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Featured how human was Jesus?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Sep 17, 2018.

  1. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Jesus performs all sorts of things, that average or even beyond average being could not do. This is throughout the New Testament, and, even begins with HIS LITERAL INCARNATION, into Deity-man form, via Mary.
    So, the idea that Jesus was only mystically gifted, makes no sense. It isn't the narrative, except for some manner of 'humanizing', that itself becomes vague.

    I don't believe that Jesus, was made "fully human", on the cross. And in fact, Jesus tells us, that HE RAISES Himself, with co'operation from the Abba.

    This means, that Jesus, was never "fully human", not God, which doesn't make sense, anyway, as even with part human nature, Jesus is a demi-god...which, traditionally, there are actually, only gods, and non'gods, not 'demi'gods', as in some other religions.
     
    #1 Disciple of Jesus, Sep 17, 2018
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Where will I find Jesus described as a "Deity-man"? Where will I find Jesus claiming to be God? Please show me...it has to be from the horse's mouth...show me where Jesus said he was God by his own admission.....or the Father's admission that the son was his equal.....?

    Again if Jesus was God he would have had supernatural powers from birth....yet there is no mention of any such thing. When people heard Jesus speak they were stumbled over the fact that he was just the carpenter's son. His siblings did not put faith in him until after his death and resurrection because he was just Jesus, their older brother. There is no indication of a God-man at all.

    Jesus had no power to perform miracles until his baptism when he received the power of the holy spirit. At that time God 'opened the heavens' so that Jesus remembered his former life in heaven. He spent the next 40 days in the wilderness, coming to terms and gaining encouragement for the difficult assignment that was before him.

    Jesus became fully human at his conception in the womb of Mary. However the Father transferred Jesus life into the body of a human, Jesus was 100% human because he had to be related "kin" to Adam in order to redeem his children. Jesus could not be God because God is immortal and cannot die. If Jesus did not really die, then the ransom is not paid and we are still condemned to sin and death forever.

    Jesus was "a god" in the sense of having divine origins, but he had to be 100% human to offer his life for us....The Greek "theos" means "a divine mighty one"....so, he was divine, but not deity. He served his God and Father. The Father was not part of God but was the only true God as Jesus said. (John 17:3) Jesus never claimed to be part of a godhead.
     
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  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The one thing that is certain about Jesus' relationship to God is that there is no way for us to establish exactly what that relationship is and was and actually know that we're correct. The only thing that we do know is that those in the early Church believed Jesus was of God, but what exactly constituted that "of" really never got answered on any basis of consensus.
     
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  4. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I'm always surprised that none of the Witnesses respond to any of my God threads in which I point out that a mortal man can be a god, like you mention with Jesus.

    God called the Judges gods and Moses was appointed by Jehovah himself as God of Aaron and Pharaoh; is this not correct?
     
    #4 Earthling, Sep 18, 2018
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  5. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    In the case of the judges and Moses, which I mentioned earlier, what were the descriptors? (Psalms 82:1 Psalms 82:6 / John 10:34-35 / Exodus 4:16 Exodus 7:1)
     
  6. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I disagree. Psalms 8:5 refers to angels, Psalms 82 refers to the Judges of Israel. However, even then I don't see how your insistence of a descriptor is applied either way, nor at any of the instances where the gods of the nations, Dagon, Molech, Baal, etc. are referred to.
     
  7. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Very disappointing response.
     
  8. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    What about the explanation "Jesus was fully human, and the facts were heavily embroidered until they became mostly legend, and then Paul expanded those legends into a whole new religion."
    It seems a good bit more plausible to me.
    Tom
     
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  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You're right...
    Go to " www.2001translation.com ", and read their translation of John 1:1. They have interesting links! Of course, I don't agree with every link.

    I always enjoy finding non-JW websites that support the Bible's accurate teachings. Context -- all of it -- has to be considered, as you well know.

    Take care.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    People like the author of the OP are hung up on their own ideas about what a "god" is in the Greek language definition of the word. Polytheistic Greeks had no word for the one God of Israel because all their gods were identified by their names......the Jews had stopped using God's name name, which is recorded almost 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. So in order to identify this unique but nameless God, they used the definite article "THE" to identify "THE God" of the Jews from any other god (false god) or divinely authorised persons such as Jesus, Moses or the judges in Israel.

    As you are aware, there is a "blindness" that affects many people today, just as Paul stated. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) These ones will say that God's word is only what they deem it to be, eliminating whole books and discrediting their authors....as if they somehow know better than Jehovah what should be included in his word and what should be eliminated. If God leaves them to their delusions, then perhaps we should too? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) Our responses then become food for thought for those who might read them.

    TBH I really don't know what to make of someone like yourself....you are not a Witness, yet you post as if you are. You defame the brothers on the governing body but still promote what they teach. You are an enigma to me. Perhaps if you decide what you are, it will be easier to support you. One foot in the truth and the other in the world requires a decision. I hope you get to make that decision very soon because evidence suggests that the system is about to collapse. It will happen very suddenly, catching people off guard. (Matthew 24:42-44)

    No one found outside the 'ark' when Jehovah closes the door will survive. You know that is what we believe.
     
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  11. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    First of all, thank you for your response. I agree with what you said about the subject. There are some clarifications I would make about the later portion of your comments, regarding myself. Firstly, while I do agree that much of our beliefs are the same, I wouldn't go so far as to say I post as if I were a JW. I know what you mean, and it's true to an extent, but at the same time there are times when I post quite differently. I sometimes use language and an approach that the JW's wouldn't approve of. When commenting on the subject of JW's I always make a point to express that I'm not one and never have been so as to avoid confusion, especially given that my approach can sometimes be more . . . colorful.

    I disagree that I defame the governing body or any branch or member of the JW's. I respect and admire them, but at the same time may differ only in that I might be critical of some of their teachings and practices, especially of the past.

    I realize that the JW's see things very concretely, especially regarding those in the truth and the world, but I may not agree with that line of thinking. I don't think that I have any more of a foothold in that world than any JW would, since it is impossible to completely remove oneself from the world. I would agree that I may appear more worldly due to my language, and that some of the things I do a JW wouldn't, like video games, entertainment, and things of that nature, but I always thought that they took that a little too far. Even when I was studying with them.

    And the one thing I do is smoking cigarettes. I'm trying to stop that.

    I wasn't really expecting any JW's to support me, as such, in the threads about gods, but I was surprised that none supported, or if called for, challenged what was being said.
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Psalm 82 NASB....

    "God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. How long will you judge unjustly And show partiality to the wicked? Selah. Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. “Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes.” Arise, O God, judge the earth! For it is You who possesses all the nations."

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 82:1-8&version=NASB

    This is Asaph speaking about human judges in Israel....not angels. How do angels do justice to the afflicted and destitute? How do angels rescue the weak and needy, or vindicate the the weak and fatherless?

    I'm sorry but you've got it all mixed up. The whole point of Jesus quoting Psalm 82 was to show that the word "god" does not only pertain to the true God but also to others...false gods...satan....human judges....and even to Jesus himself.

    And perhaps if you had there would no longer be an argument over this word which you seem to think is a name. Unless you have studied these original language words and their meanings, I believe that you are grasping at straws to support your beliefs.

    The Hebrew word for "god" is "Elohim". Regarding the trinity, one thing is sure: the religious clergy who believe in that pagan doctrine do not know how to interpret the entirety of scripture.

    The trinitarian clergy point out that the title El·o·himʹ, as applied to the Creator, is in the plural number and literally means “Gods”. They claim that this is a proof of the teaching of a trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures, namely, that there are “three Persons” in one God. But their own argument backfires because, as they themselves point out, El·o·himʹ means “Gods”, and not “Persons”. So, to follow through with their own argument, the title El·o·himʹ would teach that there are two or more Gods in one, instead of “three Persons in one God”. Thus the trinitarians would be guilty of arguing that there is a multiplicity of gods, contrary to their insistence that there are not three Gods, but only one God.

    Right at the start in Genesis 1:1 it knocks the ground from under the trinity champions by saying: “The form of the title El·o·himʹ is plural, the plural of excellence or majesty and not to denote a multiple personality. The Greek LXX [Septuagint] renders El·o·himʹ as ho The·osʹ, showing that it means an individual ‘God’.

    After the deluge of Noah’s day the pagans did the same by referring to their apostate gods also by the plural form of excellence, elohim, god. (Note this as to the god Dagon at Judges 16:23, 24; and the god Chemosh and the god Milcom at 1 Kings 11:33 and the god Baal-zebub at 2 Kings 1:2, 3, 16.)

    In Noah’s history recording the days of Enoch, after idolatry had become practiced, the true worshipers frequently put a definite article ha before el or elohim to indicate “the true God” Jehovah as distinct from the false gods who were also being referred to as el or elohim but not as ha-el or ha-elohim. (Genesis 5:22; 2 Kings 1:6, 9)

    (Information and excerpts taken from Watchtower Online Library.)

    I sometimes wonder why I bother DoJ.....You just don't seem to get it....The term "god" is a concept. It is a different concept depending upon which "god" is being discussed and in what language and culture. To the Jews there was only one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4) He had a name which he revealed to Moses....YHWH, translated as either Yahweh or Jehovah in English. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

    The Greeks had a multiplicity of gods which were often licentious and violent with lusts and other distasteful attributes. They use the same word for all "gods" who suited that description in their culture. The only way to distinguish the unique God of the Jews was to use the definite article "the" as I have explained many times.

    I want you to know that your arguments do not hold water and I am wondering where you get your beliefs? Do you have teachers who impart these ideas to you? Or have you arrived at them by some divine revelation given just to you? Only you can answer that. But please remember that God's people at no time were self taught.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Does that leave you in a bit of a no man's land then? I have seen you make some pretty disparaging remarks about the GB....and some people mistake you for a Witness because you promote WT teachings and use the NWT. When you represent Jehovah anywhere by your words and actions, HE is judged, not just you. Identifying yourself as a disciple of Jesus Christ is a huge responsibility.

    What is "worldliness" to a JW? What is the "world" that Jesus said we had to avoid becoming part of? Can you live in the world without being part of it? He did...so what did he mean? What world situation did he have to contend with?

    Some questions we do well to ask.....do I consider myself a Christian? If I do, what is expected of me? Do I have a brotherhood with whom I meet regularly? (Hebrews 10:24-25) Do the things I participate in (such as you mentioned...the "colorful" language, "video games, entertainment, and things of that nature"...smoking...) would we be comfortable doing those things if Jesus was sitting beside us? How far would God like us to "take things"? (Psalm 11:5) What did Jesus say?....."not as I will, but as you will". Are we willing to sacrifice what we like (the things that appeal to the fallen flesh) to please Jehovah? He won't change for us...it is we who must change for him. Humble ones do without hesitation, but it takes time to overcome ingrained practices and thinking.

    Honest self- analysis is hard...we tend to justify what we want to do and believe....because there is a partner in crime within our very being.....a "treacherous heart". (Jeremiah 17:9) God teaches us how to put everything in the right place in a balanced way.
     
  14. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Jesus had two natures. In his human nature he died. His divine nature could not die and raised himself
    and that would be articulated by the hypostatic union - two natures in one person.
    The council of Chalcedon discussed that and how the two natures relate

    The Doxological Coda to Psalms
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You're saying, then, that we have strong grounds for concluding that the reports cannot be true.
    That's only if you go with Luke / Matthew. Mark says that Jesus was human until his baptism, and only then did Yahweh adopt him as his son (in exactly the manner Yahweh had earlier adopted David as his son ─ see Psalm 2:7, Mark 1:9-11 and Acts 13:33.)
    Jesus says repeatedly that he has no power of his own, but only the power that Yahweh lets him have:
    John 5:19the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
    John 5:30I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
    John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me
    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”
    John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”​
    and more.
    Really? Please quote me that part.
    Jesus constantly denies he was God. He never once says he's God, See the quotes above and:
    Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;
    Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
    Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
    Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
    John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
    John 10:29My Father [...] is greater than all”.
    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​
    To which Paul adds:
    1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    And there's also:
    1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

    It may be worth remembering that the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented until the third or fourth century, to solve the political problems of trying to elevate Jesus to god status while avoiding the jibes of the Jews that Christians were polytheists like the pagans.

    And that the Trinity doctrine claims that Father, Son and Ghost are distinct persons but each of them separately is 100% of God, which adds up to 300% of God which means three gods, which the doctrine denies. In doing so, even the RCC and Piscos/ Anglicans acknowledge that the doctrine is thus 'a mystery in the strict sense' which 'can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed'. It will occur to you about now that no objective test will distinguish such a 'mystery' from pure nonsense.

    (For example, if Jesus is 100% of God then Jesus is 100% of his own father, and so is Yahweh and so is the Ghost. So not just the Father but all three have an equal claim to the title 'Father'. And then we have the silliness of Jesus on the cross saying 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?')
     
    #15 blü 2, Sep 18, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    An accepted name of the god of the Jews. Jesus was a circumcised Jew, you'll recall.
    Sure, just like Mark said, the adopted son of God. Mark is the earliest of the gospels. The idea of adoption is essentially Jewish, as the references to Psalm 2:7 show; the idea of divine insemination (Luke, Matthew) is from Greek tradition.
    Goes nicely with the Gnostic texts of Paul, don't you think?
    How is that inconsistent with Mark? JtB says a greater is coming and ... oh, here he is now!​
    But the only reason we're talking about this baptism is because it triggers Jesus' adoption by Yahweh as Yahweh's son. Whether it was Baptism class A or B or M(xvii.z) doesn't matter.
    If you're talking about the baptism of Jesus as described in Mark 1, that's the moment Jesus became the son of God, says Mark.
     
    #16 blü 2, Sep 18, 2018
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  17. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    Jesus was not human at all but Christian scholars agree that Jesus was historical.
     
  18. UnderstandChristianity

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    Now follow me here this is not easy learning ;;;; you on your own can not believe it but you can still learn it.
    Jesus is God.. God can not die ! so Jesus did the impossible the creator of the universe became his own created creature! Why so he could die for us his other creatures MARK 15;24,37,46.. Martin Luther said its easier for us people to believe we people could become donkeys at least we and donkeys are both creatures . if we could believe on our own their would be no need of the holy spirit .. yes Jesus is fully man and fully God. JESUS IS FULLY MAN
    born of a women Hebrews 4;15 he came into the world a helpless baby Luke 2;12 came from david romans 13 he matured physically mentally spiritually luke 2;40 he got hungry Mathew 4;11 and there is many more scriptures also. Jesus is God ACTS 20 :38 God bought us with his own blood. through Jesus every thing was made; John1:3
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Can I have scriptural confirmation of that? Where will I find it written that Jesus had two natures?

    So only half of Jesus died and the other half resurrected his dead self? :confused: Are you serious?
    Again...please can I have scriptural confirmation of this?

    And scripture for that...?

    They might have...but the Bible doesn't. Do you see a problem with this situation? These ideas do NOT come from God's word...they come from the "traditions of men"...something Jesus condemned in the Pharisees. He said to them...."Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?. . . . You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines." (Matthew 15:3; 7-9)

    Has history repeated? I believe so....
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    None of these verses say that Jesus is God. They do not even imply that God became his own created creature to save mankind. If you understand the mechanics of the ransom, you might see how ridiculous that assumption is. Do you know what the role of a redeemer was in Israel?

    The scriptures do not agree with you. Jesus was 100% human. He came from heaven because he existed as the very first creation of his Father. (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15) The ransom demanded the offering of a perfect life to buy back what Adam lost for his children. Adam paid for his own sin with his own life but there was no one to offer his perfect life to redeem his offspring. That is why Jesus became a sinless human child...he became a 'kinsman' who could pay for the release of Adam's children. All he needed to be was Adam's equivalent....not God. That would be like someone demanding a ransom of $60,000 for the release of a hostage and then someone paying the kidnapper $600,000,000,000!

    Yes, the scriptures say all that about Jesus as he was born and raised by his devout Jewish parents....but nowhere does Jesus say that he is God. If you can find me one scripture that has him admitting that I'd like to see it. If you can find one scripture that calls Jesus "God the Son", I would also like to see that.

    John 1:3 is just confirming what Paul wrote at Colossians 1:16-17...."For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (NASB)

    The son is the agency "through" which all things were created. But he is not the Creator. He is the fabricator of what God produced in the beginning. (Genesis 1:1)
     
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