How Does The Traditional Concept of Sin Account For Pyscosis?

[MSizer]

If you're a Jew, Muslim or Christian, and believe that all good comes from God, and that evil is the product of people's impure choices, how do you account for people with psychosis or psycopathy? Are they predestined to go to Hell from the moment they're born? If not, how can it be true that those of us who commit sin do so willingly, and that we will be punished for it? Surely you can't believe that people like Ted Bundy do what they do simply because they think it would be fun.

 

[Beyondo]

If you're a Jew, Muslim or Christian, and believe that all good comes from God, and that evil is the product of people's impure choices, how do you account for people with psychosis or psycopathy? Are they predestined to go to Hell from the moment they're born? If not, how can it be true that those of us who commit sin do so willingly, and that we will be punished for it? Surely you can't believe that people like Ted Bundy do what they do simply because they think it would be fun.

Actually the functional capability of schizophrenics has long been established, e.g. John Nash, before he completely lost it and then regained it. Such mental disturbance doesn't disallow the biology to adapt. In fact religion provides a means for schizophrenics to cope with thier mental disease by providing a socially accepted rational explanation for their delusions! But this is just the tip of the iceberg. What is man capable of? That spectrum of free will means that people like Ted Bundy, who do in fact enjoy what they do, is simply an adaptation. In other words just as some enjoy building RC planes for fun so too could some enjoy killing...

 

[footprints]

If you're a Jew, Muslim or Christian, and believe that all good comes from God, and that evil is the product of people's impure choices, how do you account for people with psychosis or psycopathy? Are they predestined to go to Hell from the moment they're born? If not, how can it be true that those of us who commit sin do so willingly, and that we will be punished for it? Surely you can't believe that people like Ted Bundy do what they do simply because they think it would be fun.

When you start out from an irrational premise, it rarely gets any better.

Simply put, due to the environment, every person on the planet suffers psychosis to a greater or lesser degree. The more common the insanity, in any culture or society, becomes that cultures, or that societies, measure of normal.

For most part, those people in society born with a genetic, mental impairment, are the quietest, most placid people on the planet. People like Ted Bundy, are a product of their environment, or society produced.

 

[Beyondo]

People like Ted Bundy, are a product of their environment, or society produced.

Ted Bundy wasn't a victum of abuse or poverty. He had a normal up bringing, he was however given up for adoption by his mother as an infant but was adopted by a very loving family.

 

[Sunstone]

In all likelihood, psychosis inspired portions of at least three books of the bible. Deuteronomy. Leviticus. And Revelations. Interesting stuff, psychosis.

By the way, I think the concept of sin might have its origins in experiences common to psychotics.

 

[Dunemeister]

If you're a Jew, Muslim or Christian, and believe that all good comes from God, and that evil is the product of people's impure choices, how do you account for people with psychosis or psycopathy? Are they predestined to go to Hell from the moment they're born? If not, how can it be true that those of us who commit sin do so willingly, and that we will be punished for it? Surely you can't believe that people like Ted Bundy do what they do simply because they think it would be fun.

I feel like a broken record. The word "sin" has (at least) two uses. It can refer to an individual act of wrongdoing. When you steal, you "sin" as a verb and your act of sin is "a sin" as a countable noun. "Sin" is also an uncountable noun referring to our condition as alienated from our ultimate source of life and moral direction, God.

The consequence of "sin" in the latter sense is a complete disorderment of creation. Ultimately, we die as a result of our alienation from the ultimate source of life. Death is the ultimate denial of life, and of course if we're subject to death we are also subject to all kinds of other debilitations, including physical and mental disease as well as affective disorder. Psychopathy, or at least certain forms of it, certainly numbers among those disorders/diseases.

Is such a person as Bundy predestined to hell? Well, here we have to get clear on what predestination means. The Calvinist version is not the only option. There is also the Arminian version according to which God predestines based on the deeds of people. He happens to know this ahead of time. Both versions of the theory have their philosophical conundra, but at least the Arminian version leaves room for human responsibility.

In my opinion, there's simply no way we can judge. Did Bundy do what he did because he thought it was fun? Was his psychopathy such that he couldn't overcome it even with all the supports that were available to him? Hard to say. So the responsible thing is not to pronounce judgment. Human judgment has done all it can with Bundy (although I must say we could have done more for the families of his victims).

 

[footprints]

Ted Bundy wasn't a victum of abuse or poverty. He had a normal up bringing, he was however given up for adoption by his mother as an infant but was adopted by a very loving family.

The environment impacts in strange ways on the human brain.

Your perception of Bundy's life, holds no relevance or validity, to the personal perceptions held by the mind of Bundy.

Your perception only holds relevance to you, and the way the environment has impacted on you.

 

[Beyondo]

The environment impacts in strange ways on the human brain.

Your perception of Bundy's life, holds no relevance or validity, to the personal perceptions held by the mind of Bundy.

Your perception only holds relevance to you, and the way the environment has impacted on you.

But you also said:

All brains work and function in the same way, and the signals from each are identical.

So I guess my perception do have some revelance, since as you say all brains function the same and signals are identical ...

 

[footprints]

But you also said:



So I guess my perception do have some revelance, since as you say all brains function the same and signals are identical ...

All brains do work in the same way, how do you think you gained your perceptions?

What of course you haven't gained, is Bundy's life experience and how he related and associated to it.

 

[Beyondo]

All brains do work in the same way, how do you think you gained your perceptions?

What of course you haven't gained, is Bundy's life experience and how he related and associated to it.

You have a very simplistic view of enviromental conditioning. Man is a problem sovlving ape. The environment can provide inspirations but doesn't quite explain it all. What inspires one doesn't inspire others. Look at Newton and Leibniz who indepentantly invent infinitesimal calculus. Two people from different environments. But calculus like methods were actually done before by other cultures, Egyptians, Indians, Greeks, etc. Different environments comming up with similar ideas. And yet not everyone from these environments come up with those kind of ideas. Your argument of Ted Bundy just being a product of his environment and therefore the environment is to blame for what he did is ludicrous! Human beings have a very wide spectrum of behavior which includes inventivenss and creativity. This spectrum of behavior unfortunately doesn't exclude the ability to invent ways of killing others for the sheer fun of it.

 

[MSizer]

All brains do work in the same way, how do you think you gained your perceptions?

What of course you haven't gained, is Bundy's life experience and how he related and associated to it.

That is unquestionably false. Mentally handicapped people are clearly not like most other people. All mental faculties or modules or whatever the word is that's in fashion today are subject to failing, and in some people they don't even develop to begin with.

 

[MSizer]

Actually the functional capability of schizophrenics has long been established, e.g. John Nash, before he completely lost it and then regained it. Such mental disturbance doesn't disallow the biology to adapt. In fact religion provides a means for schizophrenics to cope with thier mental disease by providing a socially accepted rational explanation for their delusions! But this is just the tip of the iceberg. What is man capable of? That spectrum of free will means that people like Ted Bundy, who do in fact enjoy what they do, is simply an adaptation. In other words just as some enjoy building RC planes for fun so too could some enjoy killing...

Yes but people who are compelled to do things that most of us find abhorrent, such as gratuitous violence don't have the same emotional makeup the rest of us have. Most of us simply could not inflict terrible pain on another person, because our empathatic emotional response would make it too difficult to go through with. The fact that someone like Bundy or Dalmer could go through with the acts they commited is clear evidence that they don't have "brains like ours" so to speak. Yes though, it is true that development, or lack thereof during childhood is a contributing factor.

 

[Beyondo]

Yes but people who are compelled to do things that most of us find abhorrent, such as gratuitous violence don't have the same emotional makeup the rest of us have. Most of us simply could not inflict terrible pain on another person, because our empathatic emotional response would make it too difficult to go through with. The fact that someone like Bundy or Dalmer could go through with the acts they commited is clear evidence that they don't have "brains like ours" so to speak. Yes though, it is true that development, or lack thereof during childhood is a contributing factor.

Unfortunately that is really a misnomer about human beings. The evidence that the species of ape called "Man" is quite capable to inflict horrible violence wihtout having any mental defecits, or lack of emotional conditioning is compelling. Ted Bundy while he was on his murderous spree had a girl friend! He never once harmed her. So Bundy could empathize emotionally if he wanted too. The Roman empire made the torturing and killing of human beings a national past time. Romans had very intimate relationships with their fellow Romans, raised children and loved thier children very much! Romans did not lack any emotional make up that a society requires for cooperative existence. So the fact is human beings can think up all kinds of things and with that genius comes a darkside, we can think up ways to kill each other for its challenge, for the need of recognition, for the need of excitement. All those motives inspire all humanity to pursue life. All thngs being equal, without emotional differences as to the ability to empathize with others suffering, murder is just but one statistical possiblity of the multifaceted ape called man...

 

[Beyondo]

Unfortunately that is really a misnomer about human beings. The evidence that the species of ape called "Man" is quite capable to inflict horrible violence wihtout having any mental defecits, or lack of emotional conditioning. Ted Bundy while he was on his murderous spree had a girl friend! He never once harmed her. So Bundy could empathize emotionally if he wanted too. The Roman empire made the torturing and killing of human beings a national past time. Romans had very intimate relationships with their fellow Romans, raised children and loved thier children very much! Romans did not lack any emotional make up that a society requires for cooperative existence. So the fact is human beings can think up all kinds of things and with that genius comes a darkside, we can think up ways to kill each other for its challenge, for the need of recognition, for the need of excitement. All those motives inspire all humanity to pursue life. All thngs being equal, without emotional differences as to the ability to empathize with others suffering, murder is just but one statiscal possiblity of the multifaceted ape called man...

I'd like to also add that what really prevents a larger following, if you will, of murder as a past time or hobby in our society is that it is a social taboo. But as with other taboos there are those who will defy such social pressure. Its all a matter of probability from the specturm of behaviors man is capable of.

 

[footprints]

That is unquestionably false. Mentally handicapped people are clearly not like most other people. All mental faculties or modules or whatever the word is that's in fashion today are subject to failing, and in some people they don't even develop to begin with.

Human perception is a model, but it works in everybody the same way, it doesn't fail.

Of the mentally impaired there are two distinct categories. Those who are genetically impaired at birth, a resultant of a mutated gene. And those who are mentally impaired by the environment. These are also models, but the models do not fail. Sometimes due to human perception, humans fail to correctly diagnose, but the model doesn't fail, only human perception.

As for the mentally handicapped not being like everybody else, I have already acknowledged that position. Those people genetically deformed at birth, i.e. diagnosed with Down's Syndrome et al, are some of the most beautiful and placid people on the planet. Those who are environmentally impaired like Ted Bundy, are some of the most violent.