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How important is choose a Pantheon?

Lorgar-Aurelian

Active Member
Let us say I was interested in becoming a pagan. How important is the pantheon one such as myself would choose? What kind of resources could I get to learn more about paganism? Could I use my own ideas of gods or do I need to rely on an older model? Any information would be appreciated.

Also the title got messed up but I didn't notice until more recently, it's supposed to be How important is choosing a pantheon, not how important is choose a pantheon.
 
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The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Let us say I was interested in becoming a pagan. How important is the pantheon one such as myself would choose? What kind of resources could I get to learn more about paganism? Could I use my own ideas of gods or do I need to rely on an older model? Any information would be appreciated.

Well it depends, really. If you're determined to worship the Chaos Gods (whose existence only makes sense in a Warhammer context) then I get the feeling people will think you're calling yourself Pagan to make fun & mock and so won't take you all that seriously. You'd be straining the credulity not only of Pagans themselves but of who can honestly be considered Pagan.
 

Lorgar-Aurelian

Active Member
Well it depends, really. If you're determined to worship the Chaos Gods (whose existence only makes sense in a Warhammer context) then I get the feeling people will think you're calling yourself Pagan to make fun & mock and so won't take you all that seriously. You'd be straining the credulity not only of Pagans themselves but of who can honestly be considered Pagan.
Then how important is it to choose an existing pantheon and how would one do so?
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
If an established pantheon resonates and synergizes with your Weltanschauung, embrace and utilize it. If not... be your own prophet, use your own ideas of God(s)- drawing inspiration from your own experiences as well as the world around you- and see where your spiritual-religious thoughts and ambition take you.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Then how important is it to choose an existing pantheon and how would one do so?

Not that important. You don't need to worship an entire pantheon; some people worship gods which don't fit into a pantheon at all. The Wiccan Horned God & Goddess leap to mind. Though I suppose it could be argued they're a pantheon of two... But I won't. Some people don't even worship gods. The Tao is a non-anthroporphised facet of the Universe. Some say it's the First Cause - older than the gods.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
How important is it to choose a pantheon? It isn't (unless you are planing to be a recon). It honestly surprises me how much this question still gets asked. Polytheism has never had an exclusivist mindset of "you must worship these gods and only these gods." If you choose to be exclusivist like that, it is by choice, not by dictum.

Good book on Pagan theology to use as a starting point (I wish a book like this existed when I started) - Seeking the Mystery: An Introduction to Pagan Theologies.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
You can choose a pantheon or mix and match. It's all the same beings, just different cultural interpretation.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I totally agree with @Quintessence 's recommendation of Seeking the Mystery.

When I moved from Christianity to atheist/agnostic to animism, it was largely because none of the goddesses/gods resonated with me...meaning, I did not experience them, nor could I see rationally myself believing in them or worshiping them. While some are interesting to read about, it's all an intellectual exercise for my part.

I don't do God or gods because any such construction or system of them does not match my experiences, and I am certain that the models I could create from my experiences would not be accurate. I therefore choose to be an animist, without deity or deities, because I don't really see a need for them, and I certainly haven't experienced any.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Let us say I was interested in becoming a pagan. How important is the pantheon one such as myself would choose? What kind of resources could I get to learn more about paganism? Could I use my own ideas of gods or do I need to rely on an older model? Any information would be appreciated.

Also the title got messed up but I didn't notice until more recently, it's supposed to be How important is choosing a pantheon, not how important is choose a pantheon.

Depends on how you're using "pagan." Modern paganism is more precisely labeled "Neopaganism" as the word "paganism" itself often is broad, generically referring to practices that Neopagans can be influenced by (but not always) and to varying degree. E.g., some Neopagans engage in revivals and reconstructions that are strongly influenced by ancient practices while others engage in wholly modern practices that might or might not draw inspiration from earlier practices.

Then there is that not all Neopagans have practices that include such things as polytheism or anthropomorphic deities. In which case, the topic of pantheons doesn't apply.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What makes me a false polytheist?

Nothing - I don't think I've ever used the phrase "false polytheist," and I'm quite sure I did not call you such. I simply do not label theological ideas like "all gods are one god" or "all gods with this domain are really the same god" as polytheism. I find that to be an inaccurate characterization. That sort of soft monotheism and lumpy-together-ism needs it's own term. Perhaps archetypalism would be a better term for it.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Nothing - I don't think I've ever used the phrase "false polytheist," and I'm quite sure I did not call you such. I simply do not label theological ideas like "all gods are one god" or "all gods with this domain are really the same god" as polytheism. I find that to be an inaccurate characterization. That sort of soft monotheism and lumpy-together-ism needs it's own term. The dominance of monotheism in the West has made this lumpy-together-ism rather common even in contemporary Paganism, for better or worse. On the whole, it seems to me it would be better called "archetypalism" not polytheism?

Polytheism is just an acceptance of multiple gods though. It violates traditional paganism sure, but not polytheism.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Polytheism is just an acceptance of multiple gods though. It violates traditional paganism sure, but not polytheism.

Hah... if only defining polytheism was that simple. Regardless, like I said before, this isn't the space or the place. Back to the OP!
 

Cassandra

Active Member
Not that important. You don't need to worship an entire pantheon; some people worship gods which don't fit into a pantheon at all. The Wiccan Horned God & Goddess leap to mind. Though I suppose it could be argued they're a pantheon of two... But I won't. Some people don't even worship gods. The Tao is a non-anthropomorphized facet of the Universe. Some say it's the First Cause - older than the gods.
Tao is the originally same as Hindu Dharm, equally difficult to understand and described as Truth, Path, Duty, Proper Conduct, Inner Nature, Natural Order, etc.

Why is it so difficult to understand? Because you need to be truly Dharmic to truly understand Dharm, which makes the understanding of Dharm subjective. Dharm can certainly be anthropormorphized even on different levels.

Satanism would be adharm (non-dharmic). Adharm is also anthropomorphized in beings like Satan, Set, Loki, Prometheus, Lucifer. Azazel, but their devout worshipers would not conceive it as Adharm, but rather view it as Dharm.

That is why they are trickster Gods, they spin a mind-altering captivating reality from which it is very hard to escape.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
That is why they are trickster Gods, they spin a mind-altering captivating reality from which it is very hard to escape.
Prometheus is not a trickster deity and is not viewed negatively. Maybe he was a bit brash and that was what he was punished by Zeus for (he was later freed by Heracles), but he was not some "devil" figure, which Paganism doesn't have. Lucifer was originally the Roman title of Phōsphoros, the Greek Morning Star (Venus in its morning view), Son of Eos (Aurora in Latin). They have nothing to do with Satan, Loki or Set. (I would argue that Loki and Set don't belong in the same classification as Satan, but anyway.)
 

Cassandra

Active Member
Prometheus is not a trickster deity and is not viewed negatively. Maybe he was a bit brash and that was what he was punished by Zeus for (he was later freed by Heracles), but he was not some "devil" figure, which Paganism doesn't have. Lucifer was originally the Roman title of Phōsphoros, the Greek Morning Star (Venus in its morning view), Son of Eos (Aurora in Latin). They have nothing to do with Satan, Loki or Set. (I would argue that Loki and Set don't belong in the same classification as Satan, but anyway.)
Interesting,

I read this before especially from Satanists. If I may ask, what gives you the idea that Prometheus is a good God and not a trickster God?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Interesting,

I read this before especially from Satanists. If I may ask, what gives you the idea that Prometheus is a good God and not a trickster God?
He is worshiped in Hellenic religion and was worshiped in antiquity:

From Wiki:

"Athenian religious dedication and observance
It is understandable that since Prometheus was considered a Titan and not one of the Olympian gods that there would be an absence of evidence, with the exception of Athens, for the direct religious devotion to his worship. Despite his importance to the myths and imaginative literature of ancient Greece, the religious cult of Prometheus during the Archaic and Classical periods seems to have been limited.[38] Writing in the 2nd century AD, the satirist Lucian points out that while temples to the major Olympians were everywhere, none to Prometheus is to be seen.[39]

340px-Afrodi6.jpg

Heracles freeing Prometheus, relief from the Temple of Aphrodite at Aphrodisias
Athens was the exception. The altar of Prometheus in the grove of the Academy was the point of origin for several significant processions and other events regularly observed on the Athenian calendar. For the Panathenaic festival, arguably the most important civic festival at Athens, a torch race began at the altar, which was located outside the sacred boundary of the city, and passed through the Kerameikos, the district inhabited by potters and other artisans who regarded Prometheus and Hephaestus as patrons.[40] The race then traveled to the heart of the city, where it kindled the sacrificial fire on the altar of Athena on the Acropolisto conclude the festival.[41] These footraces took the form of relays in which teams of runners passed off a flaming torch. According to Pausanias (2nd century AD), the torch relay, called lampadedromia or lampadephoria, was first instituted at Athens in honor of Prometheus.[42]

By the Classical period, the races were run by ephebes also in honor of Hephaestus and Athena.[43] Prometheus' association with fire is the key to his religious significance[38] and to the alignment with Athena and Hephaestus that was specific to Athens and its "unique degree of cultic emphasis" on honoring technology.[44] The festival of Prometheus was the Prometheia. The wreaths worn symbolized the chains of Prometheus.[45]

Pausanias recorded a few other religious sites in Greece devoted to Prometheus. Both Argos and Opous claimed to be Prometheus' final resting place, each erecting a tomb in his honor. The Greek city of Panopeus had a cult statue that was supposed to honor Prometheus for having created the human race there.[37]"

Where are you getting that he is a trickster deity? Even if he is, that doesn't mean that he would necessarily be excluded from worship.
 

Cassandra

Active Member
My view,

When someone warns you, watch out for this guy, he is a real trickster, fooling everyone. Is your reaction one of disbelief and saying, I spoke to him yesterday and he really seems like a nice guy. Well the point is, he would not even be a trickster to begin with if that wasn't the case.

Of course there are isolated people and groups that worship such Gods, but one should rather ask why so few people do that. And when people stop worshiping Gods, one might also ask, why did this happens.

Why do these trickster Gods fool people? Because they do nice things at times. But one may want to keep in mind that is exactly how the most horrible of all people operate. They do good things to win peoples trust only to betray it again. And then they do it again and again. It is this lack of long term consistency in their very calculated behavior that is so typical for really evil characters. People today are more gullible then ever because they rationalize rather then use their good senses. They are not spiritual any more. They can no longer distinguish a good spirit from a bad one, without some factual proof and a lot of reasoning. They lost the subtle senses and mind and are prone to believe clever stories. We even turned fooling into a way of life and call it salesmanship.

Now it seems to me that the only thing most people know about Prometheus is that he stole the fire from the Gods and gave it to Man, and thus allowed Man to become a creative inventor, because people mistakenly believe it was the spark of higher inspiration he gave them.

But they never realize that this is only one part in a much longer chain of events. First we need to understand that there was a war between the Titans and the Olympians. The head of the Titans was Cronus and he was by the Greek considered the God that brought evil into the world by overthrowing and castrating his father Uranus and eating all his children to prevent the same happening to him. But one can not stop fate and he lost his rule to his son Zeus, leader of the Olympians.

The Titans and their children were then punished and thrown into the Tartarus. Prometheus who was the son of Iapetus the brother of Cronus, escaped this fate. Why? Because he is not called Prometheus for nothing, he thinks ahead, he is a schemer, and he can look into the future. He can see what is going to happen. He could see the Titans would lose the battle and thus stayed neutral and out of the fight. That is why is was not punished. But being a Titan he bore a grudge against the Olympians and was looking for revenge for what the Olympians had done to the Titans.

His chance came when Zeus ordered him to create a new human race. In the war of the Titans the previous human race and animals had been eradicated by the tremendous forces unleashed by the Gods.

Now Prometheus did a real cunning evil thing. He gave all special talents to the (other) animals and nothing to the humans. When he came to the humans, he said, sorry I have nothing left for you (but gave them fire). That ensured that the human race would always be wanting and created a permanent dissatisfaction that would undermine his relationship with the Gods.

What most people do not know it that the humans already had fire at this point in time! But having no special talents they found it hard to catch enough meat. And the little meat they found, they would sacrifice to the Gods. They would burn it so the pleasant odors would reach the roam of the Gods on the mount Olympus. But it left the humans a poor hard existence.

But whose fault was that? Not the Gods, but the cunning Prometheus you regard as friend of humans. But then Prometheus did the next cunning thing to further deteriorate relations between God and Man. Because like all trickster Gods he was terribly jealous on the other Gods who received the worship of the humans.

So he pretended to take pity on the humans and said to them: This life is too hard on you, let me help you. I will divide the meat in two portions and let the Gods choose one for sacrifice and the other is then for you to eat. The humans agreed and the Gods also agreed to this proposal.

But then Prometheus did the next conniving thing. In stead of creating two equal piles, he created one with inedible stuff but covered with a thin layer of juicy gravy (the most wanted stuff). In the other pile he put all the juicy good meat and covered it with inedible stuff. Then he let Zeus choose. Zeus chose the wrong pile and this created enormous rage, as Zeus not only realized he was cheated out of the good meat but also made a fool. This of course was Prometheus intention to create further discord between the Gods and Man.

And behold, the Gods took revenge on Man. They took away the fire they relied on to cook and roast their meat. This left them in the same dire straights again. Now Prometheus cunningly presented himself again as the savior to the human race. He stole (back) the fire from the Gods! (The one part that all people seem to know).

This may look like a heroic deed, but it was again very calculated. We have to remember Prometheus could see into the future. He could see he would be punished but also that he would be freed again from punishment. What he could also see is that this would further escalate the downturn in the relation between the Gods and Man he was so jealous of.

The Gods were even more enraged, they punished Prometheus to be tied to a rock and having eaten his liver by day by a bird and let it grow back during the night, until he was finally freed by Hercules. The human beings corrupted by Prometheus became so evil they even started to eat other humans, the biggest imaginable crime for the Olympians. That is why the Gods decided to punish them first with all kinds of suffering (box of Pandora) and later even extinction (The flood), but those are other stories).

When you know the whole story, you may now understand why they call these Gods trickster Gods as they fool both God and Man, and pit them against each other. And why they seem to do nice things one time and evil things next time. It is like dealing with psychopaths. They have a sick mind that is dominated by feelings of jealousy and revenge, but cunningly hide that and plot well ahead to fool everybody. But when caught, like a psychopath they show remorse and offer to mend things, but often only executing the next step their plan.

People used to be more clever than modern man and understand that these stories warn us for these evil characters. For in real life people are never acting all good or all bad but show a mix. That is why it is so hard to distinguish clever evil people from flawed good people. We need stories with examples to recognize their character.

The truly evil people always play into weaknesses of Man and try grow these by offering temptations that they can not refuse. They are like drug dealers offering free drugs until people are truly hooked. As a drug addict once remarked: You know what brings addicts back to drug dealers all the time? It is the warm happy welcome they give, always a smile.

The problem with Abrahamic religion is that they create a black and white cartoon picture of good and bad that makes the true evil hard to recognize. It makes people blind to evil. Thus also evil pastors can get control over the flock and pitch them against innocent people while they abuse and exploit them. And thus people from Abrahamic background often find it hard to understand Pagan mythology. They simply miss the level of of sophisticated thinking that is needed to understand the stories.

But that is just my view.

Now tell me again why Prometheus is a good God
or maybe why Hannibal Lecter is not so bad either,
as he is a perfect gentleman 99% of the time.
Yes all beings have a function in Nature, even the evil ones,
but theirs is not the role we want uphold as one we want to follow,
no more than than we want to embrace disease,
even if disease belongs to Nature too.
 
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