How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

[Twilight Hue]

Given that we have a propensity to recognize patterns and see symmetry in nature, it leads to IMO, erroneous conclusions that such things are intentionally designed. Concepts and beliefs come about because we do see patterns and symmetry in a state of stability, therefore people come to the conclusion that it is somehow manufactured or created by a higher power or supernatural intelligence.

Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

 

[Laika]

Given that we have a propensity to recognize patterns and see symmetry in nature, it leads to IMO, erroneous conclusions that such things are intentionally designed. Concepts and beliefs come about because we do see patterns and symmetry in a state of stability, therefore people come to the conclusion that it is somehow manufactured or created by a higher power or supernatural intelligence.

Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

Creationists assume that matter is inert and cannot be it's own cause. If you look at a rock, it clearly isn't going to "move" itself is it? It's just going to sit there until a force greater than gravity moves it. You can then take this observation (rocks don't move by themselves) and apply it to chemistry and biology (objects don't change or evolve by themselves). When applied to evolution, this means you are looking for an external cause outside of matter/nature, rather than the operation of laws within nature/caused by nature.

So they look outside of nature for a cause. Consciousness is treated as outside of nature because they reject materialism and treat consciousness as something which by definition cannot be produced by material phenomena (i.e. brains and a nervous system). So they look for a consciousness "beyond" man- an intelligent designer- to explain why matter has arranged itself in certain, specific ways.

As matter is inert, it cannot cause anything. Hence, when creationists look at matter as inert, any changes brought about are not based on predictable cause-effect relationships. Therefore, its all "accidental", chaos and randomness and is not predictable.

I'm not a creationist btw, but when to look at the philosophical assumptions behind laws of nature, you can see why a creationist might think that way.

 

[allfoak]

Given that we have a propensity to recognize patterns and see symmetry in nature, it leads to IMO, erroneous conclusions that such things are intentionally designed. Concepts and beliefs come about because we do see patterns and symmetry in a state of stability, therefore people come to the conclusion that it is somehow manufactured or created by a higher power or supernatural intelligence.

Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

Is it not enough to consider how it is that such symmetry and stability can emerge from randomness and chaos?

 

[Windwalker]

Given that we have a propensity to recognize patterns and see symmetry in nature, it leads to IMO, erroneous conclusions that such things are intentionally designed.

Intelligence and intentionality are two different, but related things. An artist may, most times, just start out with intention to express herself. There is not necessarily an idea of what it is that will be created. The intention is to create, not to make a picture of a flower that looks exactly like something they have in mind. Then intelligence helps guide the process to create a functional, cohesive 'whatever'. As an artist myself, I can tell you that very much is my process.

Concepts and beliefs come about because we do see patterns and symmetry in a state of stability, therefore people come to the conclusion that it is somehow manufactured or created by a higher power or supernatural intelligence.

The common error I see is by those who do not understand art, that they imagine, say in terms of the existence of humans, they imagine that was the intentional design. I think that notion is ignorant, as any examination of the body can see both genius in its "design", as well as a complete lack of foresight! The "design" is an adaptive one, like the artist adding a little more color here or there, or a few foundational notes in a piece of music to make it hang together better. The notion of "perfection" in creation is a notion of ignorance (and it's not due to some fabled "fall" of man).

Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

While I would never wish to be associated with a Creationist (defined as denying real science in favor of "magical pseudoscience"), randomness is definitely part of the creative process, for both the artist, and Nature herself. It's not truly "chaos" in the sense of an absolute lack of order. But many, if not most of the best art is unplanned. I think if Creationists could get their heads out of their theological butts and see the idea of how creation occurs has to look like their sad reading of Genesis, they might see that this "Designer" is in fact the process of Nature herself. God didn't create, past tense, but rather all of Creation is in fact a continuous expression of Creativity herself, through these trial and error process to create form.

That's much more compatable of an idea of Intelligent Design, than some magical Wizard in the Sky adding a pinch of this and a dusting of that to turn frogs into human princes, or dirt into Shakespere.

 

[PureX]

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

They create new possibilities that a totally controlled system could not otherwise generate. Many of those possibilities will fail within the design parameters, but some of them will succeed, and in doing so will expand the variety and effectiveness of the design's results.

 

[David T]

Given that we have a propensity to recognize patterns and see symmetry in nature, it leads to IMO, erroneous conclusions that such things are intentionally designed. Concepts and beliefs come about because we do see patterns and symmetry in a state of stability, therefore people come to the conclusion that it is somehow manufactured or created by a higher power or supernatural intelligence.

Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

Three hikers on a trail. One hiker proclaims, "that has been intelligently designed." the second hiker "proclaims its random chaos no need to invoke God" the third hiker shoves them both off the cliff into the ocean and asks himself "how does ocean manifest stupid" he contemplates for a bit and realizes " books of course!!" he tosses the books of science religion math into the ocean and asks himself "how did books, manifest the ocean, which created man Who then discovered books, manifesting the ocean creating man".

 

[Twilight Hue]

Is it not enough to consider how it is that such symmetry and stability can emerge from randomness and chaos?

No because we already understand fairly well how things work on molecular and atomic levels using chemistry and applied physics as it pertains to how molecules bond and separate under a wide variety of natural conditions. Why materials can be more stable than others, for how long, and the conditions under where such materials can be formed or destroyed by way of its structure and the properties of molecular structure.

As a result we better understand principles behind stability and instability today then had been in the past, where assumptions of intelligent design gave way to more natural explanations as our collective understanding grows and that knowledge is shared.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Given that we have a propensity to recognize patterns and see symmetry in nature, it leads to IMO, erroneous conclusions that such things are intentionally designed. Concepts and beliefs come about because we do see patterns and symmetry in a state of stability, therefore people come to the conclusion that it is somehow manufactured or created by a higher power or supernatural intelligence.

Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

It doesn't fit with evolution since life requires a great deal of information which cannot be produced by random processes

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.................................
Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.
How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

I observe there is No organization after a bombing, whereas the BIG bang is all about organization in contrast to any other explosions.

 

[PureX]

Three hikers on a trail. One hiker proclaims, "that has been intelligently designed." the second hiker "proclaims its random chaos no need to invoke God" the third hiker shoves them both off the cliff into the ocean and asks himself "how does ocean manifest stupid" he contemplates for a bit and realizes " books of course!!" he tosses the books of science religion math into the ocean and asks himself "how did books, manifest the ocean, which created man Who then discovered books, manifesting the ocean creating man".

I think something got lost in the translation, here.

 

[PureX]

No because we already understand fairly well how things work on molecular and atomic levels using chemistry and applied physics as it pertains to how molecules bond and separate under a wide variety of natural conditions. Why materials can be more stable than others, for how long, and the conditions under where such materials can be formed or destroyed by way of its structure and the properties of molecular structure.

As a result we better understand principles behind stability and instability today then had been in the past, where assumptions of intelligent design gave way to more natural explanations as our collective understanding grows and that knowledge is shared.

We have no "natural explanations" for the way the expression of energy is being controlled and defined by it's innate limitations. And everything that exists, exists as the organized expression of energy.

 

[David T]

Given that we have a propensity to recognize patterns and see symmetry in nature, it leads to IMO, erroneous conclusions that such things are intentionally designed. Concepts and beliefs come about because we do see patterns and symmetry in a state of stability, therefore people come to the conclusion that it is somehow manufactured or created by a higher power or supernatural intelligence.

Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

I think something got lost in the translation, here.

It's random chaos!!! Wth!!!! Now I get in trouble for it?!!!!!! Actually horrid ordering intentionally!!!! I should HAVE prefaced it with my theory: !!!! My bad. It would have made it more randomly chaotic.

 

[godnotgod]

What is seemingly 'randomness' and 'chaos' do not fit in with the idea of a willful and purposeful Intelligent Design: but they do fit in with Intelligence. Part of the problem is our dualistic thinking: we see what we call 'chaos' as the opposite of 'order', and 'random' the opposite of 'systematic'. When understood more fully, it is seen that they are inseparable and complementary, rather than in opposition, therefore are actually one reality. That they are in opposition is only an idea in the mind. We also see the world as an artifact; a collection of 'things', that came into existence as a matter of creation. But it was not created, but evolved. The problem is that we confuse 'form' with what we call 'things'. There are no such 'things'. Everything in the universe is an action taking on a form, an ocean wave, for example, which is not actually a 'thing' in itself, but a wave-form. And what is the source of all form? That which is formless, or what we think of as 'chaos'. It is this very formlessness that is Pure Abstract Intelligence, playing itself as 'The Universe'. IOW, and as the Hindus have told us for over 4000 years, what we think of as a 'real' material universe is actually an illusion, a play, if you will, which they call maya*. It is this maya that is the result of play, or lila, as they call it. On the level of dreams, for example, we see that as reality, but upon awakening, it's illusory quality is instantly clear. Not so when we go from this 'awakened' level to the next higher level of conscious awareness, because the 'material' world, which we perceive via the senses, remains in place as such, that is, until we pierce the facade of materiality and see into it's true nature: an illusion of a higher caliber. And the only way this can be detected is via an awakening to and connection with the background of 'material' existence, which is Pure Abstract Intelligence, or what science is now trying to understand as 'The Unified Field'.

*Science itself, in trying to fathom the essential nature of the atom, is coming up empty-handed. It cannot find that elusive solid 'particle' it thought was there, and, in many cases, is now seeing what was thought to be a 'particle', is actually standing waves which emerged from the field within which the 'particle' is found. IOW, material reality is not about any particle, but about the field, or background, out of which it emerged. All of the mass of the atom can be accounted for by energy fluctuations in the Quantum and Higgs Fields, this mass being virtual mass.

 

[godnotgod]

It's random chaos!!! Wth!!!! Actually horrid ordering intentionally. Hmm how is a mentally ill person not being random and chaotic? I might say the mentally ill slip into random chaos.

But a mentally ill person still thinks his mind is rational, or orderly, and acts accordingly.

 

[David T]

But a mentally ill person still thinks his mind is rational, or orderly, and acts accordingly.

So do most people it's spectrum. Or doald trump is the most deeply reasoned rational person on the planet.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We have no "natural explanations" for the way the expression of energy is being controlled and defined by it's innate limitations. And everything that exists, exists as the organized expression of energy.

I find that Isaiah 40:26 agrees with the ^ above^ because there is says God supplied the abundantly needed dynamic energy by His ' power ' and His ' strength '. Even the oceans have boundary limit bars or doors as per Job 38:8-10.

 

[Twilight Hue]

We have no "natural explanations" for the way the expression of energy is being controlled and defined by it's innate limitations. And everything that exists, exists as the organized expression of energy.

That kind of drives home the point exemplified by your last sentence. Maybe a freudian slip.

"Organized expressions of energy".


The tendency for intelligent design proponents to look primarily at symmetry and stability based on our propensity for pattern recognition while ignoring randomness and chaos as it relates to our perceptions of what is designed by purpose and what is naturally occurring.

Of course there are horizons that science has yet to approach, and it's clear that we have limits based on our present level of technology and capabilities.

But remember, those tools are available for creationists and intelligent design proponents as well if they find something that there that can be applied to support intelligent design.

So far I would say this "race" as it stands would have natural explanations far ahead of the pack from anything put forward that would suggest intelligent design being directly or indirectly involved which is pretty much nil to non-existent.

If there is something that can be pointed to it be wonderful to hear about it, but so far nothing substantial has been put forward in the same way that the sciences has discovered and found to be true In the rawest terms as it stands presently.

Intelligent design seems to be incorrigibly focused primarily on stability and symmetry without explaining the randomness and chaos that permeates each instance where stability and symmetry are perceived for the time that it is there.

 

[Twilight Hue]

But a mentally ill person still thinks his mind is rational, or orderly, and acts accordingly.

That is an astute observation. Definitely worth consideration as it applies to perceptions and determinations made here although it may be more applicable with the realm of philosophy as opposed to direct science. Nice nonetheless. :0)

 

[David T]

That kind of drives home the point exemplified by your last sentence. Maybe a freudian slip.

"Organized expressions of energy".


The tendency for intelligent design proponents to look primarily at symmetry and stability based on our propensity for pattern recognition while ignoring randomness and chaos as it relates to our perceptions of what is designed by purpose and what is naturally occurring.

Of course there are horizons that science has yet to approach, and it's clear that we have limits based on our present level of technology and capabilities.

But remember, those tools are available for creationists and intelligent design proponents as well if they find something that there that can be applied to support intelligent design.

So far I would say this "race" as it stands would have natural explanations far ahead of the pack from anything put forward that would suggest intelligent design being directly or indirectly involved which is pretty much nil to non-existent.

If there is something that can be pointed to it be wonderful to hear about it, but so far nothing substantial has been put forward in the same way that the sciences has discovered and found to be true In the rawest terms as it stands presently.

Intelligent design seems to be incorrigibly focused primarily on stability and symmetry without explaining the randomness and chaos that permeates each instance where stability and symmetry are perceived for the time that it is there.

isn't intelligent design simply reductionism pressed outside reality? It's like look we can reductivly claim this based on that outside reality aspect. It's like it never even existed at the time of the text was written. So isn't it just projection, of modernity? How much thinking, we all do, is exactly simply that?

The last I check everyone's theory here is wrong I just read it in Google..... Oh wait that's been over turned by a new theory oh damn yet another theory shows that both of those are way false.

How much of all of this is simply just that? It can,"feel" good but I am not so certain it is all good. A bit like guys all hanging out at the beach all intensely talking and no one notice the whale swimming by putting on a show!!! Are we missing out? Near my house earlier. Lucky me. 3 bull elk just grazing. Awesome now that is really cool.

 

[David T]

Given that we have a propensity to recognize patterns and see symmetry in nature, it leads to IMO, erroneous conclusions that such things are intentionally designed. Concepts and beliefs come about because we do see patterns and symmetry in a state of stability, therefore people come to the conclusion that it is somehow manufactured or created by a higher power or supernatural intelligence.

Very rarely have I ever seen creationist address chaos and randomness that is common place in nature. So I ask it here.

How does Randomness and Chaos fit in with intelligent design?

I went to my enviromental studies text the term doesn't exist in it.