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Featured How Does the Existence of God Negate Darwinian Evolution?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by SalixIncendium, Nov 22, 2020.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Do you mean the perfect mountain? Mountain and not world is the word Isaiah uses, and I agree with extending its meaning but also the rest of the terms. Here is what I think. Isaiah uses some imagery to convey a beautiful idea, and his allegory mustn't be stretched too far but extends further than just changing the word moutain. Isaiah is not a science text and is about people. The lion eats straw, meaning something unkosher becomes kosher, but Isaiah isn't concerned about lions but about people. He is imagining people becoming peaceful who once went about raging. He is speaking about the spiritual creation, a creation of God, a designed creation.
     
  2. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    I disagree.

    but I am a reasonable Christian taking that story literally. At the same time I don't believe in a lying God.

    For me, the Noah's Ark story literally happened and is true.

    It is genetic diversity that tells scientists there weren't 8 people after the flood. This is at least my understanding of the matter.

    In Genesis 11:9, we see that Bible tells God created linguistic diversity.

    However, as mentioned in this source here Language and genetics, language and genetics are linked with each other.
    So when God created the languages, he must have created genetic diversity, too, I think. At least the diversity of the genetic predisposition that favors structural features of the different languages.
    At that occasion, God might have added genetic diversity important for any other aspect of life, too.
    Maybe this even happened for the same reason as for why the diversity in language has been created.

    EDITED
     
    #102 thomas t, Nov 25, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
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  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You keep contradicting yourself. It is not reasonable to believe in a Flat Earth and your beliefs are no different from that.

    And yes, you do believe in a lying God. To understand that you would need to take a few science classes.
     
  4. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    I wasn't contradicting myself here.
    My beliefs are different from a belief in a Flat Earth, because the Flat Earth can be debunked through observation.
    Actually, I don't. And I don't think that any number of science classes would present any evidence for God having been lying if the Bible is literally true.

    Edited
     
    #104 thomas t, Nov 25, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    As can your beliefs.

    But the Bible is not literally true. If that were the case the Earth would be flat. And I doubt if you even understand the concept of evidence.

    And you contradicted yourself once again.
     
  6. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    I don't think my beliefs can be debunked through observations. And I still think the Bible can be literally true. The Bible does not indicate a flat earth apart from the poetry, prophecy or citations in it, I think.

    Actually I think I do understand the concept of evidence, I think. Last time this discussion between us went like this:
    "You don't understand this!", "I think I do!" "Noooo, you do NOT!" "I think I do!" "but nooo, you do NOT" etc.. So silly.
    I don't think I contradicted myself again.
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, we know that you believe that, but you are demonstrably wrong. And if you really believe that you understand concepts such as evidence you should not be afraid to discuss them. Last time you confirmed my claims by refusing to discuss those concepts.

    Are you ready to do so yet?
     
  8. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    If you want to discuss, ok.

    I think that last time I didn't confirm your claims by refusing to discuss those concepts. I'm not afraid to discuss them. I don't think I'm demonstrably wrong.

    Last time the discussion went like this:
    "you are demonstrably wrong" "I think I am not" "but you ARE demostrably wrong" "I think I'm not" etc.. So silly every single time...
     
  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You have to be civil and not make false claims. That is rule number one. It may have seemed that way to you, but that was only due to very biased vision on your part.

    But let's start with evidence. Do you understand that there is no reliable evidence for your creationist beliefs and literally mountains of evidence that tells us life is the product of evolution?
     
  10. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    So now our stupid "discussion" goes on...
    Actually I was civil and did not make false claims.
    And don't have that biased vision you are talking of.
    Life being the product of something refers to where life originated, as I understand it. This however is a topic called abiogenesis.

    I think there is reliable evidence for creation as a whole. There might not be evidence for the parts of it being the product of creation, though...
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, not civil at all. Just because one does not scream or curse does not mean that one is being civil.

    And no, abiogenesis only refers to first life. Evolution describes what happened after life existed.

    And you might think that there is evidence for creation, but you would be mistaken. This is where you demonstrate a lack of understanding of evidence. To have evidence one needs a testable concept. What reasonable test could.possibly refute what you call creation?
     
  12. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    This is where, IMO, you are mistaken.

    You are asking for "evidence", which is simply that which convinces.
    You are not even asking for "compelling evidence" which is that which convinces someone else.

    My question is ...
    are you asking for "evidence"?
    Or perhaps "compelling evidence"?
    Or perhaps "objective evidence"?
    Or perhaps "empirical evidence"?
    Or perhaps the bane of theists "objective empirical evidence"?

    Basically, what I am getting at is there is all manner of evidencial standards.
    Theists tend to lock onto the lowest standards because the high you go on the standards, the less likely God is involved.
    Thus you two are working from two fundamentally different ideas of what is and is not evidence.
     
  13. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Actually, I was civil I think.
    never claimed otherwise.

    --
    I think I'm not mistaken for claiming evidence for creation.

    And as I said so often: I do think I don't lack understanding of evidence.
    It is exactly as I pointed out in #106

    Last time this discussion between us went like this:
    "You don't understand this!", "I think I do!" "Noooo, you do NOT!" "I think I do!" "but nooo, you do NOT" etc.. So silly.


    That's the usual pattern for our "discussions" now.
    well, you need a falsifiable concept, as I see it.
    Many things the ToE claims are not testable science, I think. You can't test for the Last Universal Common Ancestor, for instance. Yet this one can be backed by evidence.
     
    #113 thomas t, Nov 25, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Actually you took my demand out of context. I asked for reliable evidence. It should be obvious that for scientific concepts one use scientific evidence. Also my opponent claimed to be reasonable. That again would ultimately lead to scientific evidence. A very well defined concept.
     
  15. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Well defined to those who are familiar with it.
    When ones worldview relies upon the lowest standard for evidence, the one does not seek out other standards and will often times completely reject the very existence of standards which are higher than their own.

    And to make matters even worse, you need to explicitly specify the exact standard of evidence every single time you use the word evidence.
    You miss even once and they latch onto it and there goes the discussion.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    When it comes to the sciences one needs to be careful when one claims an idea is not testable. It is almost always wiser to admit that one does not know how to test an idea.

    The Last Universal Common Ancestor is a consequence of evolution. There are ways to test the concept. That is usually done with DNA. There is no reason that DNA has to form a phylogenetic tree, if creationism is true. In fact a violation of that would be a major fail of evolution. It is one of the ways to test the theory.
     
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  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That would indicate that one's opponent was being purposefully dishonest. I tend to be overly optimistic in that regard.
     
  18. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Perhaps they are at that.
    But it is not with you directly they are being dishonest.
    When one is dishonest about content with oneself, said dishonesty spills over to others in order to maintain ones own "storyline" (for lack of a better term)
     
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Leading to the old saying "There is no such thing as an informed and honest creationist."
     
  20. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Creationists do spring to mind quickly on a religious based forum, yes.
    However, the same applies beyond creationists as well.
    Addicts also often display the same thing.
    As do many criminals.

    I have lost count of the number of people whose spouse is cheating on them who display the exact same "symptoms" (for lack of a better word)
     
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