what that picture looks like compared to all the other faiths I met before, since the mood has changed.

    So. that's my story.
    What about you. :)
     
    #75 nPeace, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
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  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Scriptures are of no benefit if they are not understood or twisted to suit an agenda.

    The JWs have made numerous predictions/prophecies that have failed as clearly demonstrated.

    Deuteronomy
    18:18-22

    Wikipedia is not alone in its assessment of your faith.

    A Catholic Critique of Jehovah's Witnesses

    What is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

    I'm willing to defend my Faith.

    2 Corinthians 6 has nothing to do with interfaith in the modern world. You are quoting from a letter Paul wrote to a church in Greece nearly two thousand years ago. At that time Christianity was distinguishing itself from Greco-Roman culture and Judaism. It had nothing to do with Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or even other denominations of Christianity.

    Christian mission - Wikipedia

    Timeline of Christian missions - Wikipedia

    I don't see the JWs playing an important part of the missionary work of Christians do you?

    I do see JWs going door ot door in countries where Christianity is well established and trying to convince people on the doorstep that the JWs have the right version of Christianity and trying to convert.

    Why don't you look through the thread and see how I've responded. I've respected the diversity of belief presented and have avoided harrassing people to believe what I believe. I've been genuinely interested in what others have to say including from Christians that do believe in Satan.

    Not of you don't appreciate the likely origins of the ideas presented.

    First things first and you need to ask yourself why there is such a different emphasis on Satan, angels and demons in the NT compared to the Tanakh. Its not just Jesus but the gospel writers too. The most likely explanation links cultural influences on Judiasm through the exile period including the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and then Romans. It is interesting that if we consider Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1we have mention of King Cyrus as the annointed one. Who was King Cyrus?

    Cyrus the Great - Wikipedia

    What was most likely his religion?

    Cyrus the Great - Wikipedia

    Who was Zarathestra?

    Zoroaster - Wikipedia

    Zoroaster brought a religion called Zoroatrianism that had a dualistic outlook with God/Satan, Good/Evil, and Angels/demons

    DUALISM – Encyclopaedia Iranica
     
  17. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    For most of the time Satan or the devil was a running joke. Something about the idea of witches scared the populace into fearing this fictional character. I don't pretend to understand.

    Satan is a joke. Demons are fictional. Ghosts aren't real. Then again god is everything I just said. He or she is a joke, fictional and not real. Maybe. I see no good evidence so I guess I'm as agnostic about god and the devil as I am about the monster under my bed.
     
  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I grew up with the Presbyterian Church but in my teenage years religion wasn't a priority. I did OK as school so gained admission into a medical school 500 miles from my home. I had a difficult year and reconnected with my Christian roots but came across evangelical Christians for the first time who were ultimately a turn off. One of the issues I had was their claims that their version of Christianity was right and everyone else was wrong...sound familiar lol.:D

    Encouraged by the works of Jesus (John 8:32 and Matthew 7:7-8) I sought to make sense of the conflicting messages I heard. The other issues I had was I having met so many people in my life from different cultures and background. I simply could not accept the literal interpretation of John 14:6 that was presented to me.

    I spent about 5 years searching for the truth and after fervent praying felt led to the Baha'i Faith. I had been with the Baptists the year before becoming a Baha'i and was attracted to the more universalist and inclusive teachings that was respectful of all the major religions along with a narrative as how God had progressively reveal Himself to humanity. I spent about 8 months investigating before deciding it was for me. A few years later a returned to complete my medical training and then married and had children.

    I've been a Baha'i for nearly 30 years. I do keep close contact with my Christian brothers and sisters and for the last 7 years have been doing volunteer work for a Christian medical Centre that provides free medical services to those most in need. I have done some bible study with the a couple of the Christians that work there. That led me to want to develop a more complete understanding of not just Christianity but the other major world religions too. So I'm here to learn about other faiths. I'm a representative of my cities interfaith council. Multiculturalism has always been part of my life and I enjoy meeting people from different faiths and backgrounds.

    Although I enjoy the associations with peoples of different faiths I try avoid arguments as they are fruitless and time consuming. :)
     
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  19. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    If Satan, who is a powerful destructive force, has indeed been cast down to Earth, then the survival of our species may depend on us humans being an interplanetary species living far beyond Satan's realm of destruction and influence over Earth.

    Parts of the heavens are indeed there for us humans to transform into biospheres sustaining human life. Mars is likely the first place beyond Earth in our solar system to get a man-made biosphere that is an appreciable fraction in size comparable to Earth's biosphere. [​IMG]

    The first step towards the terraforming of Mars is the deployment of a magnetic shield that protects Mars against the solar wind stripping of its atmosphere. This magnetic shielding would subsequently allow the planet's atmosphere to reacquire its former density that'd be high enough to allow for sustainable surface liquid water.

    [​IMG]


    An effective artificial magnetosphere placed at Langrangian point 1 from Mars is very achievable with foreseeable technology. This magnetic shielding apparatus could weigh less than a few hundred tonnes which is within the load capacity of a big Falcon 9 rocket. I'm guessing the cost of protecting the Martian atmosphere with an artificial magnetosphere would probably be similar to the cost of a small nuclear reactor.


    [​IMG]


    Greenhouse gas emissions and global warming is something we humans do very well. Global warming is bad for most life and people on Earth, but global warming is what Mars needs for it to become a place for people to live .

    Some few billion tonnes of sulfur hexafluoride gas (SF6) could increase Martian atmospheric surface temperatures by over 20 degrees Celsius. Sulfur hexafluoride - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The SpaceX interplanetary transport system could deliver this super greenhouse gas to Mars at a cost of less than $2,000/kg.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Mar...astructure

    A few hundred thousand tonnes of SF6 delivered annually to Mars would cost just approximately $1/2 trillion yearly. This is less than a fraction of a percent of the global economic output value. An accumulation of a few billion tonnes of SF6 at an annual rate of a few hundred thousand tonnes would take less than ten thousand years. The annual cost of less than $100 per person per year on Earth would be totally worth transforming Mars into a world with triple its current atmospheric pressure and a warmer Mars with average surface temperatures greater than typical summer Antarctic temperatures.

    If humans can successfully colonize Mars, then Satan's destructive influence would be left far behind on Earth where it'd then be inconsequential to those people who'd be living on Mars. Right?

    Less than $100/person/year is worth the price for colonizing Mars where Martian colonists will have escaped the evil temptations of Satan who'd be left far behind on Earth.
     
  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Even when people build their beliefs out of what they think is solid bricks or stone, once a person starts questioning and disbelieving what their religion teaches, it starts tearing at the foundation and the whole thing falls down anyway.

    The weakness of the Christian argument for Satan is how he is a minor player in Judaism. I think it very well could be that Judaism and Christianity got a lot of its beliefs of a Satan from other religions. But then, Christianity made him a major player. They found a few verses that supported their belief in the Jewish Scriptures, but so much of the Satan story seems to be related very much to the stories of underworld gods from other religions.

    The weakness for me about the Baha'i argument is that it does tear down Christianity. Who needs Jesus if there is no Satan? What did he save them from? Not the devil or hell. And, since Baha'is believe everyone is going on to the next world and to keep drawing closer to God, Jesus, not only didn't save them from hell, but he's not going to judge and cast evil doers into hell... along with Satan.

    The Baha'is have some analogy about evil being like darkness, and once the light is switched on, the darkness vanishes. But evil really doesn't sound that easy to make disappear. But, if the Christians are correct, then God, the all-knowing God, created this being, let him turn evil, let him take one third of the angels with, and then, God sends him to Earth? I don't know about that. And for what purpose? To corrupt and torment fallible, gullible people? People that God knows would fall away? That most would not turn to Jesus. Or, even those that do, some would have the wrong belief about Jesus and would therefore be cast into hell with Satan anyway?

    I don't know? Both Baha'is and Christians can't be right, so is there a third alternative?
     
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