How highly do you think of yourself?

[SomeRandom]

I think many of us when learning of past atrocities like to convince ourselves that we would never partake in any such atrocious actions. That we would valiantly and defiantly defend the innocent and stand for truth and justice if we were in such circumstances.

But that’s from a very safe vantage point. We have hindsight. We have a society that already condemns such acts. We are removed from such events.

History has proven time and time again that many people will merely fall in line and adapt to their surroundings. This is not unexpected even as that is merely a common trait of evolution.

So if you were born in say the 1920s in Germany, (assuming you belonged to the “Aryan race”) do you really think you would be the outlier? The valiant crusader for justice? Even though as a child you would have been conditioned to believe the propaganda, both by the government and societal attitudes around you. Would you really fight back?
It’s easy to think of say the Nazis as despicable people (and don’t get me wrong what they did was truly unforgivable.) But many world leaders didn’t condemn Hitler at first, preferring to stay out of a European conflict in favour of potentially protecting their own. Many German Jews will recount the confusion and horror at seeing their German neighbours, normally gentile and otherwise friendly folks “turn into ravenous wolves.” I know the antisemitic sentiment was already around before Hitler but it wasn’t as malicious. Also I can understand the reticence of said world leaders. After WWI who wanted a sequel? You’d have to be a sadist!

Hell we as the “allies” even position ourselves as the righteous victors against the Nazis. But as my History teachers were always quick to point out, we didn’t go to war out a sense of justice and respect for what was good in the World. Hitler was quite popular in many Western nations even. We did it more out of obligation and other external factors

So do you think you would have succumbed to peer pressure, the teachings of your elders like a regular human? Or do you really think you would have somehow been above it? The lone Wolf fighting for what’s “right.”
Or do you think you would have been the normal human? The one succumbing to regular pressures like everyone else?

And before anyone even thinks of saying something like “well I’m a minority. I’d never support such things.”
The phenomenon is well documented even.
Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia

 

[Lain]

I think many of us when learning of past atrocities like to convince ourselves that we would never partake in any such atrocious actions. That we would valiantly and defiantly defend the innocent and stand for truth and justice if we were in such circumstances.

But that’s from a very safe vantage point. We have hindsight. We have a society that already condemns such acts. We are removed from such events.

History has proven time and time again that many people will merely fall in line and adapt to their surroundings. This is not unexpected even as that is merely a common trait of evolution.

So if you were born in say the 1920s in Germany, (assuming you belonged to the “Aryan race”) do you really think you would be the outlier? The valiant crusader for justice? Even though as a child you would have been conditioned to believe the propaganda, both by the government and societal attitudes around you. Would you really fight back?
It’s easy to think of say the Nazis as despicable people (and don’t get me wrong what they did was truly unforgivable.) But many world leaders didn’t condemn Hitler at first, preferring to stay out of a European conflict in favour of potentially protecting their own. Many German Jews will recount the confusion and horror at seeing their German neighbours, normally gentile and otherwise friendly folks “turn into ravenous wolves.” I know the antisemitic sentiment was already around before Hitler but it wasn’t as malicious. Also I can understand the reticence of said leader. After WWI who wanted to go to another one?

Hell we as the “allies” even position ourselves as the righteous victors against the Nazis. But as my History teachers were always quick to point out, we didn’t go to war out a sense of justice and respect for what was good in the World. Hitler was quite popular in many Western nations even. We did it more out of obligation and other external factors

So do you think you would have succumbed to peer pressure, the teachings of your elders like a regular human? Or do you really think you would have somehow been above it? The lone Wolf fighting for what’s “right.”
Or do you think you would have been the normal human? The one succumbing to regular pressures like everyone else?

I think I would've done whatever my in-group (maybe the 15 or so people closest to me) was doing at the time, which I think is actually what most people do all of the time, I am doing it right now on several levels daily, so I don't think anything would change in this case.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Ever read Ordinary Men?

 

[SomeRandom]

I think I would've done whatever my in-group (maybe the 15 or so people closest to me) was doing at the time, which I think is actually what most people do all of the time, I am doing it right now on several levels daily, so I don't think anything would change in this case.

I think so too. Which makes me a little concerned about who my leaders are. Not enough to be wrapped up in it or anything. Just something to ponder

 

[SomeRandom]

Ever read Ordinary Men?

I literally just ordered the book off Bookdepository lol
Recommended to me by my history obsessed friend. It sounded interesting.
Though I am somewhat familiar with its content due to a documentary I saw. A German one, iirc

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think many of us when learning of past atrocities like to convince ourselves that we would never partake in any such atrocious actions. That we would valiantly and defiantly defend the innocent and stand for truth and justice if we were in such circumstances.

But that’s from a very safe vantage point. We have hindsight. We have a society that already condemns such acts. We are removed from such events.

History has proven time and time again that many people will merely fall in line and adapt to their surroundings. This is not unexpected even as that is merely a common trait of evolution.

So if you were born in say the 1920s in Germany, (assuming you belonged to the “Aryan race”) do you really think you would be the outlier? The valiant crusader for justice? Even though as a child you would have been conditioned to believe the propaganda, both by the government and societal attitudes around you. Would you really fight back?
It’s easy to think of say the Nazis as despicable people (and don’t get me wrong what they did was truly unforgivable.) But many world leaders didn’t condemn Hitler at first, preferring to stay out of a European conflict in favour of potentially protecting their own. Many German Jews will recount the confusion and horror at seeing their German neighbours, normally gentile and otherwise friendly folks “turn into ravenous wolves.” I know the antisemitic sentiment was already around before Hitler but it wasn’t as malicious. Also I can understand the reticence of said world leaders. After WWI who wanted a sequel? You’d have to be a sadist!

Hell we as the “allies” even position ourselves as the righteous victors against the Nazis. But as my History teachers were always quick to point out, we didn’t go to war out a sense of justice and respect for what was good in the World. Hitler was quite popular in many Western nations even. We did it more out of obligation and other external factors

So do you think you would have succumbed to peer pressure, the teachings of your elders like a regular human? Or do you really think you would have somehow been above it? The lone Wolf fighting for what’s “right.”
Or do you think you would have been the normal human? The one succumbing to regular pressures like everyone else?

And before anyone even thinks of saying something like “well I’m a minority. I’d never support such things.”
The phenomenon is well documented even.
Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia

I believe I would not be any different than I am now, trying to help those in need, and do it with no violence.

 

[mangalavara]

So do you think you would have succumbed to peer pressure, the teachings of your elders like a regular human? Or do you really think you would have somehow been above it?

If I were a German citizen back then who was a critical thinker, I might not have succumbed to it. Of course, American critical thinkers today assume many things are right, sacred, or whatever, so would I have believed things back then in Nazi Germany that I did not bother to question? Very likely.

Or do you think you would have been the normal human? The one succumbing to regular pressures like everyone else?

It is very easy to succumb to regular pressures due to the threats. Most of us just want to live our lives in peace and freedom, so I might have succumbed to pressure.

This is a very good topic, and it reminds me of something Bill Maher said not long ago.

To paraphrase Maher:

'I love how these Millennials think they are Nostradamus, that they would have known better than everybody else if they were living in the past. I have got news for you Millennials. Decades from now, people are going to look back at your generation and wonder why you approved of things that will be seen as wrong by them.'

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think many of us when learning of past atrocities like to convince ourselves that we would never partake in any such atrocious actions. That we would valiantly and defiantly defend the innocent and stand for truth and justice if we were in such circumstances.

But that’s from a very safe vantage point. We have hindsight. We have a society that already condemns such acts. We are removed from such events.

History has proven time and time again that many people will merely fall in line and adapt to their surroundings. This is not unexpected even as that is merely a common trait of evolution.

So if you were born in say the 1920s in Germany, (assuming you belonged to the “Aryan race”) do you really think you would be the outlier? The valiant crusader for justice? Even though as a child you would have been conditioned to believe the propaganda, both by the government and societal attitudes around you. Would you really fight back?
It’s easy to think of say the Nazis as despicable people (and don’t get me wrong what they did was truly unforgivable.) But many world leaders didn’t condemn Hitler at first, preferring to stay out of a European conflict in favour of potentially protecting their own. Many German Jews will recount the confusion and horror at seeing their German neighbours, normally gentile and otherwise friendly folks “turn into ravenous wolves.” I know the antisemitic sentiment was already around before Hitler but it wasn’t as malicious. Also I can understand the reticence of said world leaders. After WWI who wanted a sequel? You’d have to be a sadist!

Hell we as the “allies” even position ourselves as the righteous victors against the Nazis. But as my History teachers were always quick to point out, we didn’t go to war out a sense of justice and respect for what was good in the World. Hitler was quite popular in many Western nations even. We did it more out of obligation and other external factors

So do you think you would have succumbed to peer pressure, the teachings of your elders like a regular human? Or do you really think you would have somehow been above it? The lone Wolf fighting for what’s “right.”
Or do you think you would have been the normal human? The one succumbing to regular pressures like everyone else?

And before anyone even thinks of saying something like “well I’m a minority. I’d never support such things.”
The phenomenon is well documented even.
Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia

I hope I'd stand up, but if I'm being honest fear of reprisals, particularly to those closest to me, would make rationalisation attractive. You never know until you're in the position, I think.

These are interesting experiments around this topic which are ethically hard to replicate these days.

Milgram experiment - Wikipedia

Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia

 

[Heyo]

So do you think you would have succumbed to peer pressure, the teachings of your elders like a regular human? Or do you really think you would have somehow been above it? The lone Wolf fighting for what’s “right.”
Or do you think you would have been the normal human? The one succumbing to regular pressures like everyone else?

And before anyone even thinks of saying something like “well I’m a minority. I’d never support such things.”
The phenomenon is well documented even.
Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia

I guess I would have done what I have experience in doing, opposing authoritarianism in speech and, if I don't get a following, simply leave.

(I already did that on a small scale. One guy tried to be an authoritarian leader in a formerly democratic living history group. From private conversations I knew that his attempts weren't supported by all but when it came time to stand up and oppose him, I was alone. I left, the group dissolved half a year later and some of the members humbly came to join my new group.)

 

[RestlessSoul]

I’ve given this some thought in the past, on this specific issue. Of course I’d prefer to think I would have had the courage to resist tyranny. But there is no way to be sure how you’d behave until you are faced with the real live situation.

If you were a common soldier in the Wehrmacht, miles from home on Eastern front, freezing and terrified, you might be delighted to be offered a cushy billet behind the lines, far from the Red Army’s Katyusha rocket launchers.

Already brutalised by war, you’re sent with all your mates to a Ukrainian village and told to round everyone up and assemble men, women and children in the village square. Then march them all out to a field and line them up in front of the ditches you dug the night before…

At what point do stop being a frightened boy keeping his head down and doing what he’s told, and become a brave man willing to defy orders and die on the frozen steppes, never to see your mother’s farm again?

The thing is, all those millions - and it was millions, not just a handful - of people who collaborated with Nazi atrocities, were people just like us. Some of the leading Nazis were monsters, thugs, freaks; but most ordinary Germans, and Hungarians, Croats, Bosnians, Latvians and Lithuanians etc, were just people.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Interesting thread btw

 

[Mock Turtle]

As per others, I'm not sure how I might behave in such circumstances, especially where one might find a life ended rather quickly and where something better was possible if only in the future - so as to give the impression of knuckling under and plan for the future. Not easy as to knowing, even if one did recognise the evil that was operating at the time. Difficult to know when a life is wasted for nothing or when it isn't. Like many perhaps - at school or college - I did go through the experiment where a set-up occurred where some or most in the class were secretly told to support a wrong answer so as to see who complied with this, so as to fit in. In which case I did maintain the true answer regardless, but I'm not sure this tells me much. Perhaps just stubborn.

Not sure if it was this one:

6.5C: The Asch Experiment- The Power of Peer Pressure - Social Sci LibreTexts

 

[Audie]

I’ve given this some thought in the past, on this specific issue. Of course I’d prefer to think I would have had the courage to resist tyranny. But there is no way to be sure how you’d behave until you are faced with the real live situation.

If you were a common soldier in the Wehrmacht, miles from home on Eastern front, freezing and terrified, you might be delighted to be offered a cushy billet behind the lines, far from the Red Army’s Katyusha rocket launchers.

Already brutalised by war, you’re sent with all your mates to a Ukrainian village and told to round everyone up and assemble men, women and children in the village square. Then march them all out to a field and line them up in front of the ditches you dug the night before…

At what point do stop being a frightened boy keeping his head down and doing what he’s told, and become a brave man willing to defy orders and die on the frozen steppes, never to see your mother’s farm again?

The thing is, all those millions - and it was millions, not just a handful - of people who collaborated with Nazi atrocities, were people just like us. Some of the leading Nazis were monsters, thugs, freaks; but most ordinary Germans, and Hungarians, Croats, Bosnians, Latvians and Lithuanians etc, were just people.

Here is what one man did.

An Unlikely Warrior: A Jewish Soldier in Hitler's Army by Georg Rauch

 

[Shadow11]

Well if you weren't white with blond hair like I am it isn't hard to figure out that they would single me out sooner or later after they had finished cleansing others from their land. I pretty confident I would not of fallen for it because they would already hate me. Their plan was to enslave all third world countries and people of color. I guess you have to not be white to understand.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Here it is the 2020's and i live in the
(tightening) grip of the CCP.
Suggestions?

Do you live in Hong Kong Audie?

 

[Audie]

Do you live in Hong Kong Audie?

Yep

 

[Heyo]

Here it is the 2020's and i live in the
(tightening) grip of the CCP.
Suggestions?

Fight, flight, freeze or fawn.
I don't like to fight (when chances are that I'll lose). I'd be looking at destinations to move to.

 

[anna.]

Here it is the 2020's and i live in the
(tightening) grip of the CCP.
Suggestions?

I am very worried for your future.

 

[anna.]

May I suggest reading Global Times?

Why?

Global Times (China)

 

[anna.]

It relates very directly to the whole point of the thread

Please lay it out. I have no idea what you're trying to say.