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Featured How God’s Kingdom Will Come—Not What You Think!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    In the video David C. Pack says that Jesus will build the Kingdom of God on earth, but Jesus never said He was going to return to earth to build the Kingdom of God.

    Those who know anything of the Bible know that Jesus never promised to return, not once in the New Testament. Jesus told His followers to pray for the Kingdom to come, and indicated that it will come because it is God’s Will.

    Matthew 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    In the video David C. Pack says “vast numbers today are looking for and desiring Christ’s coming... They do desire it and it’s obvious why. This world has endless problems and is spiraling out of control. People know Christ must come soon or there will be no planet to come to.”

    I agree that the Kingdom of God must come soon or there will be no planet to come to.

    But desiring something is not going to make it happen. Jesus never promised to return to earth. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, John 17:11). Moreover, when Jesus died on the cross Jesus said “It is finished” (John 19:30).

    Not only that, but Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this world and Jesus denied being a king (John 18:36-37).

    Jesus never said He is bringing a Kingdom at all, not once in the entire New Testament. This really bothers me because I consider it a complete fabrication and a distortion of Jesus’ own words.

    In the video David C. Pack says “the apostles knew the tiny nature of the Kingdom at its outset. God’s Kingdom is akin to microscopic when it arrives. It eventually grows into a world government but it doesn’t start that way. Jesus said literally He is bringing an encrypted Kingdom.”

    I fully agree that God’s Kingdom will be microscopic when it arrives, but it will eventually grow into a world government. However, Jesus never “literally said” He is bringing an encrypted Kingdom. In fact, Jesus never said that He was bringing in a Kingdom at all.

    In the video David C. Pack says “Christ’s Message is clear, God’s Kingdom starts tiny and hidden, and you must find it.”

    I fully agree that God’s Kingdom starts tiny and hidden, and you must find it. That indicates that it might already be right under our noses and most people have not found it.

    In the video David C. Pack says there are four components to a kingdom

    1. Land, property, or territory
    2. A ruler or a king
    3. People or subjects
    4. A system of laws or rules

    I agree that there will be four components to the Kingdom of God, but I do not agree there will be one ruler who will rule like an earthly king

    In summation, I agree with much of what David C. Pack says on the video. I believe that the Kingdom of God will come to earth in a similar fashion to what he depicted. The salient problem is that Jesus will not be the one bringing the Kingdom of God to earth because that cannot be reconciled to the words Jesus spoke in the New Testament.

    So as I see it we have a choice: We can either believe what the New Testament says or we can believe what Christianity teaches. Both cannot be true since they are contradictory.
     
    #1 Trailblazer, Feb 24, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  2. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

    Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

    Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Consider these instead

    Armageddon and the 7 Last Plagues:



    Hope For The Millennium & Revelation's Grand Finale:

     
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  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Jesus will not return to earth in person, but he will return, as promised... a second time. However, the kingdom rules from heaven, and is ruled by the reigning king, the Christ, in his heavenly glory, along with 144,000 kings... according to scripture.

    (Matthew 24:30) Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    (Matthew 25:31, 32) 31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

    (Matthew 26:64) Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.

    (Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

    (Luke 23:42) . . .“Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.
    (Ephesians 5:5) . . .the Kingdom of the Christ and of God.
    (John 18:36) . . .Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.”
    (Revelation 11:15) . . .“The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.
     
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  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Context is everything. Read on and you will see that these verses have nothing to do with Jesus returning to earth after He died on the cross.

    Luke 19:12-15
    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
    13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
    15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

    Jesus did not say He would come to earth again in the same body. This verse means that Jesus will come to them again “in spirit” so the disciples could be with Him in spirit.

    This cannot mean Jesus was coming to earth to receive the disciples because where Jesus was preparing a place was in heaven, on not earth.

    That is besides that fact that the disciples were dead when this was written so Jesus could not have received them unto Himself anywhere but heaven since heaven is where souls go when they die.
    With all due respect, this verse is not Jesus saying He would return to earth. Below is my interpretation of those that verse in context.

    Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

    It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits whereas the disciples couldn’t.

    Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. It was another human who was slated to descend in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If you do not believe that Jesus will return in person, how do you believe He will return?
    What us the scripture that supports that belief?
    Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


    Did anyone ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?” Not once in the entire NT did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth. I have discussed this with Christians for years and the verses just are not there. Christians just want it to be Jesus so they interpret verses to mean they are about Jesus. The prophecies have been fulfilled so they cannot be re-fulfilled by Jesus.

    Christians cannot answer the following questions:

    Why would Jesus keep it a secret if He had been planning to return to earth? Why did Jesus say His work was finished here (John 17:4) and He was no more in the world (John 17:11) if He was planning to return to earth? Why did Jesus say “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36) if He was planning to come back and build a kingdom on earth? When asked if He was a king, why did Jesus say explain to Pilate “To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth” (John 18:37) if Jesus was coming back to rule as a king, as Christians believe? Jesus fulfilled His purpose by bearing witness to the truth about God, so there is no reason for Jesus to return to earth a second time. These verses are clues that tell us that Jesus was never planning to return to earth to rule and build the Kingdom of God, and that means that the Messiah who would accomplish this has to be another man.

    The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah.

    To explain in brief I believe that the ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.
     
  6. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    Maybe he was referring to enlightened mind, and was hopelessly misunderstood.
    He may have been a Buddhist trying to talk sense to theists.
    Impossible to know.
     
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  7. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    it will come one at a time through self as it does in the mind = spirit as in the body = the earth

    each person is a kingdom as each aligns with another; so the kingdom of god grows through love


    revelation 11:15
     
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  8. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    I gained greater apperception for "on the clouds of heaven" meaning invisible. when one day I was driving down the road and the car a head of me disappeared in to a fog bank. I knew the car was still there even though it had disappeared from my sight . I did not need to see the car to know it was really there .
     
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  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    so it was once literal and then it became figurative?


    ever moved a mountain?


    Body like a Mountain, Heart like an Ocean, Mind like the Sky ...


    Thought Clouds — Mindful
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    According to the scriptures, Jesus promised two returns, in two ways.
    1)
    (John 14:2-4) 2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

    (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17) 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

    Thus Jesus returns, according to the angels, "in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.” - Acts 1:11.

    2)
    (Matthew 16:28-17:9)
    28Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”
    17 1 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and his brother John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. ... 9 As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”

    Some had a vision, of a symbolic representation of the coming kingdom. (Luke 9:27) But I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God.”

    (Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
    See 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
    Here Jesus returns as king to execute judgment upon the nations... according to scripture.
    (Matthew 26:64) Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
    (Mark 13:26) And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    (Luke 21:27) And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
     
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  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I think you meant, which of the scriptures support the view that Jesus will not return to earth in person, but he will return, as promised... a second time. The scriptures in the post above, show Jesus promised to return... as king of God's kingdom - see scriptures in this link.

    I can only go by what the scriptures say.
    Your interpretation is just an interpretation.
    I take the scriptures to be true, not the interpretation of them. (Romans 3:4) But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar,. . .

    According to you, "Christians just want it to be Jesus so they interpret verses to mean they are about Jesus. The prophecies have been fulfilled so they cannot be re-fulfilled by Jesus."
    According to scripture...
    (Matthew 24:30, 31) 30 . . .the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

    Who is the son of man, in this case, according to scripture? This is a question to you please.

    (Matthew 8:19, 20) 19 And a scribe came up and said to him: “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 But Jesus said to him: “Foxes have dens and birds of heaven have nests, but the Son of man has nowhere to lay down his head.”
    (Matthew 9:6) However, in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” then he said to the paralytic: “Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.”
    (Matthew 10:23) When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
    (Matthew 11:18, 19) 18 Likewise, John came neither eating nor drinking, but people say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of man did come eating and drinking, but people say, ‘Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”
    (Matthew 12:8) For the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
    (Matthew 12:32) For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.
    (Matthew 12:40) For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

    I don't want to fill the page with 80 scriptures, where Jesus used the expression, "son of man", so I will just conclude with his revealing the identity of the son of man, as mentioned over 80 times in the Gospels.

    (Matthew 16:13-17) 13 When he had come into the region of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.

    Seems plain to see, Jesus directly identified himself as the son of man.
    Of course, you know people say Bahais interpret the scriptures to suit Their beliefs in Bahaullah's teachings.
    I have said this myself. Does it not appear to be the case, to you?
     
    #11 nPeace, Feb 25, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
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  12. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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  13. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    No!

    Your mythical "god" or "son of "god"" will NOT ever be coming back.

    He was suppose to have returned WITHIN THE LIFETIME of his direct disciples. He did NOT. So the entire myth is dead, nowhere, kaput, and you've all been lied to ever since.

    Matthew 24:25-34
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    *********************
    Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Luke 9:27 - But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
     
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  14. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    behold I AM with you always.
     
  15. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    It never fails to amaze me how all those brainwashed minds can come up with the most bizarre theories to make their failed convoluted mythologies "work" somehow. Here's another tip, try patching up all your religions flaws with duct tape, it fixes most everything. In fact, put duct tape over every single page, then yo won't have it keep inventing all these crazy theories to make it "work" somehow.
     
  16. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    just how far into the clouds of heaven can you see ?
     
  17. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    Typical straw man reply of avoidance.

    You go from taking a phrase out of the bible into a car driving into a dense fog and make up some crazy theory that is what "on the clouds of heaven" means, it doesn't.

    The phrase starts with "ON" , and not "IN". Do you comprehend the difference?
     
  18. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    like you, there was a time when I did not understand that clouds refer to some thing being concealed/invisible . Jesus is now sets in kingdom power and can be known because of the things that we would see happening in this time .
     
  19. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    Wooooosh....

    Did you hear that??!!

    It was the sound of my point going over your head about the difference between "ON" and "IN" a cloud that you got mixed up!

    Jesus was supposed to come back ON a cloud. So quit making up lies to make your mythology work, it doesn't.
     
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  20. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    on or in is irrelevant . its the cloud that's the concealing element even as it was when he ascended .Acts 1:9
    9" After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. "
    he was not on the cloud but in it .
    even as a car going down the road can no longer be seen if concealed by fog.
     
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