How has God shown you He loves you?

[Windwalker]

I originally had it written this way: “God does not speak directly to ordinary people, even if they imagine that He does” but I deleted the word directly.

As an interesting consideration in this context, do you believe that any communication that occurs anywhere about anything from anything or anyone to another or from another occurs directly, without any form of mediation? When I am speaking you right now, is this a direct communication, or a mediated communication? If I was standing in the same room as you and speaking face to face, is that a direct or mediated communication?

 

[Truthseeker]

You believe in a God gene? Is there any scientific evidence for that?

They did a survey that showed that those who had the gene was more likely to feel spiritual.

How could they be close to God and not feel close to God? How would they know they are close if they do not feel close? What does close even mean? How could anyone ever know if they are close to God? It could just be their imagination.

Being close to God is the same thing as reflecting the attributes of God. It is not a feeling, though if you are close to God, you are more likely to feel close to God. We don't always know when we are reflecting the attributes of God, either, because we can deceive ourselves. A feeling does not tell us exactly how close to God we are, but it can tell us we are on the right track.

I do not understand what you mean by communing with God? Baha’u’llah wrote that there can be no direct intercourse between humans and God:

What I mean, of course, is that we commune with the Holy Spirit.

If you love justice, then you love God. In general if you love the attributes of God then you love God.

I do not understand why you say that Duane? I see no justice in this world. Regarding the attributes of God, how can we really know God has those attributes? Those are just what scriptures say about God.

You believe in Baha'u'llah, do you believe God is lying through Baha'u'llah? You are in bad shape if you do. No wonder you cannot commune with God. You misunderstand Him. My communing with God is not going very well lately either. I feel far from God. I'm having my doubts about religion.

You should care about being close to God because that is what all religion in the end leads up to.

No, that is not what religion is about, not according to Baha’u’llah. That is what some people want for themselves, to be close to God, but religion is about so much more:

16. O SON OF LIGHT!
Forget all save Me and commune with My spirit. This is of the essence of My command, therefore turn unto it.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I think you better be close to God, and commune with the Holy Spirit if you believe in Baha'u'llah.

Do religious people even bother to look around at society and what is going on in the world? Or do they just sit and meditate and try to get close to God?

I consider it rather selfish to just consider myself and being close to God, which is why I do not care if I am close to God. If God wants me to be close to Him, He can come and get me. Otherwise, I am not going to come running after an elusive God who remains in hiding for all but a few who claim to hear from Him. However, I believe what Baha’u’llah wrote and He wrote that there can be no direct intercourse between God and His creatures, so if people claim that they had intercourse with God I have to say that is their imagination. Either that or I discount what Baha’u’llah wrote. But if Baha’u’llah is infallible why would I believe in fallible humans? That makes no logical sense at all.

They are not imagining it mostly, but they don't realize that they are communing with the Holy Spirit and not God. It is not selfish to want to be close to God. Baha'u'llah says this:

4. O SON OF JUSTICE!
Whither can a lover go but to the land of his beloved? and what seeker findeth rest away from his heart's desire? To the true lover reunion is life, and separation is death. His breast is void of patience and his heart hath no peace. A myriad lives he would forsake to hasten to the abode of his beloved.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

To be selfish is to put oneself before God and other people. It is not selfish to want to be close to God. You can serve mankind and at the same time be close to God. If you serve mankind you are closer to God.

The trouble with me right now, is that I don't serve mankind and so I am far from God. I don't like being retired, and going on forums and making a fool of myself. I am not serving God by being on forums. I don't like the people there, except for a few. I don't like you right now, I don't like myself, and I don't like my wife.

 

[Windwalker]

They are not imagining it mostly, but they don't realize that they are communing with the Holy Spirit and not God.

How is the Holy Spirit not God? God is Spirit. That is the Being and Essence of God, God expressing God as God. How do you see this?

To be selfish is to put oneself before God and other people. It is not selfish to want to be close to God.

In order to serve others, being close to God is a necessity. It's like putting on your oxygen mask first before concern for others, because without that oxygen for yourself, you can help no one else. Seeking God first, is not an act of selfishness, but an act of Love.

 

[Trailblazer]

As an interesting consideration in this context, do you believe that any communication that occurs anywhere about anything from anything or anyone to another or from another occurs directly, without any form of mediation? When I am speaking you right now, is this a direct communication, or a mediated communication? If I was standing in the same room as you and speaking face to face, is that a direct or mediated communication?

I consider posts that are written from one person to another to be direct communication.
I consider words that are spoken from one person to another on the phone or in their presence to be direct communication.

It is not mediated because there is nobody in between those two people.

 

[Windwalker]

I consider posts that are written from one person to another to be direct communication.
I consider words that are spoken from one person to another on the phone or in their presence to be direct communication.

It is not mediated because there is nobody in between those two people.

But if you think about how we take what another person says from their mouths into our minds, we have to take what we hear and attempt to translate that into what has meaning for us from our perspectives looking outward from our own experiences of ourselves and the world. In other words, we have to translate, from their worlds into ours. It has to pass from their reality, into ours with our mind's points of views.

That requires a mediation between them, and us. And that meditator is language, and experience. It is us trying to find a "common ground" between them and us. That means, that everything that comes from their minds into ours, is mediated through these mechanisms.

Everything we think, what we reason, what we process, that comes from outside us into us, is in fact, a mediated reality. There is no direct mind-dump from them into us. We have to infer, assump, guess at, and attempt to clarify their understanding, into ours. You should understand that in our conversations. They are all mediated between your understanding of the world, to mine.

There is no such thing as direct, even at the highest levels of reality, including direct communication with God. It is, at the highest possible, a mediated reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Truthseeker9

Being close to God is the same thing as reflecting the attributes of God. It is not a feeling, though if you are close to God, you are more likely to feel close to God. We don't always know when we are reflecting the attributes of God, either, because we can deceive ourselves. A feeling does not tell us exactly how close to God we are, but it can tell us we are on the right track.

Okay thanks. Dale once told me that often it is the people who are closest to God that say they are not close to God and vice versa, because humble people do not think they are close to God. Logically speaking, that does not mean that nobody who says they are close to God is really close to God, only that some people might not be even if they think they are.

You said: “It is not a feeling, though if you are close to God, you are more likely to feel close to God.” But logically speaking, someone might not FEEL close to God even if they are close to God. When I say I am not close to God that is because I am angry at God a lot, but I have also been angry at my husband although I am very close to him. Feelings (emotions) are rarely a true indicator of what is going on because they go against the rational mind. Logically speaking, if I was not close to God at all why would I be willing to spend every waking hour talking about God and Baha’u’llah? That makes no sense at all. I would rather be doing the things others do, believe me, but I consider this my responsibility because God said so. Likewise, sometimes I think I would be happier married to someone else who would do more to help me in practical matters, just like I sometimes wish I had another God who would do more to help me, but that does not mean I do not love Lewis or God, or that I want another man or another God... These are just feelings and they can lead us astray so easily. God gave us a rational mind to use.

What I mean, of course, is that we commune with the Holy Spirit.

Well, I guess that is okay as long as you do not think it is living inside your body, as Christians believe (indwelling) because Abdu’l-Baha clearly explained that is not possible, or what the scriptures mean.

I do not know how you do that, I guess you do it in prayer and/or meditation. I guess if I made an effort I could do it too.

You believe in Baha'u'llah, do you believe God is lying through Baha'u'llah? You are in bad shape if you do. No wonder you cannot commune with God. You misunderstand Him. My communing with God is not going very well lately either. I feel far from God. I'm having my doubts about religion.

Well, what I meant is that justice has yet to be established in this world. Of course I fully believe it will be because of what Baha’u’llah wrote and did. There are already signs of it but justice is swimming against a strong tide of injustice so it won’t be easy. But just from this last school shooting I see a change in the direction and something could come out of it because people are speaking out against injustice, they are fed up.

I am sorry you feel far from God but believe me it does not mean you ARE far... Remember what Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Meditate on what the poet hath written: “Wonder not, if my Best-Beloved be closer to me than mine own self; wonder at this, that I, despite such nearness, should still be so far from Him.”… Considering what God hath revealed, that “We are closer to man than his life-vein,” the poet hath, in allusion to this verse, stated that, though the revelation of my Best-Beloved hath so permeated my being that He is closer to me than my life-vein, yet, notwithstanding my certitude of its reality and my recognition of my station, I am still so far removed from Him. By this he meaneth that his heart, which is the seat of the All-Merciful and the throne wherein abideth the splendor of His revelation, is forgetful of its Creator, hath strayed from His path, hath shut out itself from His glory, and is stained with the defilement of earthly desires.

It should be remembered in this connection that the one true God is in Himself exalted beyond and above proximity and remoteness. His reality transcendeth such limitations. His relationship to His creatures knoweth no degrees. That some are near and others are far is to be ascribed to the manifestations themselves.

That the heart is the throne, in which the Revelation of God the All-Merciful is centered, is attested by the holy utterances which We have formerly revealed.

Among them is this saying: “Earth and heaven cannot contain Me; what can alone contain Me is the heart of him that believeth in Me, and is faithful to My Cause.” How often hath the human heart, which is the recipient of the light of God and the seat of the revelation of the All-Merciful, erred from Him Who is the Source of that light and the Well Spring of that revelation. It is the waywardness of the heart that removeth it far from God, and condemneth it to remoteness from Him. Those hearts, however, that are aware of His Presence, are close to Him, and are to be regarded as having drawn nigh unto His throne.

Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 185-186

16. O SON OF LIGHT!
Forget all save Me and commune with My spirit. This is of the essence of My command, therefore turn unto it.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I think you better be close to God, and commune with the Holy Spirit if you believe in Baha'u'llah.

It is one thing we are supposed to do but not the only thing and according to Baha’u’llah it is not the most important thing:

“O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 330

They are not imagining it mostly, but they don't realize that they are communing with the Holy Spirit and not God. It is not selfish to want to be close to God. Baha'u'llah says this:

4. O SON OF JUSTICE!
Whither can a lover go but to the land of his beloved? and what seeker findeth rest away from his heart's desire? To the true lover reunion is life, and separation is death. His breast is void of patience and his heart hath no peace. A myriad lives he would forsake to hasten to the abode of his beloved.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

To be selfish is to put oneself before God and other people. It is not selfish to want to be close to God. You can serve mankind and at the same time be close to God. If you serve mankind you are closer to God.

I agree. You can do both. But given all the exigencies of my daily life I have to prioritize and right now it is more important to proclaim the Faith than have a personal connection to God. I also have the 11 cats and the three houses and tenants to contend with as well as a full time job and a three hour bike commute to work. If I commune with God, it is on my bike ride because I am alone and can’t go on a computer!

The trouble with me right now, is that I don't serve mankind and so I am far from God. I don't like being retired, and going on forums and making a fool of myself. I am not serving God by being on forums. I don't like the people there, except for a few. I don't like you right now, I don't like myself, and I don't like my wife.

There is no reason to think you have to be working to serve mankind. Lewis sometimes says he thinks he should be working but I don’t think so. He is way past the age where he needs to be working and we do not need the money. You are also of full retirement age so you should not feel guilty about not working or that you are not useful. I am about your age and I could retire now but I cannot decide to so I will keep working until I have a clear plan, especially regarding health care. It puts a stress on me having to get up so early but that is the only real stress since my job is very easy for me since I know it so well, and I have great people to work with. I am on a 3 ½ week vacation at home now and it is nice not having to get up at 5 am but at least now I know I could retire if I want to. However, I won’t be making any big decisions like that until the rental houses and tenants are more stable. They were stable once so they can be stable again. It is just a lot of work

I think I can understand how you feel. When I am depressed I feel pretty worthless, but that does not mean I am worthless, and neither are you When I am depressed I do not like anyone that much either. I am sorry I came down on you so bad. I have been so depressed about the houses and I have been unable to decide what to do about renting to that man. I have to decide this week though because otherwise he will find another rental. I hope that I will feel better after I make the decision and he moves in. This has been such a heavy burden, but then I still have to deal with those tenants who left without paying the six months rent and that will probably mean going to small claims court. As I told Lewis this morning, if I had no houses I would have nothing to be depressed about, because that is my entire burden. But there is really nothing I can do about that right now except face it square on and get through it. That is the rational thing to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

In order to serve others, being close to God is a necessity. It's like putting on your oxygen mask first before concern for others, because without that oxygen for yourself, you can help no one else. Seeking God first, is not an act of selfishness, but an act of Love.

As I just told Duane (Truthseeker9) I do not think it is selfish to want to be close to God but if one only has so many hours in a day they have to prioritize, self or other?

I think one can still be of service to others even if they do not FEEL close to God because service is an action and it can be done regardless of how we feel... For example, I do not feel like dealing with a prospective tenant but it is the right thing to do to not leave him dangling in midair anymore, so I will deal with him this next week.

So I can be mad at God and still serve God because I can rise above my feelings and do the right thing.

You see, in my heart of hearts I know I am wrong and God is right, it is just my ego that gets in the way.

 

[Trailblazer]

But if you think about how we take what another person says from their mouths into our minds, we have to take what we hear and attempt to translate that into what has meaning for us from our perspectives looking outward from our own experiences of ourselves and the world. In other words, we have to translate, from their worlds into ours. It has to pass from their reality, into ours with our mind's points of views.

That requires a mediation between them, and us. And that meditator is language, and experience. It is us trying to find a "common ground" between them and us. That means, that everything that comes from their minds into ours, is mediated through these mechanisms.

Everything we think, what we reason, what we process, that comes from outside us into us, is in fact, a mediated reality. There is no direct mind-dump from them into us. We have to infer, assump, guess at, and attempt to clarify their understanding, into ours. You should understand that in our conversations. They are all mediated between your understanding of the world, to mine.

I understand what you are saying and you have a valid point. Even if communication is directly to us we see it through the filter of our own understanding according to our own thoughts and experiences.

There is no such thing as direct, even at the highest levels of reality, including direct communication with God. It is, at the highest possible, a mediated reality.

That is true. Communication to Messengers of God is mediated by the Holy Spirit. At least that is according to my understanding

 

[Windwalker]

That is true. Communication to Messengers of God is mediated by the Holy Spirit. At least that is according to my understanding

And what does that mean to you? How does that work? Is the Holy Spirit some separate entity that acts as an agent, a go-between? How do you envision what that looks like?

 

[Windwalker]

As I just told Duane (Truthseeker9) I do not think it is selfish to want to be close to God but if one only has so many hours in a day they have to prioritize, self or other?

It may only take some dedicated space for some time to be able to work with our own obstacles, to learn them, to recognize them, and to deal with them when they arise. After that, you just sort of know how to get that bicycle balanced when you hop on in order to know how to ride. After that, riding is easy. You know intuitively what that feels like.

I think one can still be of service to others even if they do not FEEL close to God because service is an action and it can be done regardless of how we feel... For example, I do not feel like dealing with a prospective tenant but it is the right thing to do to not leave him dangling in midair anymore, so I will deal with him this next week.

Sometimes we have to see the larger picture to rise above our discomforts of the moment.

So I can be mad at God and still serve God because I can rise above my feelings and do the right thing.

Well, if you're mad at God, I'd suggest pausing there and examining why. Just acting out of a sense of obligation, is not the same thing as acting out of genuine love. It is okay however to feel anger.

You see, in my heart of hearts I know I am wrong and God is right, it is just my ego that gets in the way.

The challenge is that when you still feel an injustice. It doesn't matter what your reasoning may say, when you feel a wrong. You ultimately have to reconcile your emotions with your intellect, not repress them.

 

[Truthseeker]

How is the Holy Spirit not God? God is Spirit. That is the Being and Essence of God, God expressing God as God. How do you see this?


In order to serve others, being close to God is a necessity. It's like putting on your oxygen mask first before concern for others, because without that oxygen for yourself, you can help no one else. Seeking God first, is not an act of selfishness, but an act of Love.

The Holy Spirit is the attributes of God such as love and mercy. God the essence is beyond all that. He is unknowable. I fully agree with that God is a necessity for all else in life.

 

[Trailblazer]

And what does that mean to you? How does that work? Is the Holy Spirit some separate entity that acts as an agent, a go-between? How do you envision what that looks like?

I have no idea since it does not come to ME but I do not envision it as an entity anyone can see with physical eyes. All I have are the way that Baha'u'llah described it coming to Him. There are many passages, some much longer, but here is one of the shorty passages I like:

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104

 

[Trailblazer]

It may only take some dedicated space for some time to be able to work with our own obstacles, to learn them, to recognize them, and to deal with them when they arise. After that, you just sort of know how to get that bicycle balanced when you hop on in order to know how to ride. After that, riding is easy. You know intuitively what that feels like.

But first you have to choose to go riding and decide who you want to go riding with.

Sometimes we have to see the larger picture to rise above our discomforts of the moment.

Sometimes, but we cannot know the future, only God can know that...
So everything we do carries a risk... Is it what we should do?

Well, if you're mad at God, I'd suggest pausing there and examining why. Just acting out of a sense of obligation, is not the same thing as acting out of genuine love. It is okay however to feel anger.

I know exactly why I am angry but it is not something I care to share on a public forum, nor do I have a magic wand that will make it go away. I might discuss it privately but I do not have a lot of time for Conversations. Again, I consider other peoples’ needs more important than my own.

A person can have love and anger and it can vacillate back and forth, but regardless of that I do what I think is right. I do not let my feelings control me. Genuine love for God may never come; meanwhile I am going to do what Baha’u’llah enjoined me to do.

The challenge is that when you still feel an injustice. It doesn't matter what your reasoning may say, when you feel a wrong. You ultimately have to reconcile your emotions with your intellect, not repress them.

The very last thing I ever do is repress my emotions about God but that does not mean I can reconcile them. Too much damage has been done, but I do not expect you to understand that since we all have a different life history. Suffice to say most people with mine would be dead by now or at the very least they would be an atheist.

Of course as we say in religious circles, anything is possible with God. I have just never been one to get my hopes up. Meanwhile, I can be a help to those who have similar emotions... That is the good that comes out of it... It is called compassion.

 

[Truthseeker]

16. O SON OF LIGHT!
Forget all save Me and commune with My spirit. This is of the essence of My command, therefore turn unto it.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I think you better be close to God, and commune with the Holy Spirit if you believe in Baha'u'llah.

It is one thing we are supposed to do but not the only thing and according to Baha’u’llah it is not the most important thing:

“O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 330

It is the most important thing. Remember that Baha'u'llah said that it is the essence of my command, and that includes teaching. If you're close to God you will teach better. Like Windwalker said it is a necessity to be close to God, experience the love of God, so you can pass it on to those that you are teaching. I don't know what you need to do to feel closer to God, though. You could feel closer to God through service to mankind, remember work is worship. Part of the purpose of the obligitory prayer and saying Allah-u-Abha 95 times is to get closer to God. Since you have trouble in the day fitting in your teaching in the forums plus going to work and your other responsibilities maybe you can't meditate right now. You can meditiate when you retire, though, and that might not be far away.

I'm quitting the forums as I said in the Opinion forum, but I don't know what I am going to do with myself other than a lot of reading and watching TV. But overall I think I'll be better off, because of my deficiencies in handling all of the posters. In spite of what I said earlier, I do like and love you and feel close to you. I also like my wife usually and love my wife and feel close to her. Maybe you should send a private message in response to what I said to you here and in the opinion forum. I don't want to come back to the forums again.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Truthseeker9

16. O SON OF LIGHT!
Forget all save Me and commune with My spirit. This is of the essence of My command, therefore turn unto it. (Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I think you better be close to God, and commune with the Holy Spirit if you believe in Baha'u'llah.

I cannot force myself to want to be close to God. I think you already know some of the reasons.

It is the most important thing. Remember that Baha'u'llah said that it is the essence of my command, and that includes teaching. If you're close to God you will teach better. Like Windwalker said it is a necessity to be close to God, experience the love of God, so you can pass it on to those that you are teaching.

I do not think it is necessary to be close to God and experience the love of God love in order to share the Baha’i beliefs, especially when the people I am sharing them with are not even believers and many do not like God... The very last thing they wanted to hear about on BUE for example, was how close to God I was, how much I loved God. Don’t you remember the flak you got when you said you loved God and God loves us? The only reason any of those nonbelievers even listened to me about Baha’i is because I understood how they felt about God and I could empathize. The ball is now in their court. Those nonbelievers need our help a lot more than Christians and Jews who already believe in God and who are mired in their own religious traditions. I now feel really bad for having abandoned them.

Do you really think my loving God is going to help other people love God? They either love God or not and that is a very personal thing, between themselves and God... I am sure that somewhere in the Writings it says that.

Here is what it says is the requirement for teaching:

“Whoso ariseth among you to teach the Cause of his Lord, let him, before all else, teach his own self, that his speech may attract the hearts of them that hear him. Unless he teacheth his own self, the words of his mouth will not influence the heart of the seeker. Take heed, O people, lest ye be of them that give good counsel to others but forget to follow it themselves. The words of such as these, and beyond the words the realities of all things, and beyond these realities the angels that are nigh unto God, bring against them the accusation of falsehood.

Should such a man ever succeed in influencing any one, this success should be attributed not to him, but rather to the influence of the words of God, as decreed by Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Wise. In the sight of God he is regarded as a lamp that imparteth its light, and yet is all the while being consumed within itself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 277

Then you have to ask what it means by “teach his own self.” It does not say anything about loving God.

I don't know what you need to do to feel closer to God, though. You could feel closer to God through service to mankind, remember work is worship. Part of the purpose of the obligitory prayer and saying Allah-u-Abha 95 times is to get closer to God. Since you have trouble in the day fitting in your teaching in the forums plus going to work and your other responsibilities maybe you can't meditate right now. You can meditiate when you retire, though, and that might not be far away.

As with anything in life, I would first have to want to get close to God. For that I would have to change what I think about God and that is not so easy. I see too much suffering in this world to believe that God is benevolent. It just makes no logical sense so I cannot just believe it because it says that in the Writings.

I'm quitting the forums as I said in the Opinion forum, but I don't know what I am going to do with myself other than a lot of reading and watching TV. But overall I think I'll be better off, because of my deficiencies in handling all of the posters. In spite of what I said earlier, I do like and love you and feel close to you. I also like my wife usually and love my wife and feel close to her. Maybe you should send a private message in response to what I said to you here and in the opinion forum. I don't want to come back to the forums again.

I think you know what you need to do and I am not worried about you because I know you will be okay, because you are close to God and you have your belief in Baha’u’llah. I am sorry if I have been short lately. I have been under a lot of stress with the house issues.

I have not gone to read on the Opinion forum yet. If you send me a Private Message on Delphi then I can respond to that. I just have been unable to initiate messages on their new system.

I never read ahead in these posts so I already wrote this in a Word document before I saw what you just said so I will post it and copy what I posted and send it to you in a Private Message.

 

[Windwalker]

The only reason any of those nonbelievers even listened to me about Baha’i is because I understood how they felt about God and I could empathize.

I think it holds true for others who are willing to hear about how you think and believe about God, because they empathize from their own feelings about God with yours. To me, God transcends our beliefs and we mustn't let those interfere in showing respect to another's soul. It not what we believe in that matters, but how, with what heart and soul. The what is far less important than the why and how. When we get hung up on having the right answers, we miss the Truth we already have.

As with anything in life, I would first have to want to get close to God. For that I would have to change what I think about God and that is not so easy.

Exactly. You've heard me speak from my own experience that sometimes how what we once thought about God may have been helpful to us, but later that same thinking interferes. It is better to approach God saying, "I don't know anything. I give up" rather than saying, "I'm trying my hardest to figure it out. Maybe I'm not trying hard enough or something."

Think of it like catching a ball tossed to you. You have to let go of what you're currently holding in your hands in order for them to be free to catch what is being offered you.

I see too much suffering in this world to believe that God is benevolent. It just makes no logical sense so I cannot just believe it because it says that in the Writings.

This is why sometimes it becomes necessary to change how we believe about things. The trick to that is self-honesty and self-integrity. Sometimes, in order to be true, it means abandoning a belief. What you are describing here, accurately reflects my own history, just in slightly different context.

There is something I am feeling here in reading you expressing your thoughts honestly. Have you ever heard of the Dark Night of the Soul? This is what I am sensing is going on for you. It's a hard place to be sure. But I think it may help you to have an understanding of what that is. You've been talking with me recently, and I can recognize this in you from my own experience of this for many years of my life, now coming out on the other side of that.

Here's an excerpt of something brief talking about this: https://www.eckharttolle.com/newsletter/october-2011

The “dark night of the soul” is a term that goes back a long time. Yes, I have also experienced it. It is a term used to describe what one could call a collapse of a perceived meaning in life…an eruption into your life of a deep sense of meaninglessness. The inner state in some cases is very close to what is conventionally called depression. Nothing makes sense anymore, there’s no purpose to anything. Sometimes it’s triggered by some external event, some disaster perhaps, on an external level. The death of someone close to you could trigger it, especially premature death, for example if your child dies. Or you had built up your life, and given it meaning – and the meaning that you had given your life, your activities, your achievements, where you are going, what is considered important, and the meaning that you had given your life for some reason collapses.

It can happen if something happens that you can’t explain away anymore, some disaster which seems to invalidate the meaning that your life had before. Really what has collapsed then is the whole conceptual framework for your life, the meaning that your mind had given it. So that results in a dark place. But people have gone into that, and then there is the possibility that you emerge out of that into a transformed state of consciousness. Life has meaning again, but it’s no longer a conceptual meaning that you can necessarily explain. Quite often it’s from there that people awaken out of their conceptual sense of reality, which has collapsed.
​

There is more to read from that that may be well worth your while. I would say it accurately reflects my own "crisis of faith" that I went through, and particularly now awakening on the other side of that when he says above, "you emerge out of that into a transformed state of consciousness. Life has meaning again, but it’s no longer a conceptual meaning that you can necessarily explain." You're hearing me speak from that place in my posts with you.

As I said, you find sometimes, it's our beliefs that stand in the way of being close to God. "I no longer believe," may actually be the first step to finding God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it holds true for others who are willing to hear about how you think and believe about God, because they empathize from their own feelings about God with yours. To me, God transcends our beliefs and we mustn't let those interfere in showing respect to another's soul. It not what we believe in that matters, but how, with what heart and soul. The what is far less important than the why and how. When we get hung up on having the right answers, we miss the Truth we already have.

To me, the most direct way to know about God is from what a Manifestation of God reveals about God, although we can also know by looking at creation of which we are a part.

You are right though... when it comes to God, what matters most is how we believe, with what heart and soul. Baha’u’llah said that.

“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue. Thus hath it been ordained by the Fingers of Bahá, upon the Tablet of God’s irrevocable decree, by the behest of Him Who is the Supreme Ordainer, the All-Knowing.” Gleanings, p. 279

Loving God transcends beliefs...

Exactly. You've heard me speak from my own experience that sometimes how what we once thought about God may have been helpful to us, but later that same thinking interferes. It is better to approach God saying, "I don't know anything. I give up" rather than saying, "I'm trying my hardest to figure it out. Maybe I'm not trying hard enough or something."

Think of it like catching a ball tossed to you. You have to let go of what you're currently holding in your hands in order for them to be free to catch what is being offered you.

It is not what I think about God according to my religious beliefs that cause trouble; rather, it is my own thinking about God that goes against my religious beliefs that causes my trouble.

What I think about God is not very helpful but it is still my thinking.

This is why sometimes it becomes necessary to change how we believe about things. The trick to that is self-honesty and self-integrity. Sometimes, in order to be true, it means abandoning a belief. What you are describing here, accurately reflects my own history, just in slightly different context.

There is something I am feeling here in reading you expressing your thoughts honestly. Have you ever heard of the Dark Night of the Soul? This is what I am sensing is going on for you. It's a hard place to be sure. But I think it may help you to have an understanding of what that is. You've been talking with me recently, and I can recognize this in you from my own experience of this for many years of my life, now coming out on the other side of that.

Here's an excerpt of something brief talking about this: https://www.eckharttolle.com/newsletter/october-2011

The “dark night of the soul” is a term that goes back a long time. Yes, I have also experienced it. It is a term used to describe what one could call a collapse of a perceived meaning in life…an eruption into your life of a deep sense of meaninglessness. The inner state in some cases is very close to what is conventionally called depression. Nothing makes sense anymore, there’s no purpose to anything. Sometimes it’s triggered by some external event, some disaster perhaps, on an external level. The death of someone close to you could trigger it, especially premature death, for example if your child dies. Or you had built up your life, and given it meaning – and the meaning that you had given your life, your activities, your achievements, where you are going, what is considered important, and the meaning that you had given your life for some reason collapses.

It can happen if something happens that you can’t explain away anymore, some disaster which seems to invalidate the meaning that your life had before. Really what has collapsed then is the whole conceptual framework for your life, the meaning that your mind had given it. So that results in a dark place. But people have gone into that, and then there is the possibility that you emerge out of that into a transformed state of consciousness. Life has meaning again, but it’s no longer a conceptual meaning that you can necessarily explain. Quite often it’s from there that people awaken out of their conceptual sense of reality, which has collapsed.

There is more to read from that that may be well worth your while. I would say it accurately reflects my own "crisis of faith" that I went through, and particularly now awakening on the other side of that when he says above, "you emerge out of that into a transformed state of consciousness. Life has meaning again, but it’s no longer a conceptual meaning that you can necessarily explain." You're hearing me speak from that place in my posts with you.

Thanks. I cannot recall if I told you my spiritual experience story, but suffice to say I have seen the “dark night of the soul” and I came out on the other side about four years ago. Because of that I know what the purpose of my life is and there is no returning to my old life... That does not mean that I am in a state of bliss all the time because that is not the nature of this mortal world, nor is it my personality. I am genetically predisposed to depression and anxiety and have certain life situations that I have to deal with that are dragging me down right now but I will get through them in due time as I always have. Suffice to say my life is way too complicated for someone my age but I really cannot change it so I just hang on to the sides of the boat and ride out the frequent storms till they blow over. I am in one right now.

That just brought to mind a passage that explains what I am trying to say, with so much difficulty:

“In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.....

“Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.

There is no human being untouched by these two influences; but all the sorrow and the grief that exist come from the world of matter—the spiritual world bestows only the joy!

If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.....” Paris Talks, pp. 109-110

Suffice to say, it is the world of matter that is causing ALL my pain...

As I said, you find sometimes, it's our beliefs that stand in the way of being close to God. "I no longer believe," may actually be the first step to finding God.

I have heard that from many people, but I do not think that is my problem. My problem is my feelings towards God which go against my beliefs. It is difficult to separate the world of matter that God created from the God who created it. The only thing I can do is try to ride out the storm till I get to the shore on the other side.

 

[dfnj]

The trouble with me right now, is that I don't serve mankind and so I am far from God. I don't like being retired, and going on forums and making a fool of myself. I am not serving God by being on forums. I don't like the people there, except for a few. I don't like you right now, I don't like myself, and I don't like my wife.

Happiness is not too hard to find. Keep it very simple. There are two things that give me happiness. A simple act of kindness for someone with no expectations of anything in return sometimes works if it makes the other person happy. I get happy when I help other people find happiness. My other thing is playing games of chance with friends. Sometimes you lose. But when you win playing games of chance it's very satisfying even though it's fleeting. Not gambling but card and board games.

If those two don't work find a job or create a business. There's always drama in working.

 

[Trailblazer]

Happiness is not too hard to find. Keep it very simple. There are two things that give me happiness. A simple act of kindness for someone with no expectations of anything in return sometimes works if it makes the other person happy. I get happy when I help other people find happiness. My other thing is playing games of chance with friends. Sometimes you lose. But when you win playing games of chance it's very satisfying even though it's fleeting. Not gambling but card and board games.

If those two don't work find a job or create a business. There's always drama in working.

The only thing that makes me happy is helping other people, however I can. I have no social life to speak of, no close friends, except online... I have my cats and other outdoor animals that bring me joy when I have the time to be with them...

I used to enjoy card games and board games but those days are long gone because I have no time at all.

 

[Windwalker]

I have heard that from many people, but I do not think that is my problem. My problem is my feelings towards God which go against my beliefs.

This of course creates a crisis of faith. Our heart says something that don't mesh well with what our beliefs tell us something contrary. For instance, someone believing God has a plan for everything in life, and that his love for them will protect them from misery if they are true to God. Then some tragedy strikes. Their 3 year old is killed, or some other senseless thing which cannot be reconciled with that belief and expectation they have of God.

The choice can be to attempt to repress that overwhelming reality of pain, loss, and confusion, saying "The problem is me right now, because my religion told me God will never leave me or forsake me," and they reject the validity of this painful experience that doesn't make sense at all on any level. Or, they could instead say, "Maybe how I was understanding things about God before may have been in error, either in how I was wanting to think about God, or that they just don't get it themselves". The latter is much harder and scarier to face.

Not only do you end up with something that challenges any attempt to make sense of it in your life, you also end up facing a possible loss of faith itself as you find yourself with no structure of faith to try to make sense of the world. Not only did they lose their child, but their belief system too. A double loss.

And this sort of thing can in fact actually be what is necessary to get closer to God. Often times we put our belief systems in front of God, never trusting that the reality of God is bigger than our religions, never trusting ourselves in the face of crises. It doesn't necessarily means losing our religion, but it can in fact mean growing our understanding up a little bit and letting go of some of the ways we used to think, now that we have this missing piece of reality to consider. Your feelings today are not wrong. They are informative. Courage to face the harder questions is an act of faith, IMHO.

The problem isn't having conflicting thoughts and feelings. The problem would be to deny them and assume they are at fault. That will only work for so long until it can no longer be denied. And that to me, is how God brings us closer to him. Doubt serves faith to refine faith to include the whole of our lived experiences, including those that fly in the face of our long-held and most cherished beliefs.