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Featured How does one reconcile the view of Jesus in the Qu'ran with the Bible?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Muffled, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that does not exist in the original Arabic. The original Arabic says: Allah his son.
     
  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe what I am saying is that it is correct to say Jesus died if one views that there is a dead body whether the Spirit (Which is part of what Jesus is) went through death or not. So it is correct that the Spirit of God stopped living in Jesus and one could consider Jesus as having died although the body were still living. However it is also correct to say that Jesus didn't die because the whole Jesus did not die. So from God's perspective He did not die because He wasn't there to experience it. From man's perspective he did die because they could view a dead body. What the Qu'ran says is that the authors of the Bible judged by appearances ie the dead body.
     
  3. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I do not have a requirement. I speak the truth because I am the Truth.

    I believe the RF rule is that no one knows anything and everything is a belief.

    I believe I am showing how they both can be true. Read my previous post.

    I believe while reading the Qu'ran the Holy Spirit guided me into an understanding of how God speaks and that the Qu'ran has that.
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That's quite easy to answer, Jesus which is in the Qu'ran is not the same Jesus that's in the Bible.
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thank for that clear explanation.

    The apostle Paul said, all scripture is inspired of God, for ...doctrine [teaching], ... for setting things straight. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
    So I believe in allowing the scriptures to guide what I believe, rather than doctrines of men.

    According to scripture one cannot be a fleshly being, and a spirit being.
    A fleshly being however, depends on spirit to live. This spirit is not a being, but is the force of life, that keeps the fleshly being alive. This is also the force of life present in animals. Spirit beings do not depend on this.

    (Psalm 104:29) . . .If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
    (Job 34:14, 15) If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their spirit and breath to himself, 15All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.
    (Psalm 146:3, 4) Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
    (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.
    (Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

    Please read 1 Corinthians 15:38-50. I will just extract a portions from there since is quite lengthy.
    38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.

    44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one. 50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

    Jesus was given a body for which to come to earth to die. That body could only be one sort - physical or spiritual. Which do you say it was?
    According to scripture it can't be both, and the scriptures give a clear answer.
    John 1:14
    So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

    Hebrews 2:14
    Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil,

    According to scripture Jesus was born to a virgin as a human - blood and flesh - physical / fleshly being.

    So when Jesus died, he died as a human, fleshly being, according to scripture.
    His dead fleshly body remained in the tomb three days. His spirit (the force of life) returned to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7
    His flesh did not see corruption - did not decay, and return to the dust. His body apparently was removed by God, in the same way God hid Moses' body, for obvious reasons.
    Acts 2:31 . . .neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption.

    On the third day God raised - resurrected - Jesus from the dead - according to the scriptures.
    Acts 2:32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses.
    1 Corinthians 15:45 The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    1 Peter 3:18 . . .put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

    Therefore, according to the scriptures Jesus was raised up with a spirit body.
    Nowhere in the Bible does it say the whole of Jesus did not die, or that he died in part.
    Where do you find that in scriptures? There is no such reference.

    According to scriptures Christ died, otherwise his purpose for coming to earth was futile, and that is not the case. All the disciples believed this.
    Romans 14:8, 9
    8For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. 9For to this end Christ died and came to life again, so that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.
     
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  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Or they just accepted what they preferred, and rejected what they didn't want to accept.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh Okay. I don't know.
     
  8. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    You are the truth. What in the world is that supposed to mean?

    Yes all claims about external realities are beliefs. We supposed to be showing why our beliefs are the best inferences to a conclusion. Your simply telling me what you believe is not the best inference to a conclusion. It's merely a declaration.

    You do not understand.

    1. The bible claims that Christ was the unique son of God, that paid for my sins, that he died and was resurrected.
    2. The Quran claims Christ was not God's unique son, did not pay for my sins, and that he was never killed.

    By the law of non-contradiction both of these cannot be true. Either one or the other or neither can be true.

    By the historical method we should either accept no 1. or neither.

    Then why does what you claim he revealed to you contradict what he revealed to all the apostles and billions of Christians? What surah even allows for the holy spirit in Islam?
     
  9. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Which (if any) of those two holy books do you think got it right?
     
  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    What do you think, seeing that I am a Christian. That in it's self shouldn't be to hard for you to figure out.
     
  11. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    I didn't really look to see if you were a Christian before I asked my question. Let me instead ask a different question. I have my own substantial reasons to think the bible's authors got Jesus right but what are your reasons for believing they did.
     
    #31 1robin, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    On one part, thats what makes up a Christian, to believe in what is written, By whom God had chosen to write.

    Not one of those men written what they wanted, They all written what was given to them by God thru his Spirit.
     
  13. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    That is not very persuasive. The reasons I believe the bible's authors over Muhammad are the they are multiple attestations to the same historical truths and the fact they lived along side Christ where as Muhammad never met Christ or anyone else who had. Also the disciples stood by what they had said at great personal cost.
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Well of course, I believe those who written the Bible, over Muhammad also.

    Muhammad is no prophet, but a self made prophet.
    Little do people know, that Christ Jesus gave Prophecy 600 years before Muhammad was born, about a false prophet in the desert. Seeing Muhammad lived in the desert.

    Matthew 24:24-26
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    There you have it, false prophet in the desert. ( Muhammad )
     
  15. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Interesting, I had never heard that verse applied to Muhammad. Also notice that Muhammad did not miracles in his time.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Muhammad is the only self proclaim prophet to haved lived in the desert. Which we to day, call the Arabian Desert.
    So who exactly do you suppose Christ Jesus was in the giving Prophecy about, a false prophet in the desert ? Matthew 24:24-26.

    Muhammad was supposedly done miracles.

    Quran - The revelation of the Quran is considered by Muslims to be Muhammad's greatest miracle and a miracle for all times, unlike the miracles of other prophets, which were confined to being witnessed in their own lifetimes. The events which occurred during his Hegira (migration from Mecca to Medina)

    "While there are some Muslims who will say Muhammad's only miracle was the revelation of the Qur'an, the so-called "Moon splitting miracle" and other lesser-known miracles are widely believed by Muslims"
     
    #36 Faithofchristian, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there is no evidence to support that view.
     
  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    That is an instance of a Spirit as a separate being who in Jesus is joined to flesh.
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it means that God speaks through me.

    I believe your estimation of my understanding is lacking in reasonable evaluation.

    I believe you have to find contradictory statements in order to claim the law is working in this instance.

    I believe there are no such claims in the Qu'ran.

    I believe it does not.

    I believe it is Sura 4. See post #7.
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    There is, if you have read both the Qu'ran and the bible, there is no comparison. Of Jesus in the Bible to the Qu'ran.
     
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