How does the Epic of Gilgamesh discredit the story of Noah’s flood?

[MASS_debater]

People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.

I don’t know why you put scholars in quotation marks? I’m assuming that “scholars” and “scientists” agree that Noah’s flood isn’t a thing that happened in real life? That is enough for me to dismiss the flood myth off hand. Why put all this time and effort into studying something when 1000’s of “scholars” and “experts” have already studied it to death. Are you an expert? What do you or I have that “scholars” and “experts” don’t that gives any weight to our ideas. It seems really arrogant to dismiss the findings of so many people who are way smarter than us and have spent so much time studying in their respective fields that they are called experts. I’m not an expert at anything are you? If not, why are you questioning them? I don’t want to tell you your opinion but I’m assuming you think it must have been magic from God since all the “science” and “scholar” explanations say it didn’t happen. I mean you don’t even trust the experts on your own religion. That’s kind of weird don’t you think? It just seems like we’re being intentionally contradictory because what we want to be true and what all the smart people are saying doesn’t match up. I get it though I want magic to be real too. Probably get rid of a lot of Atheists or whatever if we could do some magic make a limb grow back or cure a child’s leukemia or whatever. I’d personally spend all my time traveling to children’s cancer wards. All I’m saying is that if you got one guy who isn’t an expert on anything and a guy who’s an expert on cancer in the same room and the guy with no experience tells you that you don’t have cancer and the guys who’s a cancer expert tells you that you do who’s opinion are you gonna believe? Now increase the number of experts by a huge order of magnitude and you got your answer to the flood myth. Cmon let’s be honest.

 

[Moonjuice]

I don’t know why you put scholars in quotation marks? I’m assuming that “scholars” and “scientists” agree that Noah’s flood isn’t a thing that happened in real life? That is enough for me to dismiss the flood myth off hand. Why put all this time and effort into studying something when 1000’s of “scholars” and “experts” have already studied it to death. Are you an expert? What do you or I have that “scholars” and “experts” don’t that gives any weight to our ideas.

Exactly. I had this same discussion with a buddy who has owned his own A/C business for almost 30 years. His livelihood depends on his ability to understand and repair A/C systems, since he is successful at it, he is at least good at it...if not an expert (if he didn't know how to correctly repair A/C systems, his business could not survive).

If an accountant, for example, or someone who has never had to make a living repairing A/C systems wants to try and tell me that the people who actually repair A/C systems successfully everyday, do not in fact know how to repair A/C systems, and the accountant is actually in a better position to teach us all how to repair A/C systems...we would all look at that moron with absolute contempt.

This is the price you pay when you are first convinced a proposition is true and then have to find a way to try and dismiss all the data that the actual experts gather, observe, test, and prove to actually do the science you are disagreeing with, while they make their living by doing it correctly. The question is, why do we not immediately dismiss any persons opinion regarding sciences they are not qualified to discuss, when their opinions oppose the actual experts? Why does this same concept with a religious foundation get a "free pass" from mockery?

I mean, if you want to fly on a rocket ship to Mars, would you ask Elon Musk how to do it or the guy at the car wash who thinks the devil is misleading Elon Musk?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It is interesting that the translation of the Bible can be legitimately done to agree with a more localised flood

But what did Jesus say?

And why would Noah have to stay in the Ark for over a year, if it were local? How could they land on high-altitude Ararat?

No, no.

I love science, too; but don’t forget, science only uses naturalism to explain things…. they can’t allow any type of god to do anything. They won’t accept any such explanation. So their interpretations of evidence are way off, on some things.

I’ve asked you this before but you didn’t answer: just what concrete evidence do you think science has found that discredits a global Flood?

Young Earth, yes…. But one has nothing to do with the other.

 

[McCallister]

People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.

I’m not positive but I’m pretty sure Bible scholars don’t even think the flood actually happened.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No Delta material anywhere? Do you not have access to satellite images of what is at the end of the Colorado River? What do you call this?View attachment 53805

There’s 1%, wow.
Where’s the other 99%??

(Of course the river will generate some. Grief.)

I shouldn’t have been so dogmatic though; I was wrong to say ‘none.’ I apologize.
There is some, of course.

 

[an anarchist]

I’m not positive but I’m pretty sure Bible scholars don’t even think the flood actually happened.

I put scholars in quotations because they always speak very dismissively of people who have a literal interpretation. They say that people like that aren’t interested in the truth and aren’t serious thinkers, they are very rude imo. Maybe I’m a little salty, as I’m insulted as I read books on religion.
You’re right, in fact they don’t think most of the Bible literally happened. Yet they claim to b Christian. How much disbelief in the Bible can you have while still claiming to be a believer in it?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Here’s some more evidence supporting the Flood….

I link an article which includes an excerpt of a fascinating book!

In part, the article’s author says:
“I read about a strange connection between Halloween and the global flood mentioned in the Genesis account. It made me wonder… if the global flood has some link to a practice people are still doing.

In his book “ The Worship of the Dead,” Colonel John Garnier wrote, “The mythologies of all the ancient nations are interwoven with the events of the Deluge ... the force of this argument is illustrated by the fact of the observance of a great festival of the dead in commemoration of the event, not only by nations more or less in communication with each other, but by others so widely separated, both by the ocean and by centuries of time. This festival is, moreover, held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the deluge took place, the seventeenth day of the second month — the month nearly corresponding with our November.” “

(Source: WRIGHT WAY: The Great Halloween Trick? )

Taken in combination with all the other evidences, it is too much to be accepted as mere coincidences, for this realist!

 

[Sand Dancer]

People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.

Religious stories are made to try to answer unknowns. Back then they had no idea why rivers flooded. How could they? So making stories up made them feel better. Same reasons why other types of religious stories are made.

 

[Moonjuice]

There’s 1%, wow.
Where’s the other 99%??

(Of course the river will generate some. Grief.)

I shouldn’t have been so dogmatic though; I was wrong to say ‘none.’ I apologize.
There is some, of course.

When you became an expert in geology, with an emphasis on measuring river erosion debris, where did you determine the eroded debris went? Since you calculated only 1% of the total weight of eroded sandstone is accounted for at the end of the CO river, where has the rest of the debris gone?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

When you became an expert in geology, with an emphasis on measuring river erosion debris, where did you determine the eroded debris went? Since you calculated only 1% of the total weight of eroded sandstone is accounted for at the end of the CO river, where has the rest of the debris gone?

It’s unknown.

 

[Moonjuice]

It’s unknown.

You think it is unknown to everyone, but in reality, it is only unknown to you. River erosion and sediment deposition is very well understood, by those who actually make geology their living. The vast majority of river sediment is deposited along the river, very little makes it all the way to the end of the river. Did you know that? If you'd like to learn more about it, this video will help explain where all the sediment is from the Colorado river (and all rivers for that matter). This explanation starts at the 7:30 mark.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You think it is unknown to everyone, but in reality, it is only unknown to you. River erosion and sediment deposition is very well understood, by those who actually make geology their living. The vast majority of river sediment is deposited along the river, very little makes it all the way to the end of the river. Did you know that? If you'd like to learn more about it, this video will help explain where all the sediment is from the Colorado river (and all rivers for that matter). This explanation starts at the 7:30 mark.

“All rivers” leave deposits? No kidding! Lol. But there’s No river that even comes close to what the Colorado is claimed to have done!
What naïveté.

Hook and line, meet sinker.

 

[metis]

I’m not positive but I’m pretty sure Bible scholars don’t even think the flood actually happened.

Exactly, and I remember one scholar saying that those who have a literal believe in Noah's Ark, they are likely to believe anything because there's 0 evidence for it plus it even defies even basic common sense. It's importance is the moral lessons that it provides, plus I believe that it was likely written to counter the earlier and much more widespread Babylonian narratives that are polytheistic.

 

[Moonjuice]

What naïveté. Hook and line, meet sinker.

Oh Hockeycowboy, this is very sad. Are you by chance a flat earther as well?

Is it naïve when your car engine breaks down, that you take it to a professional mechanic to fix it? Is it naïve when you do not speak a particular language, to reach out to someone who speaks that language in order to translate for you? Is it naïve when you cannot figure out how to solve for some sort of complex calculus problem, to reach out to a math professor to show you how to do it? Is it naïve, when you are sick, to reach out to a trained medical professional for help? Of course the answer is no.

However, when it comes to geology, you think referring to professional geologists for the facts is naïve?

By your rationale, we would have no need for a seasoned plumber, because people who have never relied on correctly repairing plumbing issues in order to make a living are more capable than the naïve plumbers who think they know so much about plumbing We should just ask a florist how to solve your plumbing issue. To think that people who spend their lives working on understanding geology, are the idiots...and people who know absolutely nothing about geology is where we should go to for geology facts, is absolutely insane.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Oh Hockeycowboy, this is very sad. Are you by chance a flat earther as well?

Is it naïve when your car engine breaks down, that you take it to a professional mechanic to fix it? Is it naïve when you do not speak a particular language, to reach out to someone who speaks that language in order to translate for you? Is it naïve when you cannot figure out how to solve for some sort of complex calculus problem, to reach out to a math professor to show you how to do it? Is it naïve, when you are sick, to reach out to a trained medical professional for help? Of course the answer is no.

However, when it comes to geology, you think referring to professional geologists for the facts is naïve?

By your rationale, we would have no need for a seasoned plumber, because people who have never relied on correctly repairing plumbing issues in order to make a living are more capable than the naïve plumbers who think they know so much about plumbing We should just ask a florist how to solve your plumbing issue. To think that people who spend their lives working on understanding geology, are the idiots...and people who know absolutely nothing about geology is where we should go to for geology facts, is absolutely insane.

Your accusation, that I know nothing of geology, is a misguided assumption. It’s other adjectives, too, but I’ll just leave it at that. Lol.

“Flat-earther”…please!

I’m not a YEC, either.

 

[Moonjuice]

Your accusation, that I know nothing of geology, is a misguided assumption. It’s other adjectives, too, but I’ll just leave it at that. Lol.

“Flat-earther”…please!

I’m not a YEC, either.

I didn't say you didn't know anything, I just said you are not an expert.

By expert, I mean, you do not make a living based on your ability to collect and report geologic data correctly. Since you are not an expert, your willingness to dismiss all expert geologists work regarding river erosion as being "naïve" is quite hilarious. It's other adjectives too, but I'll just leave it at that...Lol.

As is the case with everything else I am not trained in, I'm going to refer to the entire body of knowledge in geology (and all related sciences) that explain the scientific understanding of river erosion. This is the opposite of being misguided. This is the guided approach every one of us should take when personal opinions conflict with known scientific facts. BTW, this is how our educational system works. We learn by having someone who knows, explain the general scientific understanding of related topics to us. They do this by referring to peer reviewed scientific papers when putting together textbooks, which are always referenced.

I'm supposed to accept that your unsupported assertions are correct, while dismissing the entire scientific understanding, backed by thousands of experts in the field from all over the world? I have to ask myself, which is a better way to find out what is true about river erosion? Cowboy's assertions or the entire worlds geological understanding of river erosion? Sorry Cowboy, I'm going with science on this one. I'll refer to you when the question is about off-sides or horseshoeing.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I didn't say you didn't know anything

You equated me with

….people who know absolutely nothing about geology

And you don’t know me at all!

I just said you are not an expert.

Again, how do you know what I am? Or what I know?

I'll refer to you when the question is about off-sides or horseshoeing.

Thanks for the Ad Hom. It’s revealing.

 

[Moonjuice]

Again, how do you know what I am? Or what I know?

I've been reading your posts. The reason I know you are not leading the way in the science of geology is the same reason I know my wife isn't a car mechanic - just ask her where to find the spark plugs and her answer will tell you she is not an expert.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I've been reading your posts

You have?! Well then, please quote some and show up my ignorance in the field of geology.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeah...here's the whole problem with your premise is that the Epic of Gilgamesh was written before Genesis...long before. It's estimated that Genesis was written somewhere around 1400BC. The Epic of Gilgamesh was written around 2100BC, but that's not even the oldest flood story. The oldest is the Sumerian creation myth written around 2900 BC in which Ziasudra rode out a great flood on a barge with a bunch of animals. There's actually even more flood stories than that though and all of them pre-dating the old testament. Now what is more likely....that there was a flood, but was a local one, as described in the Sumerian tradition, which was not supernatural at all, but was indeed an epic event...in which the story spread by word of mouth and got transformed into other flood myths that were based upon this original, but didn't happen as actually described and the Genesis version was just one of many...or that this Genesis story, written much, much later...got it right and the entire world was flooded, but no one seemed to notice?

You seem to be under the impresion that if Noah's flood is a myth or legend, that this somehow discredits the Torah. Far from it. Myth is a powerful form of literature, which uses a non-historical story to teach deep values. Why wouldn't God want myth in the Bible?