Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
That's doesn't explain as to what part of Jesus Christ was human and what part was God.
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how human was Jesus?
- Thread starter Desert Snake
- Start date
That's doesn't explain as to what part of Jesus Christ was human and what part was God.
and the word was God;
not made a God, as he is said here after to be made flesh; nor constituted or appointed a God, or a God by office; but truly and properly God, in the highest sense of the word, as appears from the names by which he is called; as Jehovah, God, our, your, their, and my God, God with us, the mighty God, God over all, the great God, the living God, the true God, and eternal life; and from his perfections, and the whole fulness of the Godhead that dwells in him, as independence, eternity, immutability, omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence; and from his works of creation and providence, his miracles, the work of redemption, his forgiving sins, the resurrection of himself and others from the dead, and the administration of the last judgment; and from the worship given him, as prayer to him, faith in him, and the performance of baptism in his name: nor is it any objection to the proper deity of Christ, that the article is here wanting; since when the word is applied to the Father, it is not always used, and even in this chapter, ( John 1:6 John 1:13 John 1:18 ) and which shows, that the word "God", is not the subject, but the predicate of this proposition, as we render it: so the Jews often use the word of the Lord for Jehovah, and call him God. Thus the words in ( Genesis 28:20 Genesis 28:21 ) are paraphrased by Onkelos; ``if "the word of the Lord" will be my help, and will keep me then "the word of the Lord" shall be, (ahlal yl) , "my God":''again, ( Leviticus 26:12 ) is paraphrased, by the Targum ascribed to Jonathan Ben Uzziel, thus; ``I will cause the glory of my Shekinah to dwell among you, and my word shall "be your God", the Redeemer;''once more, ( Deuteronomy 26:17 ) is rendered by the Jerusalem Targum after this manner; ``ye have made "the word of the Lord" king over you this day, that he may be your God:''and this is frequent with Philo the Jew, who says, the name of God is his word, and calls him, my Lord, the divine word; and affirms, that the most ancient word is God F19. - John Gill
and
- The Greek word “the” is often attached to the word “God” or theos, but it does not appear in John 1:1. Hiding behind the Witness rendering of the verse is an unspoken equation: God + “the” (ho theos) = Jehovah, the Almighty God, God - “the” (theos) = a created being with divine qualities. Witnesses claim that the apostle John deliberately omitted a “the” in the final phrase to show the difference between God and the Word. As the New World Translation (p. 775) explains:
John's inspired writings and those of his fellow disciples show what the true idea is, namely, the Word or Logos is not God or the God, but is the Son of God, and hence is a god. That is why, at John 1:1,2, the apostle refers to God as the God and to the Word or Logos as a god, to show the difference between the Two.
Is this the proper translation?
No. The equation underlying the Witness rendering breaks down within a few verses. John 1:18 contains theos twice, without “the” either time. According to Watchtower assumptions, we would expect to translate both as “god” or “a god.” Instead, the New World Translation says “God” the first time and “god” the second time. The context overrules their rule.
Why did John choose not to put “the” on the word “God”?
- To show which word was the subject of the sentence. In English, we can recognize the subject of a sentence by looking at word order. In Greek, we must look at the word endings. John 1:1 is trickier than most verses, because both “God” (theos) and “Word” (logos) have the same ending. The usual way to mark off the subject clearly was to add “the” to the subject and leave it off the direct object. That is precisely what John did here.
- To conform to standard Greek grammar. E.C. Colwell demonstrated in an article in the Journal of Biblical Literature in 1933 that it was normal practice to omit “the” in this type of sentence. John was simply using good grammar, and making it clear that he intended to say, “The Wordwas God” rather than “God was the Word,” a statement with some theological drawbacks. John constructed his sentence in the one way that would preserve proper grammar and sound doctrine, declaring that “the Word was God.”
- To show which word was the subject of the sentence. In English, we can recognize the subject of a sentence by looking at word order. In Greek, we must look at the word endings. John 1:1 is trickier than most verses, because both “God” (theos) and “Word” (logos) have the same ending. The usual way to mark off the subject clearly was to add “the” to the subject and leave it off the direct object. That is precisely what John did here.
Highly acclaimed scholar and respected Matthew Henry:
Austin says (de Civitate Dei, lib. 10, cap9) that his friend Simplicius told him he had heard a Platonic philosopher say that these first verses of St. John’s gospel were worthy to be written in letters of gold. The learned Francis Junius, in the account he gives of his own life, tells how he was in his youth infected with loose notions in religion, and by the grace of God was wonderfully recovered by reading accidentally these verses in a bible which his father had designedly laid in his way. He says that he observed such a divinity in the argument, such an authority and majesty in the style, that his flesh trembled, and he was struck with such amazement that for a whole day he scarcely knew where he was or what he did; and thence he dates the beginning of his being religious. Let us enquire what there is in those strong lines. The evangelist here lays down the great truth he is to prove, that Jesus Christ is God, one with the Father. Observe,I. Of whom he speaks—The Word —ho logos . This is an idiom peculiar to John’s writings. See 1 Jn. 1:1 1 Jn. 5:7 ; Rev. 19:13 . Yet some think that Christ is meant by the Word in Acts. 20:32 ; Heb. 4:12 ; Lu. 1:2 . The Chaldee paraphrase very frequently calls the Messiah Memra—the Word of Jehovah, and speaks of many things in the Old Testament, said to be done by the Lord, as done by that Word of the Lord. Even the vulgar Jews were taught that the Word of God was the same with God. The evangelist, in the close of his discourse (v. 18), plainly tells us why he calls Christ the Word—because he is the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, and has declared him. Word is two-fold: logos endiathetos —word conceived; and logos prophorikos —word uttered. The logos ho eso and ho exo , ratio and oratio—intelligence and utterance. 1. There is the word conceived, that is, thought, which is the first and only immediate product and conception of the soul (all the operations of which are performed by thought ), and it is one with the soul. And thus the second person in the Trinity is fitly called the Word;for he is the first-begotten of the Father, that eternal essential Wisdom which the Lord possessed, as the soul does its thought, in the beginning of his way, Prov. 8:22 . There is nothing we are more sure of than that we think, yet nothing we are more in the dark about than how we think; who can declare the generation of thought in the soul? Surely then the generations and births of the eternal mind may well be allowed to be great mysteries of godliness, the bottom of which we cannot fathom, while yet we adore the depth. There is the word uttered,and this is speech, the chief and most natural indication of the mind. And thus Christ is the Word, for by him God has in these last days spoken to us (Heb. 1:2 ), and has directed us to hear him, Mt. 17:5 . He has made known God’s mind to us, as a man’s word or speech makes known his thoughts, as far as he pleases, and no further. Christ is called that wonderful speaker (see notes on Dan. 8:13 ), the speaker of things hidden and strange. He is the Word speaking from God to us, and to God for us. John Baptist was the voice, but Christ the Word: being the Word, he is the Truth, the Amen, the faithful Witness of the mind of God.II. What he saith of him, enough to prove beyond contradiction that he is God. He asserts,1. His existence in the beginning: In the beginning was the Word. This bespeaks his existence, not only before his incarnation, but before all time. The beginning of time, in which all creatures were produced and brought into being, found this eternal Word in being. The world was from the beginning, but the Word was in the beginning. Eternity is usually expressed by being before the foundation of the world. The eternity of God is so described (Ps. 90:2 ), Before the mountains were brought forth. So Prov. 8:23 . The Word had a being before the world had a beginning. He that was in the beginning never began, and therefore was ever, achronos —without beginning of time. So Nonnus.2. His co-existence with the Father: The Word was with God, and the Word was God. Let none say that when we invite them to Christ we would draw them from God, for Christ is with God and is God; it is repeated in v. 2: the same, the very same that we believe in and preach, was in the beginning with God, that is, he was so from eternity. In the beginning the world was from God, as it was created by him; but the Word was with God, as ever with him. The Word was with God, (1.) In respect of essence and substance; for the Word was God: a distinct person or substance, for he was with God; and yet the same in substance, for he was God, Heb. 1:3 . (2.) In respect of complacency and felicity. There was a glory and happiness which Christ had with God before the world was ch. 17:5 ), the Son infinitely happy in the enjoyment of his Father’s bosom, and no less the Father’s delight, the Son of his love, Prov. 8:30 . (3.) In respect of counsel and design. The mystery of man’s redemption by this Word incarnate was hid in God before all worlds, Eph. 3:9 . He that undertook to bring us to God (1 Pt. 3:18 ) was himself from eternity with God; so that this grand affair of man’s reconciliation to God was concerted between the Father and Son from eternity, and they understand one another perfectly well in it, Zec. 6:13 ; Mt. 11:27 . He was by him as one brought up with him for this service, Prov. 8:30 . He was with God, and therefore is said to come forth from the Father. 3. His agency in making the world, v. 3. This is here, (1.) Expressly asserted: All things were made by him. He was with God, not only so as to be acquaintedwith the divine counsels from eternity, but to be active in the divine operations in the beginning of time. Then was I by him, Prov. 8:30 . God made the world by a word (Ps. 33:6 ) and Christ was the Word. By him, not as a subordinate instrument, but as a co-ordinate agent, God made the world (Heb. 1:2 ), not as the workman cuts by his axe, but as the body sees by the eye. (2.) The contrary is denied: Without him was not any thing made that was made, from the highest angel to the meanest worm. God the Father did nothing without him in that work. Now, [1.] This proves that he is God; for he that built all things is God, Heb. 3:4 . The God of Israel often proved himself to be God with this, that he made all things: Isa. 40:12, Isa. 40:28 Isa. 41:4 ; and see Jer. 10:11, Jer. 10:12 . [2.] This proves the excellency of the Christian religion, that the author and founder of it is the same that was the author and founder of the world. How excellent must that constitution needs be which derives its institution from him who is the fountain of all excellency! When we worship Christ, we worship him to whom the patriarchs gave honour as the Creator of the world, and on whom all creatures depend. [3.] This shows how well qualified he was for the work of our redemption and salvation. Help was laid upon one that was mighty indeed; for it was laid upon him that made all things; and he is appointed the author of our bliss who was the author of our being.4. The original of life and light that is in him: In him was life, v. 4. This further proves that he is God, and every way qualified for his undertaking; for, (1.) He has life in himself; not only the true God, but the living God. God is life; he swears by himself when he saith, As I live. (2.) All living creatures have their life in him; not only all the matter of the creation was made by him, but all the life too that is in the creation is derived from him and supported by him. It was the Word of God that produced the moving creatures that had life, Gen. 1:20 ; Acts. 17:25 . He is that Word by which man lives more than by bread, Mt. 4:4 . (3.) Reasonable creatures have their light from him; that life which is the light of men comes from him. Life in man is something greater and nobler than it is in other creatures; it is rational, and not merely animal.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, if one is not under law, then one is sinless. Jesus was not under law since he was the son of God. Sin is not imputed when there is no law.
The only two laws Jesus required was love God and love your neighbor. He never violated these two laws so he was sinless. The rest of the laws didn't count to Jesus, which bothered the Pharisees. Blessed is the person whose sins God will not take into account.
As far as the human and divine aspects of Jesus, in psychology there is a thing called projection. This is where internal contents, from the unconscious mind, are made conscious by appearing to be outside ourselves. Projection is like a movie overlay onto reality, where unconscious contents shine like a movie onto reality. The result is a composite image half internal and half external, that one will react to.
Advertisers use this affect all the time to help sell products. As an example, they may have a handsome male and/or beautiful female in the new model car they are trying to sell. The goal is to induce desire. The hope is this desire, will linger in their mind, then overlay the car, with an emotional projection, so you will desire and love the car like a human. Some males will call their car, she.
In the case of the Divine nature of Jesus, this was about special type of induction of the projection factor in the hearts and minds of his followers. The unconscious mind of Jesus was able to induce the projection factor, to where the darkness of a cruel world, becomes paradise in the minds of his followers, via a divine movie overlay. This experience, although partially projection, nevertheless impacts the brain like full sensory data, creating conviction for what you appear to see and what you appear to feel.
The Divine nature of Jesus was connected to his inner self, which could naturally and spontaneous insert commands lines, into the psyche of others. This could help them project and react to the composite, for conviction, so they could help internally trigger the scheduled update in the brain's operating system. Jesus was an evolutionary push for change.
The idea of the early Christians, walking in the shadow of the valley of a cruel death, while not resisting, shows the power of the projections that were induced. They saw something else. Their natural example set the potential in others who were not protecting but could see their actions and faith. The ancient world came to an end and a new world began as the human mind changed gears.
Science will not see a projection if it happens in the mind of another. It will be called subjective. However, in the minds of those who have it induced, the overlay creates an affect similar to hard really data. However, if you make the projection conscious and distinct from reality,then it can have other meanings; Holy Spirit.
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Anthem
Active Member
WalterTrull
Godfella
"Follow me" only makes sense if Jesus was the same as we are. Whether that was spiritual, human, God-like, etc. is semantics.
And yet, John wrote only a few verses later, "No man has ever seen God." Which interpretation \ rendition of John 1:1 harmonizes with the context?
WalterTrull
Godfella
Unfortunately, our God concepts appear so dissimilar that your statement seems a non sequitur.
And yet he also said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".
So, keep studying, and ask God for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Drew Henefer
Warrior
Jesus is Adam
King of the Jews
Drew Henefer
Warrior
The mother and the whore.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Read about the resurrection. The resurrection, itself, assumes Jesus’ Divinity.
The Bible, itself, is part of that same Tradition, so your argument makes no sense.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
They do, actually, if you know what to look for.
Jesus said that he would rise from the dead. That’s the act of God, not a human being.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Not quite. Jesus was begotten, not created.
Tomas Kindahl
... out on my Odyssé — again!
That seems to me to be a contradiction in the New Testament. I think there were two original competing theologies.
- Adoptionism, where Jesus biological son of Mary and Joseph is granted the Power of the Name of God, and uses it to perform miracles. Before that he was just a normal man.
- "Virginism", where somehow Mary is fertilized by God, and therefore he is able to perform all miracles – but note: Jesus is chastizing his followers for not being able to miraculously cure epilepsy, so the miracle stuff doesn't need to be performed by a 50%-God-guy, an ordinary human may actually suffice!
This "fully human" stuff is used as a technical addendum to the Christus Victor soteriology, conceived to explain why a God died. Jesus's death on the cross, was conceived to cheat Satan: killing a perfectly good human being will undo the former "settlement" between God and Satan, where Satan takes every non-good soul and God the good ones. If Satan breaks the "settlement", then it is undone in its entirety and God can take sinners as he wish. I think it is a logicism with horrible holes in it, and it is too technical to take seriously.