How important is Satan in your faith or worldview?

[Dawnofhope]

Hi... again.
Everything else seemed accurate but for this part.

I recalled my impression of our conversation. I have no problem with Christians having a belief in a literal Satan as I have no problem with the multiple gods some Hindus believe in. They are not my beliefs but we are all free to believe as we do.

How we approach an interfaith discussion is another area we disagree.

I was wondering how come you thought it was fortunate the conversation didn't last too long, but you raised it here.

I have no problem with you personally. My impression was you wanting to discuss with the Baha’is their religion with a focus on Satan to proselytise and convert. If that’s not true you can deny it. If it is true then for me it is what it is.

Perhaps you wanted to put it to rest, so to speak... and I agree there should be some closure. Although I thought there was.

I thought we had closed it off as per your wishes. If you want to continue the discussion or not that’s fine. My post here was to explore the beliefs many people have about Satan. I’ve been pleased with the responses thus far. I’m also interested in how that be discussed constructively or not within interfaith dialogue.

So let's see where this leads.
Let's begin with a reference point... again.
The Bible - the original representation of the word of God - is not corrupt, but the interpretation of it most assuredly can be.
Are we both in agreement about this?

Agreed

The first mention of any figure called Satan the Devil, comes from the Bible.

Many Christians would refer to the serpent in the account of Adam and Eve as the first appearance of Satan though he is not given this name.

Do you agree that the serpent in Genesis 3 is Satan?

Should we take this account of Adam and Eve as literal history, allegorical or perhaps a combination of both. Is there another perspective that isn’t reflective of the options I’ve provided?

My questions are as follows:
Do Bahais see the account of Job as literal, or is the entire account allegorical? If yes, Why, and on what basis do they interpret it as such?

I’m not aware of any specific Baha’i writings from memory that refer to the book of Job. With an anthropomorphic view of God and Satan it is at least partly allegorical from a Baha’i perspective. It could well be part historic but the point of the story is to assist us to better understand the nature of suffering, our purpose in life, the nature of God, and how best to respond to tests and difficulties.

Who are the sons of God, Jehovah, Job, the adversary?

The angels of God, God, Job a faithful follower of God, and Satan.

What is the heaven and earth?
Bahais believe that they interpretation is correct, on what basis?

Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation is the foundation of Baha’i beliefs.

In regards our beliefs about heaven and hell here’s a starting point.

Heaven and Hell | What Bahá’ís Believe

We can start with this for the time being.
I am interested to know the response to these questions. Thanks.

It’s fine if you want to converse. If you wish to proselytise and convert me to being a JW using your beliefs about Satan as emotional leverage then I’m ambivalent.

 

[nPeace]

Many Christians would refer to the serpent in the account of Adam and Eve as the first appearance of Satan though he is not given this name.

Do you agree that the serpent in Genesis 3 is Satan?

Should we take this account of Adam and Eve as literal history, allegorical or perhaps a combination of both. Is there another perspective that isn’t reflective of the options I’ve provided?

The Bible contains both literal and figurative narrative.

However, JWs believe there should be a scriptural bases for understanding what is figurative from literal, and therefore harmony of the texts should be maintained.
If there is conflict, then they strive to adjust their understanding to harmonize with the scriptures.

JWs do not understand the serpent in Genesis 3 to be Satan.

Serpent, Snake — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Satan the Devil. At Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 God’s principal opposer, Satan, is referred to as “the original serpent,” evidently because of his employing the literal serpent in Eden as his means of communication with the woman. (Ge 3:1-15) As “the original serpent,” he is also the progenitor in a spiritual sense of other opposers; hence Jesus’ classification of such ones as “serpents, offspring of vipers.” - Matthew 23:33; compare John 8:44; 1 John 3:12.

There is evidence to suggest that the Genesis account is literal, but for a few uses of figurative language.
Using other texts leads us to the conclusion that Adam and Eve were literal.

I’m not aware of any specific Baha’i writings from memory that refer to the book of Job. With an anthropomorphic view of God and Satan it is at least partly allegorical from a Baha’i perspective. It could well be part historic but the point of the story is to assist us to better understand the nature of suffering, our purpose in life, the nature of God, and how best to respond to tests and difficulties.

So your understand is that it is a story with a moral, rather than it being a literal account with real characters?

The angels of God, God, Job a faithful follower of God, and Satan.

Real or allegorical?
So the heaven - where Satan went with the angels, and conversed with God, and earth - where Satan walked about and Job dwelt, mentioned in Job - are they real or allegorical?

It’s fine if you want to converse. If you wish to proselytise and convert me to being a JW using your beliefs about Satan as emotional leverage then I’m ambivalent.

Farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrtherest thing from my mind.

 

[Thief]

serpent....as used in Genesis....
is a description of character

not form

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Bible contains both literal and figurative narrative.

However, JWs believe there should be a scriptural bases for understanding what is figurative from literal, and therefore harmony of the texts should be maintained.
If there is conflict, then they strive to adjust their understanding to harmonize with the scriptures.

JWs do not understand the serpent in Genesis 3 to be Satan.

Serpent, Snake — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Satan the Devil. At Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 God’s principal opposer, Satan, is referred to as “the original serpent,” evidently because of his employing the literal serpent in Eden as his means of communication with the woman. (Ge 3:1-15) As “the original serpent,” he is also the progenitor in a spiritual sense of other opposers; hence Jesus’ classification of such ones as “serpents, offspring of vipers.” - Matthew 23:33; compare John 8:44; 1 John 3:12.

There is evidence to suggest that the Genesis account is literal, but for a few uses of figurative language.
Using other texts leads us to the conclusion that Adam and Eve were literal.

In regards the Bible we need to consider:

- historic and textural context.

For example when Jesus said He was the way, the truth, the light and nobody should come to the father except through Him (John 14:6), we need to see this in the context of Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophecy in Judaism. Extrapolating the statement to make negative comment about Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism is problematic.

- Internal consistency within the text itself and consistency with other biblical texts.

For Baha'is we need to consider consistency with both the Baha'i writings and the Qur'an.

- Consistency with science and reason.

The YECs get themselves in trouble trying to prove the earth is young and less than 10,000 years old.

The Baha'i Teachings are clear:

Science and Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe

In regards the story of Adam and Eve, both Muslims and Baha'is believe Adam was an historic character and the first prophet of the Adamic cycle. Baha'is see most of the story as being allegorical though.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 122-126

So your understand is that it is a story with a moral, rather than it being a literal account with real characters?

I have no idea what human characters in Job were real or otherwise. I didn't write the book and wasn't present when any of it took place. It doesn't matter how much was historic. It clearly has meaning beyond history as does the story of Adam and Eve.

Real or allegorical?
So the heaven - where Satan went with the angels, and conversed with God, and earth - where Satan walked about and Job dwelt, mentioned in Job - are they real or allegorical?

Clearly God is real, not allegorical but He is not a man.

An Unknowable God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Satan is allegorical.

Examples of angel according to Baha'i belief would include the Maid of Heaven that spoke to Baha'u'llah in the Siyal-Chal.

Maid of Heaven - Wikipedia

Analogous experiences are Moses with the burning Bush, Jesus with the Dove of heaven when Baptised by John the Baptist, and Muhammad with the angel Gabriel in the cave of Hira.

Farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrtherest

Pleased to hear it. I certainly have no interest in converting you to the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It looks like I was the only one (so far) to have voted "I don't know." I think Satan symbolizes the ultimate villain in the eyes of many, whether or not he literally exists (or existed).

For some reason, I was just recalling a scene in the movie Animal House where one of the characters is going through a moral struggle, humorously symbolized by a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other. They weren't actual sentient entities, but just different aspects of himself trying to come to terms. That may be what "Satan" actually is.

I don't know if there's any such thing as "good" or "evil" or any kind of "dark side of the force." It would seem reasonable, though, if one concludes that there is a powerful being of "good," then one might also conclude that there is an equal and opposite powerful being of "evil." But then, Satan is not really portrayed as God's "opposite," but rather portrayed as a rebellious subordinate who could be easily destroyed or imprisoned by God. The idea is that God has no "equal," and that "good" will ultimately prevail over "evil." But even that idea is questionable.

Thanks for your post. It’s an honest opinion to say I don’t know as none of us really know for certain beyond what we our Holy book tell us if we believe in any, or what we experience.

It sounds as if you are leaning towards Satan being symbolic and the argument about an equal but opposite force to God isn’t supported by any of the Abrahamic Faiths as you’ve noted.

I enjoyed watching animal house when it came out. I was a teenager at the time and it’s exactly the type of movie that appealed to many of us at that age.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I did not realize my real need for a Savior until I personally understood the real existence and malevolent nature of Satan actively affecting my life.

In what manner did Satan affect you? I believe in Christ but don’t believe in the devil.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe in a scheme of hierarchy
lesser and greater......in many facets

so...having a belief that Someone is the Almighty
there is an opposition

My God doesn't have a Name
so likewise the Adversary

am I wandering somewhere in between?

does seem that way

It sounds like an interesting place to be in life with beliefs that are somewhat Christian yet beyond any set theology.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh i had to add a comment. This topic is paramount in mental health in so many ways. Its where the emotional and intellectual get all tangled up.

I agree. I’ve met many people with mental health issues who appear unhealthily preoccupied by Satan.

 

[InChrist]

In what manner did Satan affect you? I believe in Christ but don’t believe in the devil.

Though I'd heard about the character of Satan I never gave the subject much thought. Then one night I had a nightmare, very real, in which Satan was the main character. The point was clearly to instill fear into me concerning leaving a false religion I was involved in. Nevertheless, I believe God used it to help me leave it behind, rather than stay out of fear. Over the period of a year or two I had a couple of other vivid, threatening satanic or demonic nightmares and one encounter with the demonic realm while fully awake. It wasn't until sometime later after reading the account of someone's in depth encounter with Satan and the demonic realm and this person's testimony and deliverance by Christ that I put the pieces together and understood the reality of Satan, saw his work and damage in my own life, and realized I was helpless against such a being and needed a Savior.

 

[nPeace]

In regards the Bible we need to consider:

- historic and textural context.

For example when Jesus said He was the way, the truth, the light and nobody should come to the father except through Him (John 14:6), we need to see this in the context of Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophecy in Judaism. Extrapolating the statement to make negative comment about Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism is problematic.

- Internal consistency within the text itself and consistency with other biblical texts.

For Baha'is we need to consider consistency with both the Baha'i writings and the Qur'an.

- Consistency with science and reason.

The YECs get themselves in trouble trying to prove the earth is young and less than 10,000 years old.

The Baha'i Teachings are clear:

Science and Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe

In regards the story of Adam and Eve, both Muslims and Baha'is believe Adam was an historic character and the first prophet of the Adamic cycle. Baha'is see most of the story as being allegorical though.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 122-126

So you look outside the Bible for interpreting it?
So in other words, you would interpret a text in what you agreed was the original word of God, based on other writings, which came centuries after, even though the Bible itself warned against false Messiahs?
I suppose that means you put trust in those writings to be from a prophet of God.
So if the writings of these men, are based on ideas of men, would this not result in a corrupt interpretation - creating a conflict with the text... as is the case with the identity of Satan, as well as other things, like the resurrection of Christ, and even his nature?

You also interpret the scriptures to fit modern science?
So say you interpreted a text based on science that may have been different a few years back, when that science changed to a new view, how would you resolve that... would you then interpret it to fit the new view?

The YECs applied an interpretation of being strictly literal.
If they were consistent with that application though, it should have helped them realize that something was wrong with how they understood it.
Looking at verse 4 of Genesis Chapter 2, we read...
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

Now reasonably, if Jehovah God made the heavens and the earth, in one 24 hour day, according to this verse, that would be both illogical, and contradictory. It would contradict Chapter 1.
So reasonably, it make sense that the use of the word day, in Genesis 1 and 2, cannot apply to a 24 hour time period, but an indefinite period. Other scriptures verify this by helping us to see that Jehovah does not measure days from our perspective. Psalm 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8

JWs believe the Bible should be used to interpret itself - not outside sources.
When outside sources are used, that leads to corruption, because these are normally based on human opinions ad ideas.
To reiterate...
JWs believe there should be a scriptural bases for understanding the Bible, and therefore harmony of the texts should be maintained. If there is conflict, then they strive to adjust their understanding to harmonize with the scriptures.

I have no idea what human characters in Job were real or otherwise. I didn't write the book and wasn't present when any of it took place. It doesn't matter how much was historic. It clearly has meaning beyond history as does the story of Adam and Eve.

Yes. We didn't write the Bible, therefore see above.
Understanding the Bible, I'm sure you agree, requires a lot of humility, which will help us understand it's message. The more humble and obedient we are, the more we understand.

Clearly God is real, not allegorical but He is not a man.

An Unknowable God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Satan is allegorical.

Examples of angel according to Baha'i belief would include the Maid of Heaven that spoke to Baha'u'llah in the Siyal-Chal.

Maid of Heaven - Wikipedia

Analogous experiences are Moses with the burning Bush, Jesus with the Dove of heaven when Baptised by John the Baptist, and Muhammad with the angel Gabriel in the cave of Hira.

Pleased to hear it. I certainly have no interest in converting you to the Baha'i Faith.

We have had so many claims of visionaries, haven't we?
I address this before. There is no need to go over it again.
However, I will repeat the scriptures.
Matthew 24
4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.
25 Look! I have forewarned you.
26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
[Don't believe them because, - please pay close attention - here is why...]
27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Hebrews 1
1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways.
2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

Revelation 1:1-3
1 . . .A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near.

Revelation 22:18-21
18 “I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll. 20 “The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” 21 May the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus be with the holy ones.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So you look outside the Bible for interpreting it?

All the arguments you make against the Baha'is, the Jews could make against the Christians. We both agree that Christ had the authority to interpret the Tanakh. A great deal has happened in the last 2,000+ years since Christ was born. Baha'is regard Muhammad and Baha'u'llah as equals to Christ.

So in other words, you would interpret a text in what you agreed was the original word of God, based on other writings, which came centuries after, even though the Bible itself warned against false Messiahs?

The Bible also warned against rejecting and turning away from His prophets and Messengers. So on the one hand we need to avoid following false prophets but on the other hand follow true prophets.

We also need to avoid false and misleading teachers.

Charles Taze Russell - Wikipedia

I suppose that means you put trust in those writings to be from a prophet of God.

That is correct.

So if the writings of these men, are based on ideas of men, would this not result in a corrupt interpretation - creating a conflict with the text... as is the case with the identity of Satan, as well as other things, like the resurrection of Christ, and even his nature?

If they are based on God's revelation then the Baha'i Faith will flourish as Christianity and Islam have. If not then it will fade into the mists of history.

You also interpret the scriptures to fit modern science?
So say you interpreted a text based on science that may have been different a few years back, when that science changed to a new view, how would you resolve that... would you then interpret it to fit the new view?

This is no new thing. Consider how a heliocentric model of the universe was rejected because it contradicted scripture. When Copernicus and Galileo convincingly demonstrated the earth revolved around the sun, the church rejected this notion. Eventually they came around. Their understanding of scripture needed to change and adapt with new knowledge.

The YECs applied an interpretation of being strictly literal.
If they were consistent with that application though, it should have helped them realize that something was wrong with how they understood it.
Looking at verse 4 of Genesis Chapter 2, we read...
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

The answer to scientific questions about the age of the earth rests with science. The Bible does not tell us when the earth was created.

JWs believe the Bible should be used to interpret itself - not outside sources.
When outside sources are used, that leads to corruption, because these are normally based on human opinions ad ideas.
To reiterate...
JWs believe there should be a scriptural bases for understanding the Bible, and therefore harmony of the texts should be maintained. If there is conflict, then they strive to adjust their understanding to harmonize with the scriptures.

I appreciate that the JWs go to a great deal of effort to learn the bible. Such efforts will always fall short, just as the most learned Jewish scholar can not properly understand God's plan without knowledge and belief in Christ.

Yes. We didn't write the Bible, therefore see above.
Understanding the Bible, I'm sure you agree, requires a lot of humility, which will help us understand it's message. The more humble and obedient we are, the more we understand.

I agree.

We have had so many claims of visionaries, haven't we?
I address this before. There is no need to go over it again.

The visionaries the Baha'is accept in the last two thousand years are in regards to Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Its hardly exhaustive. In 50 years the numbers of Muslims will outnumber Christians.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

However, I will repeat the scriptures.
Matthew 24

Being able to read scripture is one thing. Being able to interpret it another. That is where we disagree.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

I don't believe satan or devil is a entity, force, symbolism of evil, or however defined. In (Buddhism) The Dharma it speaks of a god name mara. Mara pretends he is Brahma to trick The Buddha to believe in god and that everything is fixed or eternal. He tells The Buddha that life by definition is fixed. (I don't know what that means in Hinduism, though. Brahma is both in Hinduism and Buddhism but the emphasis on them is different).

Here is Mara posing as Brahma to trick The Buddha. Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation I was reading some websites that explains Mata as a personification of death. Since The Buddha taught everything changes I'd assume no attachment doesn't mean death as in lights. I translate that as death because after we release attachment there is nothing else left.

How I read it (from Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation) is Mara, unlike the devil, is not evil nor a external force tricking The Buddha. It's just an analogy of the human mind trying to make things fixed, like an eternal soul, when there is no such thing.

Here is a good short definition of mara Mara - Buddhist Demon of Death and Rebirth | Mythology.net Some see Indian cosmology literal others metaphoric. Unlike abrahamic, it's not emphasised the nature of the cosmology but what it means and how it relates to the person in everyday life.


But, that's how I see it. It's a personification of the mind trying to keep attachment while the other mind or one focused in meditation and emptiness etc is experiencing a turmoil trying not be swayed by viewing life as fixed. Another aspect of mara is believing there is an eternal fixed soul. The Buddha didn't confirm such things as what's after death Uttiya Sutta: To Uttiya and the nature of the soul The Three Basic Facts of Existence: III. Egolessness (Anatta)

Mara tries to trick The Buddha mind that we have a fixed unchanging soul that represent who we are apart from our mind and body. In christianity, there is a soul and the devil temps the persons spirit away from god. It's not mind but spirit. Mara, on the other hand, temps mind and not spirit.

I agree with @Marcion that it's dangerous to compare western and eastern spiritual concepts. This above is how I see things. I wish I knew more but I haven't studied Indian cosmology.

Oh. It's Mara in buddhism not Maha if comparing it to a devil of some sort.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I get tired of people blaming Satan for their own choices and shortcomiings.

I want to throw up that the Pope is blame the present Church scandal on Satan. The scandal in the Catholic church is because priests abusing children, bishops covering it up, and Rome covering up the cover up.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't believe satan or devil is a entity, force, symbolism of evil, or however defined.

Then how do you account for the stories about Satan in the Bible or the account given by the Catholic Church?

In (Buddhism) The Dharma it speaks of a god name mara. Mara pretends he is Brahma to trick The Buddha to believe in god and that everything is fixed or eternal. He tells The Buddha that life by definition is fixed. (I don't know what that means in Hinduism, though. Brahma is both in Hinduism and Buddhism but the emphasis on them is different).

Its useful to have a Buddhist perspective. You can say its dangerous to mix Christian and Buddhist concepts but OTOH there are definite parallels with deception, illusion and trickery.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Then how do you account for the stories about Satan in the Bible or the account given by the Catholic Church?

What do you mean? I don't read every religious story and see it true. We have stories but what do we experience today that mimics the stories Only 2000 some odd years ago? Did satan just poof from thin air?

What do you mean? Do I consider the stories true because they are written religiously?

Think about it, though. If you never heard of any religion at all and someone gave you a story of satan or devil tempting a man, snakes, and people turning to salt, would your first gut response is to think these things true?

I honestly never looked into the story of satan. I was fortunate not to experience that part from The Church. It does vary. Our church is more l liberal. I've gone to Latin Mass and a couple more traditional church and I can see why people form ill opinions about the church.

What do you mean, though?

Its useful to have a Buddhist perspective. You can say its dangerous to mix Christian and Buddhist concepts but OTOH there are definite parallels with deception, illusion and trickery

I think a lot of religions have the adversy concept. As for the details and what concepts mean, it's dangerous to combine or compare them. But as concepts, yes. A lot of things we do positive life always bring an "adversary". For example, I went to the ATM this morning, accidently left my card in the machine, has to deactivate my account, and travel across town to the bank to get a new card. Some say satan disrupt my plans (and people do say it's satan on many of life's surprises), to me life just knocked of off balance.

Adapting to chance is the key. I see the use of satan especially in times where people think people with epilepsy have demons in us (I kid you not. Now we have the holy spirit. Personal experience). But since its written does it make it true?

We can differientiate a seizure from demons today, but back then??

It's good to learn from the past, but other than that sounds like a balancing act taking the past more spiritual than the present.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What do you mean? I don't read every religious story and see it true. We have stories but what do we experience today that mimics the stories Only 2000 some odd years ago? Did satan just poof from thin air?

What do you mean? Do I consider the stories true because they are written religiously?

Think about it, though. If you never heard of any religion at all and someone gave you a story of satan or devil tempting a man, snakes, and people turning to salt, would your first gut response is to think these things true?

I honestly never looked into the story of satan. I was fortunate not to experience that part from The Church. It does vary. Our church is more l liberal. I've gone to Latin Mass and a couple more traditional church and I can see why people form ill opinions about the church.

What do you mean, though?

All I was asking is for your opinion about Satan that has been part of the traditions of the Catholic Church you were part of for four years and in your Christians days before that. It sounded as if you didn't have any opinion at all. You have an opinion about God. He doesn't exist. You appear to have an opinion about Satan too. He doesn't exist. That's all I meant.

I think a lot of religions have the adversy concept. As for the details and what concepts mean, it's dangerous to combine or compare them. But as concepts, yes. A lot of things we do positive life always bring an "adversary". For example, I went to the ATM this morning, accidently left my card in the machine, has to deactivate my account, and travel across town to the bank to get a new card. Some say satan disrupt my plans (and people do say it's satan on many of life's surprises), to me life just knocked of off balance.

Adapting to chance is the key. I see the use of satan especially in times where people think people with epilepsy have demons in us (I kid you not. Now we have the holy spirit. Personal experience). But since its written does it make it true?

We can differientiate a seizure from demons today, but back then??

It's good to learn from the past, but other than that sounds like a balancing act taking the past more spiritual than the present.

That is true. In the Christian West we used to consider epilepsy a sign of evil spirits or demons. Some Christians still think that way. Some Christians view some mental illness as being from evil spirits. That seems like a dangerous idea to me. Instead of finding psychological or medical explanations we externalise and blame Satan.

I don't think the loss of your ATM card had anything to do with Satan btw.

Why do you think it is 'dangerous' to compare Eastern and Western concepts?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Haha.

All I was asking is for your opinion about Satan that has been part of the traditions of the Catholic Church you were part of for four years and in your Christians days before that. It sounded as if you didn't have any opinion at all. You have an opinion about God. He doesn't exist. You appear to have an opinion about Satan too. He doesn't exist. That's all I meant.

I wasn't introduced to satan in the Catholic Church. Our soul focus was the Eucharist, private and communal devotion and worship, importance of prayer, sacraments, and intercession of the saints. Id assume satan is a personification of how one is inflicted guilt based on mortal or venial sin. I guess the older folks would have a literal view of satan. I don't know what they teach in catholic grade school. Converts have a different perspective than indoctrinates. There are pros and cons on that.

On RF I don't talk much about my experience with the Christian view of god. A lot of anticatholic christians tell me I never was Christian. Being part of the Church put practitioners on the spotlight from Catholics supporting priest abusers (which I didn't know until RF), praying to "dead" people, and judging Catholics as a whole based on passed experiences, news, and bias. So, I don't talk much about it intimately. With other Catholics, yes. We underatand it. But that's about it.

That is true. In the Christian West we used to consider epilepsy a sign of evil spirits or demons. Some Christians still think that way. Some Christians view some mental illness as being from evil spirits. That seems like a dangerous idea to me. Instead of finding psychological or medical explanations we externalise and blame Satan.

Yeah. As a doctor, I'm sure that probably makes you eyes roll. But why would their views on demons and spirits be the thing of the past yet people today believe all sorts of things about christ and the prophets that seem as off as believing people with seizures have spirits. I can see the lesson involved but beyond that...

I don't think the loss of your ATM card had anything to do with Satan btw.

You may be surprised with people who disagree with you. From lost car keys to finding an extra penny near the vender machine when their five cents short.

Why do you think it is 'dangerous' to compare Eastern and Western concepts?

Same ol' reason. But my point, though, is you can only compare the two but so much. You can say blue and orange are colors but to say they are the same color is totally different. I'm not a syncretic so...

 

[nPeace]

All the arguments you make against the Baha'is, the Jews could make against the Christians. We both agree that Christ had the authority to interpret the Tanakh. A great deal has happened in the last 2,000+ years since Christ was born. Baha'is regard Muhammad and Baha'u'llah as equals to Christ.

All the arguments you make for Baha'u'llah, or Bab, are not supported in scriptures. I'm going by what we both agreed on - the original word of God. If writings, or teachings centuries later contradict the original, why do you decide to forsake the original in favor of the latter?

The Bible also warned against rejecting and turning away from His prophets and Messengers. So on the one hand we need to avoid following false prophets but on the other hand follow true prophets.

We also need to avoid false and misleading teachers.

Charles Taze Russell - Wikipedia

Thank God we agree on that.
What about C. T. Russel?

If they are based on God's revelation then the Baha'i Faith will flourish as Christianity and Islam have. If not then it will fade into the mists of history.

Why do you think that.
According to the Bible, they will flourish, before they are all annihilated together.
Thousands of different religions exist, with more being added. Matthew 13:24-30; Psalm 92:7

This is no new thing. Consider how a heliocentric model of the universe was rejected because it contradicted scripture. When Copernicus and Galileo convincingly demonstrated the earth revolved around the sun, the church rejected this notion. Eventually they came around. Their understanding of scripture needed to change and adapt with new knowledge.

The scriptures never said anything about a heliocentric model of the universe.
Notice it was religion that got involved with that debate - making claims that contradicted the new knowledge.
Are you saying this is okay because others did it?

The answer to scientific questions about the age of the earth rests with science. The Bible does not tell us when the earth was created.

There you go. You confirmed it.
Where the Bible is silent, there is no need to cause unnecessary debates and conflict.

I appreciate that the JWs go to a great deal of effort to learn the bible. Such efforts will always fall short, just as the most learned Jewish scholar can not properly understand God's plan without knowledge and belief in Christ.

You are not saying that studying the Bible hinders one from knowledge and belief in Christ, are you?
JWs believe that it is through a study of the Bible, that one gains an accurate knowledge of both God and Christ, and in fact, cone to know of the Grand Purpose of God, leading to their having the responsibility to accept the commission as ambassadors of Christ, just as Paul was. (Ephesians 6:20)
2 Corinthians 5:20, 21
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.” 21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness.
Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; 1 Timothy 2:3, 4

The visionaries the Baha'is accept in the last two thousand years are in regards to Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Its hardly exhaustive. In 50 years the numbers of Muslims will outnumber Christians.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

What do numbers mean? What do numbers demonstrate?

Being able to read scripture is one thing. Being able to interpret it another. That is where we disagree.

We disagree that being able to read scripture is one thing, and being able to interpret it is another?
You disagree with that? I don't.

 

[Dawnofhope]

All the arguments you make for Baha'u'llah, or Bab, are not supported in scriptures. I'm going by what we both agreed on - the original word of God. If writings, or teachings centuries later contradict the original, why do you decide to forsake the original in favor of the latter?

You have been presented with many scriptures and arguments that demonstrate the Bible does support the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Thank God we agree on that.
What about C. T. Russel?

So your founder was corrupt! I think you are in denial, which is really the only way to cope with being in a faith that has been so clearly discredited.

Lets go back to basics. Whenever anyone in your church has made a prediction its failed.

Deuteronomy 18:18-22

Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

You change the policies of your faith

Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

Why should anyone believe one prediction or interpretation from the Jehovah witnesses is worth the paper they are written on?

Why do you think that.
According to the Bible, they will flourish, before they are all annihilated together.
Thousands of different religions exist, with more being added. Matthew 13:24-30; Psalm 92:7

The tares are false Teachings within Christianity.
Matthew 25:31-46

The scriptures never said anything about a heliocentric model of the universe.
Notice it was religion that got involved with that debate - making claims that contradicted the new knowledge.
Are you saying this is okay because others did it?

The scriptures don't say anything about what JWs believe regarding future events. Its the same old story with Christians projecting their fantasies and wishful thinking onto scripture. That of course is why Christianity is so hopelessly divided. One group invents an interpretation of their own imagination. Another group comes along and opposes it with more false theology. Soon Christianity is filled with such confusion and discord that its light is completely obscured.

Matthew 24:29

You are not saying that studying the Bible hinders one from knowledge and belief in Christ, are you?
JWs believe that it is through a study of the Bible, that one gains an accurate knowledge of both God and Christ, and in fact, cone to know of the Grand Purpose of God, leading to their having the responsibility to accept the commission as ambassadors of Christ, just as Paul was. (Ephesians 6:20)
2 Corinthians 5:20, 21
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.” 21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness.
Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; 1 Timothy 2:3, 4

Many of the thousands of denominations within Christianity claim to have the truth, to be biblically based, that their interpretation is the right way. The JWs just takes it to another level. Of course the JWs see themselves as ambassadors for Christ. I don't, nor do any Christians outside your denomination.

What do numbers mean? What do numbers demonstrate?

Islam is a religion that God has blessed and allowed to flourish just as He has with Christianity. You are ignoring the elephant in the room. Its not Satan! They are both religions founded on God. However they are both hopelessly and irreparably out of touch with the modern world and a new Messenger from God is necessary. Both religions have the promise of One who will renew religion with the Return of Christ for the Christians and Mahdi prophecy for the Muslims. The Baha'is believe our Faith to fulfil those prophecies and our Teachings suited the era in history we currently live in.

 

[nPeace]

You have been presented with many scriptures and arguments that demonstrate the Bible does support the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Scriptures? No. Arguments? Yes. More precisely, arguments from the Bab, and Bahaullah writings interpreting particular verses, that said nothing to support Bab and Bahaullah, or Jesus returning as the latter.

However, there are numerous scriptures that contradict the ideas of Bab and Bahaullah. For example, the one I referred to before (2 Corinthians 6:14) which you didn't comment on mistakenly concluded that I was calling your faith by another name.

So your founder was corrupt! I think you are in denial, which is really the only way to cope with being in a faith that has been so clearly discredited.

Lets go back to basics. Whenever anyone in your church has made a prediction its failed.

Deuteronomy 18:18-22

Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

You change the policies of your faith

Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

Why should anyone believe one prediction or interpretation from the Jehovah witnesses is worth the paper they are written on?

Firstly.

The information is too laughable to be funny.
Whoever the editor is definitely unfamiliar with facts. I use Wikipedia too, but it's not that reliable, especially when it comes to certain topics. Lol.

Since I don't see how this is relevant, as 1. C. T. Russell is not my founder, nor the founder of my faith; 2. C. T. Russell was not a prophet, nor claimed to be; 3. The brethren always used the Bible as the source of study and understanding, and did not write books claiming to be inspired by God.
Since they never made such claimed, it is expected that as students of the Bible, trying humbly to understand the Bible, and obey the Bible, they would make mistakes, which they are humble enough to acknowledge.
They don't claim to be infallible. Nor do they claim to be able to interpret all of God's word perfectly.

Am I to believe that this is the Bahai's feeling, that God has endowed them alone, with the gift of interpretation?

Too bad you chose to accept information that is almost totally inaccurate.
I will say though too, that your statements are false.
Whenever means every time, and you cannot verify that to be true, as it is not.
What do you mean by change the policies. That's quite broad, So I can't say you have that right either.

1914 was and still is a date that was understood to be a prophetic date. In the early years, it was understood what that date meant, but there were also mistaken expectations, that went with it. Adjustments were made. I don't call this a policy change. However, that year was bang on, in predicting the end of the appointed times of the nations (Luke 21:24), and the sign of Christ presence, as he foretold in Matthew 24.

As is the case with the Bible, people read stuff, and misinterpret it.
This is what I see, when I look at the references in that link - a lot of misunderstandings.
Please, see for yourself, if you like. Part 1—Flashes of Light—Great and Small — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The tares are false Teachings within Christianity.
Matthew 25:31-46

Teachings within Christianity?
That may be according to another Bahai interpretation.
However, according to Jesus, and the Bible, that is not the case.
Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen. . .

The importance of using the scriptures to understand it's interpretation, rather than relying on contradictory sources, can't be emphasized more than it has been.
If we are repeatedly shown to be wrong, by the scriptures themselves, we should humbly concede.
I don't expect that though.

The scriptures don't say anything about what JWs believe regarding future events. Its the same old story with Christians projecting their fantasies and wishful thinking onto scripture. That of course is why Christianity is so hopelessly divided. One group invents an interpretation of their own imagination. Another group comes along and opposes it with more false theology. Soon Christianity is filled with such confusion and discord that its light is completely obscured.

Matthew 24:29

Not sure what this is about, except it seems an attempt to make as though Bahai is different and unique, but if a sect breaks away, it is only different in it's teachings, but still part of the system. If it tries to have one foot in one system and the other foot in another system, that seems to me, worst than being in one system. It definitely doesn't stand alone and separate.

Jesus and the apostles spoke of this disunity, but they did not identify his followers as being part of it.
Acts 20:28-30
28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Matthew 7:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3, 4; 2 Peter 2:1

I find it funny how you speak about it though, as though it's your wishful thinking.
Do you think the Christian faith Jesus started will end? How could it, when Jesus and his apostles said it wouldn't?
Matthew 24:14
14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 28:19, 20
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

All the nations are receiving a witness by Jesus' true followers - Christians, despite the confusion existing in all religions.

Many of the thousands of denominations within Christianity claim to have the truth, to be biblically based, that their interpretation is the right way. The JWs just takes it to another level. Of course the JWs see themselves as ambassadors for Christ. I don't, nor do any Christians outside your denomination.

I don't know why you choose to single out Christianity, as though the breakaway sect of the Bahai is somehow exempt from claiming to know the truth, and claiming that their interpretation is the right one, and separate from divisive religion.
How many people don't see the Bahais as a false religion... Zero, do you think?

Islam is a religion that God has blessed and allowed to flourish just as He has with Christianity. You are ignoring the elephant in the room. Its not Satan! They are both religions founded on God. However they are both hopelessly and irreparably out of touch with the modern world and a new Messenger from God is necessary. Both religions have the promise of One who will renew religion with the Return of Christ for the Christians and Mahdi prophecy for the Muslims. The Baha'is believe our Faith to fulfil those prophecies and our Teachings suited the era in history we currently live in.

I so love how you speak of Bahai.
Apparently I am not the one missing the elephant in the room.