Doodlebug02
Active Member
How does one convert to Orthodox Judaism? Is a Bar or Bat Mitzvah needed? Sorry but I am totally lost on this. 
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How does one convert to Orthodox Judaism?
- Thread starter Doodlebug02
- Start date
These are unrelated to conversion. (Orthodox don't have Bat Mitzvahs, btw) I posted on this topic on your thread on the main Judaism forum.How does one convert to Orthodox Judaism? Is a Bar or Bat Mitzvah needed? Sorry but I am totally lost on this.
I believe you are mistaken. Orthodox jews do have Bat Mitzvahs, but a Bar and Bat Mitzvah is simply not what most people think it is. It is not a ritual or a ceremony, it is simply an age marker. A boy who turns 13 is Bar Mitzvah, by virtue of the fact that he turned 13. This means that he is now obligated to keep the commandments in the Bible, and can be entered into halachik legal contracts. The same goes for a girl who turns 12 (she becomes Bat Mitzvah). People like to have a celebration to mark the coming of age, but it is really simply an indicator of age.
It's like a birthday party, if you don't have the party, you're still a year older.
ATAT
Member
Steps to converting:
1. Find an Orthodox Synagogue. Doing it through the mail or internet just won't work. If you don't have a mikvah, a willing Orthodox Rabbi with his Orthodox community, it's just not going to happen.
2. Ask the Rabbi 3 times or more, politely. Strong tradition, though not absolute, requires three requests minimum, and even then you will have a long wait, something like 400 years. Most Orthodox Rabbis just don't have the time and position to do this. Compare it to asking someone for a five thousand dollar loan. There's no religious obligation to be Jewish, and the pressure on the rabbi to follow you around for 20 years to keep you completely satisfied once you're Jewish discourages many rabbis from taking part in the process. Typical: 2 A.M., a few years later: "Rabbi? It's me, your convert. I'm still having trouble finding a Jewish mate, so, I'm thinking of looking in 'other places'."
I know of one fellow who told me he went up to a rabbi and told the rabbi that he's going to eat a cheeseburger. Great. The truth is, if you already have a Jewish spouse, it actually takes away a lot of pressure from the rabbi. It calls into question the motivation for converting, but you can get around that by showing sincerity for the religion itself. But conjuring up a mate for a convert who's a 'loser' is tougher than it might sound. I'm not saying you're a 'loser', I'm just talking in general, but why hasn't the candidate got a mate already? Are they gay? (just kidding, but you get my point).
3. Ask lots of questions on how to do it right. Not 'questioning' / challenging the faith.
Examples of good questions:
a. What if one mitzvah seems to conflict with another?
b. What if the milk water mixes with the meat water in the drain?
c. Does a non-Jewish woman have to cover her hair at the synagogue?
d. Can I be in the same room with the Torah when it's my time?
Examples of bad questions:
e. Why don't we believe in Jesus Christ, also known as Yeshua Hamoshia?
f. How can we be saved without the Temple sacrifices?
g. How sinful is it to drink wine?
h. How lucky will you feel once I've become "the Jew" and can help you with my non-Jewish insight?
4. Learn the Hebrew letters. There's no way around this, at a minimum, you've gotta learn the 22 Hebrew letters.
5. Learn to pray from the siddur. Artscroll transliterated is the way to go. Buy only Artscroll books, you'll be safe.
6. Be honest and sincere. Except not challenging, but ask insightful questions. Lots of them.
7. Keep Shabbos and, this is a personal opinion, don't become a 'Shabbos Goy'. How can they convert you, they'll lose their Shabbos Goy? When I say, 'Keep Shabbos', I mean, except for one malacha which you do, at home, in private, where no one else can gain from it.
The bottom line is education, learn learn learn, go to classes, go to services, think of it as punching in your time clock. Every time the rabbi sees you, it's like getting one day closer to your conversion. If the rabbi doesn't see you, you've wasted your trip to the shul, so, make sure to say hello to the rabbi every time you go, even if he's in the middle of a heart transplant.
8. Donate to the shul. The 'business' of running a shul is not about the money, but try telling that to the bank. Too many people, such as myself, think religion should be 'free'. That's a good one. If so, you should try doing your job for free for a few years and see if your opinion changes.
9. Keep kosher, etc etc etc,
10. Most important of all: BE NORMAL. Don't have 'problems' with your personal life. You can be honest without dumping baggage on everyone you meet at the shul. The test period is to see if you can keep it together, not to hire another patient that the rabbi has to make room for every day. No, I don't mean you can't learn with the rabbi every day, but decide whether you want to convert, or are you just interested in someone paying attention to you.
11. You want to become Jewish to uphold the commandments as a means to serving God.
and the great fish, those two reasons, serve God via the commandments, and try all the different types of fish that only Jews know how to make.
12. (also above) Never never never never never say that you'll have better insights because you started out as a non-Jew. It may be true, but, saying that shows a lack of understanding of what it's like to hear that as a Jew.
13. (from the Haggadah) Always ask, 'Why do we...?' or 'What do we think about...' Never, 'Why do you do this...?' nor 'Why do Jews do that...?' Even if you strongly disagree with X, ask 'Why do we do X?' not 'Why do you / they do X?'
14. Be calm and have fun.
There's nothing secret about the conversion process itself, all you have to do is get naked and explain why you want to serve God via the commandments. OK, not in that order, and they'll haev a woman there if you're a woman, the men won't be violating your privacy.
I think life is about having lots of fun, if you have joy, people will want to be around you and get your energy. If, on the other hand, you've got a loser mentality, when's the last time you wanted to be closer to someone like that?
15. Help straighten up the synagogue, put away the chairs, clean up, etc. Don't worry, the moment you get your conversion you can stop and let the real Jews take care of that, you deserve a break, and, after all, by now you've packed in enough shul time to last you the rest of your life. The very first question out of your mouth after your conversion should be, 'When do my checks start coming?"
1. Find an Orthodox Synagogue. Doing it through the mail or internet just won't work. If you don't have a mikvah, a willing Orthodox Rabbi with his Orthodox community, it's just not going to happen.
2. Ask the Rabbi 3 times or more, politely. Strong tradition, though not absolute, requires three requests minimum, and even then you will have a long wait, something like 400 years. Most Orthodox Rabbis just don't have the time and position to do this. Compare it to asking someone for a five thousand dollar loan. There's no religious obligation to be Jewish, and the pressure on the rabbi to follow you around for 20 years to keep you completely satisfied once you're Jewish discourages many rabbis from taking part in the process. Typical: 2 A.M., a few years later: "Rabbi? It's me, your convert. I'm still having trouble finding a Jewish mate, so, I'm thinking of looking in 'other places'."
I know of one fellow who told me he went up to a rabbi and told the rabbi that he's going to eat a cheeseburger. Great. The truth is, if you already have a Jewish spouse, it actually takes away a lot of pressure from the rabbi. It calls into question the motivation for converting, but you can get around that by showing sincerity for the religion itself. But conjuring up a mate for a convert who's a 'loser' is tougher than it might sound. I'm not saying you're a 'loser', I'm just talking in general, but why hasn't the candidate got a mate already? Are they gay? (just kidding, but you get my point).
3. Ask lots of questions on how to do it right. Not 'questioning' / challenging the faith.
Examples of good questions:
a. What if one mitzvah seems to conflict with another?
b. What if the milk water mixes with the meat water in the drain?
c. Does a non-Jewish woman have to cover her hair at the synagogue?
d. Can I be in the same room with the Torah when it's my time?
Examples of bad questions:
e. Why don't we believe in Jesus Christ, also known as Yeshua Hamoshia?
f. How can we be saved without the Temple sacrifices?
g. How sinful is it to drink wine?
h. How lucky will you feel once I've become "the Jew" and can help you with my non-Jewish insight?
4. Learn the Hebrew letters. There's no way around this, at a minimum, you've gotta learn the 22 Hebrew letters.
5. Learn to pray from the siddur. Artscroll transliterated is the way to go. Buy only Artscroll books, you'll be safe.
6. Be honest and sincere. Except not challenging, but ask insightful questions. Lots of them.
7. Keep Shabbos and, this is a personal opinion, don't become a 'Shabbos Goy'. How can they convert you, they'll lose their Shabbos Goy? When I say, 'Keep Shabbos', I mean, except for one malacha which you do, at home, in private, where no one else can gain from it.
The bottom line is education, learn learn learn, go to classes, go to services, think of it as punching in your time clock. Every time the rabbi sees you, it's like getting one day closer to your conversion. If the rabbi doesn't see you, you've wasted your trip to the shul, so, make sure to say hello to the rabbi every time you go, even if he's in the middle of a heart transplant.
8. Donate to the shul. The 'business' of running a shul is not about the money, but try telling that to the bank. Too many people, such as myself, think religion should be 'free'. That's a good one. If so, you should try doing your job for free for a few years and see if your opinion changes.
9. Keep kosher, etc etc etc,
10. Most important of all: BE NORMAL. Don't have 'problems' with your personal life. You can be honest without dumping baggage on everyone you meet at the shul. The test period is to see if you can keep it together, not to hire another patient that the rabbi has to make room for every day. No, I don't mean you can't learn with the rabbi every day, but decide whether you want to convert, or are you just interested in someone paying attention to you.
11. You want to become Jewish to uphold the commandments as a means to serving God.
and the great fish, those two reasons, serve God via the commandments, and try all the different types of fish that only Jews know how to make.
12. (also above) Never never never never never say that you'll have better insights because you started out as a non-Jew. It may be true, but, saying that shows a lack of understanding of what it's like to hear that as a Jew.
13. (from the Haggadah) Always ask, 'Why do we...?' or 'What do we think about...' Never, 'Why do you do this...?' nor 'Why do Jews do that...?' Even if you strongly disagree with X, ask 'Why do we do X?' not 'Why do you / they do X?'
14. Be calm and have fun.
There's nothing secret about the conversion process itself, all you have to do is get naked and explain why you want to serve God via the commandments. OK, not in that order, and they'll haev a woman there if you're a woman, the men won't be violating your privacy.
I think life is about having lots of fun, if you have joy, people will want to be around you and get your energy. If, on the other hand, you've got a loser mentality, when's the last time you wanted to be closer to someone like that?
15. Help straighten up the synagogue, put away the chairs, clean up, etc. Don't worry, the moment you get your conversion you can stop and let the real Jews take care of that, you deserve a break, and, after all, by now you've packed in enough shul time to last you the rest of your life. The very first question out of your mouth after your conversion should be, 'When do my checks start coming?"
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First off, welcome to RF! :yes:
Feel free to make a introduction post over in the new members forum, so the community can say welcome, too!
I found your post very insightful, with just the right touch of humor... and rightly so, because a Jew needs a good sense of humor.
The Proselytes who I see are always soooo serious and nervous, sometimes I'd like to just tell them 'chillaxe!' they should read this.
A few comments, if I may interject?
The gerim probably don't know what this means, and I personally don't like the practice.
Bottom line is a Proselyte is technically still not a Jew, and therefore not permitted to observe Shabbat as a Jew. However, there are both positive and negative Mitzvot in being shomer Shabbat, all a Proselyte has to do is just omit some positive observances, there is no need to do actual work.
If you're in the Orthodox community, and that's pretty much a given, look around and ask around about Parsha Shevua (Torah Portion of the week) discussions. These sometimes meet in people's homes even. Bringing up a good point from Rashi about some pasuk in the week's portion during study will impress the Rabbi, nu?
Feel free to make a introduction post over in the new members forum, so the community can say welcome, too!
I found your post very insightful, with just the right touch of humor... and rightly so, because a Jew needs a good sense of humor.
The Proselytes who I see are always soooo serious and nervous, sometimes I'd like to just tell them 'chillaxe!' they should read this.
A few comments, if I may interject?
Most converts are young, but... If you already have a mate, and they aren't committed to your conversion, you have a problem. :sorry1:
The gerim probably don't know what this means, and I personally don't like the practice.
Bottom line is a Proselyte is technically still not a Jew, and therefore not permitted to observe Shabbat as a Jew. However, there are both positive and negative Mitzvot in being shomer Shabbat, all a Proselyte has to do is just omit some positive observances, there is no need to do actual work.
If you're in the Orthodox community, and that's pretty much a given, look around and ask around about Parsha Shevua (Torah Portion of the week) discussions. These sometimes meet in people's homes even. Bringing up a good point from Rashi about some pasuk in the week's portion during study will impress the Rabbi, nu?
ATAT
Member
Just curious, what would be a good example of a positive observance of Shabbos to omit? Kiddish?
In concurrance, I think the key is not to keep Shabbos as a commandment, my understanding is that technically, one need not violate anything, so long as it's for practice and not as a service to God.
My favorite example, I don't know if it's legitimate, was the candidate wore tzitzis on Shabbos as the means to violate the Shabbos and thus avoid the violation of stealing Shabbos forbidden to non-Jews.
His argument was, 'since wearing tzitzis is only a commandment for Jews, when I wear it, it's therefore carrying.' (= a violation of Shabbos).
"But, we're in an eruv."
His reply, "I don't hold by the eruv."
That's almost as funny as the one about two women fighting in the mikvah line, "niddah k'negged niddah".
ATAT
Member
Definition of terms in the above post:
Kiddish is one way to fulfill the biblical obligation to make the Sabbath holy, located in the ceremony to make a blessing over grape-juice or wine.
'Eruv' is a string around a place not biblically public, but public enough such that one might accidentally think it is public. Since the 'eruv' only removes a rabbinic prohibition not to carry in this less than public place, an eruv does not work for a public place that is truly public. Thus there are polite disagreements as to whether any particular eruv is valid. Everyone agrees that if the place was biblically public, then the eruv would be ineffective, everyone agrees that an eruv string would not remove the biblical prohibition.
Note, the 'eruv' rabbinic prohibition describes why Jesus told the man with the mat he could go home, Jesus was of the liberal House of Hillel in opposition to the in power conservative House of Shammai. Note that Jerusalem was a walled city, hence, Jesus was not telling the man to violate a biblical commandment, rather, there seems to be something about a rabbinic ruling against which Pharisee Jesus was complaining. Jesus had no hesitation about violating the biblical prohibition against showing contempt against the office holders at the time, something historically typical of the students of the House of Hillel, I think.
"Middah k'negged middah" is a traditional maxim that means, 'one good deed leads to another'.
But changing one sound for another, you get, 'niddah', which does not mean 'good deed' rather, it means a woman who has had her time of the month but not yet gone to the mikvah, ritual bath, required prior to resumption of relations. (This law does not biblically apply to non-Jews, but does rabbinically with regard to Jews who have relations with non-Jews... and the mikvah does not solve the problem of removing the rabbinic din (law) of 'niddah' imposed upon the non-Jewish woman. [so how come there's no din of niddah on a non-Jewish man? hmmm, never thought about that before... perhaps karka l'olam plays a roll... or... doesn't do anything {pun intended}}).
For the record, I'm not messianic. I think Jesus had some interesting points, as a man with no legitimate father, Jesus was a great teacher of the true fact that anyone can get to heaven, regardless of any biblical violation in his conception.
Kiddish is one way to fulfill the biblical obligation to make the Sabbath holy, located in the ceremony to make a blessing over grape-juice or wine.
'Eruv' is a string around a place not biblically public, but public enough such that one might accidentally think it is public. Since the 'eruv' only removes a rabbinic prohibition not to carry in this less than public place, an eruv does not work for a public place that is truly public. Thus there are polite disagreements as to whether any particular eruv is valid. Everyone agrees that if the place was biblically public, then the eruv would be ineffective, everyone agrees that an eruv string would not remove the biblical prohibition.
Note, the 'eruv' rabbinic prohibition describes why Jesus told the man with the mat he could go home, Jesus was of the liberal House of Hillel in opposition to the in power conservative House of Shammai. Note that Jerusalem was a walled city, hence, Jesus was not telling the man to violate a biblical commandment, rather, there seems to be something about a rabbinic ruling against which Pharisee Jesus was complaining. Jesus had no hesitation about violating the biblical prohibition against showing contempt against the office holders at the time, something historically typical of the students of the House of Hillel, I think.
"Middah k'negged middah" is a traditional maxim that means, 'one good deed leads to another'.
But changing one sound for another, you get, 'niddah', which does not mean 'good deed' rather, it means a woman who has had her time of the month but not yet gone to the mikvah, ritual bath, required prior to resumption of relations. (This law does not biblically apply to non-Jews, but does rabbinically with regard to Jews who have relations with non-Jews... and the mikvah does not solve the problem of removing the rabbinic din (law) of 'niddah' imposed upon the non-Jewish woman. [so how come there's no din of niddah on a non-Jewish man? hmmm, never thought about that before... perhaps karka l'olam plays a roll... or... doesn't do anything {pun intended}}).
For the record, I'm not messianic. I think Jesus had some interesting points, as a man with no legitimate father, Jesus was a great teacher of the true fact that anyone can get to heaven, regardless of any biblical violation in his conception.
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Yes, perhaps omitting the brocha over the wine or the candles would be sufficient.
The question is, what's the status of the Proselyte? If someone is drawing near the Jewish people to join them, to me they are 'the stranger within your camp' and should not work on the Shabbat, just like the Ger Toshav (when that designation was applicable) was not allowed to violate the Shabbat.
So, yes practice is useful and there must be a distinction drawn between practice and observance but I think this must be done in the positive laws and not the negative.
ATAT
Member
Of course, in all cases, the non-Jew must do the 'work' (not really 'work', but close enough) for his own gain.
Case came up with my brother (non-Jewish). I needed a bottle of grape juice opened, so, I offered him the bottle and told him he could have some.
He smiled, looked at me, opened it ... and then handed it back without taking any.
I couldn't use it, because he didn't open it for his own gain.
If a non-Jew wants the lights on for themselves, there's no prohibition against gaining from that.
In cases where the tzibur (large crowd) has a need, then there's room for the non-Jew to do it arbitrarily, not for personal gain, but I believe it is strictly forbidden (rabbinicly) to simply ask the non-Jew to do the malacha ('work', badly translated).
When I was wanting to convert, the rabbi had a need for the entire congregation, the lights went out. He came over to me, mentioned the problem, but didn't ask me directly. I can't say I 'refused' because he didn't really ask. I didn't do it because I didn't want to. He yelled at me JUST KIDDING JUST KIDDING, he didn't yell at me at all, he took it in stride, didn't embarrass me at all, not even a drop, I got my conversion just as fast as if I had turned on the lights... who knows, maybe even faster...
*sigh*, Little did he know what a grave regret he would feel, what a mistake that would turn out to be, if only he could go back in time and tell himself, 'No, no NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!' - but that's another story.
There are other details, for instance, you can't hire a non-Jew to work on Shabbos.
You can't contract with a non-Jewish contractor to do work for work that can only be done on Shabbos.
For instance, suppose I need a barn built, I hire a non-Jewish contractor.
I give him a deadline of Sunday at noon. If that deadline means, at the time of the initial contracting, that the non-Jew would have to put in time on Shabbos, then I can't do the contract. I MUST give him enough non-Shabbos time to finish the job. After we do the contract, if the non-Jew chooses, for his own personal reasons, to use Shabbos time and take off other time, that's OK.
An exception is if, let's say, I hire a construction worker to work on my house.
I follow the rules, I give him plenty of chol, non-shabbos time, to do the job. Nevertheless, I can't let him work on my house on Shabbos because it looks like I might have paid him by the hour to work on Shabbos, and I believe it's rabbinic decree to forbid this. I remember one of the richest men of my community didn't know this detail, and the head rabbi gently guided him to learn the laws, and the man decided on his own to re-arrange the contract so that no work would be done on shabbos.
Yom Tov is a bit more complicated, when you can cook for a non-Jew. Yom Tov is typically understood to be less stringent than Shabbos, but that might be too short a way to look at it.
Put it this way, you must treat Yom Tov like Shabbos, required by the bible, but the bible says that you must do certain things on Yom Tov, such as have the meal, and (actually I forgot the bible verses, so, I'm making this up as I go along) so it is permitted / required to cook, which is strictly forbidden.
I do know there is a subtle difference between Shabbos and Yom Tovim (Festivals).
1. There's a positive commandment to be happy on Yom Tovim (plural for Yom Tov).
2. There's no corresponding positive commandment to be happy on Shabbos, just to rest from malacha (I spell malocha differently ever time).
3. The bible gives the death penalty for breaking Shabbos, I don't believe that applies to Yom Tovim (Passover an exception for other reasons, not based on violating malachas, rather, you are obligated to bring the Passover offering or sacrifice a human being who is sin free.)
4. On Yom Tov there are only six aliyahs, not seve.... oh, time out, human beings are not kosher animals, they don't have hooved feet nor chew their cud, nor do they have fins and scales so they're not kosher fish and you are forbidden to kill a human being and eat part of them, that would be "murder" and is always forbidden by the Torah, so, I must have been crazy for a few moments, sorry, I don't know what I was thinking, that's clearly forbidden.
My point is that we may / are required to cook what we need, but it's problematic to cook, on Yom Tov for a non-Jew, but if we can anticipate that a quantity of Jews might come, then we can cook for them and then if non-Jews come, we certainly do not have to favor the Jews, equal distribution is permitted.
The idea is that non-Jews are not commanded to keep the Yom Tovim, so, the idea of cooking for their Yom Tov meal doesn't hold water.
For the record, very few Orthodox Jews worry about this, primarily because the prohibition against embarrassing a guest over-rules these lower level problems.
I've never heard of anyone not stuffing their non-Jewish guests to their maximum, so, it's only a theoretical point.
Would you like some gefelte fish? There's actually a large spectrum of varieties, quality, and no, I have yet to pick up a taste for horse radish, it still tastes like gasoline to me.
Post script, my spell checker says that ‘hooved’ is not a word, but I’m leaving it in anyway.
Just to be candid, I'm big into studying the laws of conversions, and I've never once heard that not doing a positive Shabbos activity counts for those who say you must not keep Shabbos in practice, which is 99% of the people who are both experts in the field and had an opinion.
It seems either you just have to know that it doesn't count at all, (I've heard that from only one rabbi, but he's a big one) and every other time, for the last umpteen years, it's always, 'You have to break Shabbos at least once.' I've never once heard the position that refraining from kiddish (the sanctification blessing) counts. For one thing, the bracha (blessing) language for kiddish is d'rabbonon (rabbinic, not biblical), and one can be yotzai d'orrissa (fulfill the bible command) via the davening (prayers) Friday night, so, fulfilling any obligation to 'break' Shabbos by not sanctifying Shabbos would require abstaining from any prayer that sanctifies Shabbos, and the prayers are replete with those, you could trip that wire any number of times. To be clear, one can indeed fulfill the biblical obligation to sanctify the Sabbath with the rabbinic prayer, kiddish, but that's not the only way the biblical requirement might be fulfilled.
Case came up with my brother (non-Jewish). I needed a bottle of grape juice opened, so, I offered him the bottle and told him he could have some.
He smiled, looked at me, opened it ... and then handed it back without taking any.
I couldn't use it, because he didn't open it for his own gain.
If a non-Jew wants the lights on for themselves, there's no prohibition against gaining from that.
In cases where the tzibur (large crowd) has a need, then there's room for the non-Jew to do it arbitrarily, not for personal gain, but I believe it is strictly forbidden (rabbinicly) to simply ask the non-Jew to do the malacha ('work', badly translated).
When I was wanting to convert, the rabbi had a need for the entire congregation, the lights went out. He came over to me, mentioned the problem, but didn't ask me directly. I can't say I 'refused' because he didn't really ask. I didn't do it because I didn't want to. He yelled at me JUST KIDDING JUST KIDDING, he didn't yell at me at all, he took it in stride, didn't embarrass me at all, not even a drop, I got my conversion just as fast as if I had turned on the lights... who knows, maybe even faster...
*sigh*, Little did he know what a grave regret he would feel, what a mistake that would turn out to be, if only he could go back in time and tell himself, 'No, no NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!' - but that's another story.
There are other details, for instance, you can't hire a non-Jew to work on Shabbos.
You can't contract with a non-Jewish contractor to do work for work that can only be done on Shabbos.
For instance, suppose I need a barn built, I hire a non-Jewish contractor.
I give him a deadline of Sunday at noon. If that deadline means, at the time of the initial contracting, that the non-Jew would have to put in time on Shabbos, then I can't do the contract. I MUST give him enough non-Shabbos time to finish the job. After we do the contract, if the non-Jew chooses, for his own personal reasons, to use Shabbos time and take off other time, that's OK.
An exception is if, let's say, I hire a construction worker to work on my house.
I follow the rules, I give him plenty of chol, non-shabbos time, to do the job. Nevertheless, I can't let him work on my house on Shabbos because it looks like I might have paid him by the hour to work on Shabbos, and I believe it's rabbinic decree to forbid this. I remember one of the richest men of my community didn't know this detail, and the head rabbi gently guided him to learn the laws, and the man decided on his own to re-arrange the contract so that no work would be done on shabbos.
Yom Tov is a bit more complicated, when you can cook for a non-Jew. Yom Tov is typically understood to be less stringent than Shabbos, but that might be too short a way to look at it.
Put it this way, you must treat Yom Tov like Shabbos, required by the bible, but the bible says that you must do certain things on Yom Tov, such as have the meal, and (actually I forgot the bible verses, so, I'm making this up as I go along) so it is permitted / required to cook, which is strictly forbidden.
I do know there is a subtle difference between Shabbos and Yom Tovim (Festivals).
1. There's a positive commandment to be happy on Yom Tovim (plural for Yom Tov).
2. There's no corresponding positive commandment to be happy on Shabbos, just to rest from malacha (I spell malocha differently ever time).
3. The bible gives the death penalty for breaking Shabbos, I don't believe that applies to Yom Tovim (Passover an exception for other reasons, not based on violating malachas, rather, you are obligated to bring the Passover offering or sacrifice a human being who is sin free.)
4. On Yom Tov there are only six aliyahs, not seve.... oh, time out, human beings are not kosher animals, they don't have hooved feet nor chew their cud, nor do they have fins and scales so they're not kosher fish and you are forbidden to kill a human being and eat part of them, that would be "murder" and is always forbidden by the Torah, so, I must have been crazy for a few moments, sorry, I don't know what I was thinking, that's clearly forbidden.
My point is that we may / are required to cook what we need, but it's problematic to cook, on Yom Tov for a non-Jew, but if we can anticipate that a quantity of Jews might come, then we can cook for them and then if non-Jews come, we certainly do not have to favor the Jews, equal distribution is permitted.
The idea is that non-Jews are not commanded to keep the Yom Tovim, so, the idea of cooking for their Yom Tov meal doesn't hold water.
For the record, very few Orthodox Jews worry about this, primarily because the prohibition against embarrassing a guest over-rules these lower level problems.
I've never heard of anyone not stuffing their non-Jewish guests to their maximum, so, it's only a theoretical point.
Would you like some gefelte fish? There's actually a large spectrum of varieties, quality, and no, I have yet to pick up a taste for horse radish, it still tastes like gasoline to me.
Post script, my spell checker says that ‘hooved’ is not a word, but I’m leaving it in anyway.
Just to be candid, I'm big into studying the laws of conversions, and I've never once heard that not doing a positive Shabbos activity counts for those who say you must not keep Shabbos in practice, which is 99% of the people who are both experts in the field and had an opinion.
It seems either you just have to know that it doesn't count at all, (I've heard that from only one rabbi, but he's a big one) and every other time, for the last umpteen years, it's always, 'You have to break Shabbos at least once.' I've never once heard the position that refraining from kiddish (the sanctification blessing) counts. For one thing, the bracha (blessing) language for kiddish is d'rabbonon (rabbinic, not biblical), and one can be yotzai d'orrissa (fulfill the bible command) via the davening (prayers) Friday night, so, fulfilling any obligation to 'break' Shabbos by not sanctifying Shabbos would require abstaining from any prayer that sanctifies Shabbos, and the prayers are replete with those, you could trip that wire any number of times. To be clear, one can indeed fulfill the biblical obligation to sanctify the Sabbath with the rabbinic prayer, kiddish, but that's not the only way the biblical requirement might be fulfilled.
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ATAT
Member
continued, sorry about the length:
There's another interesting case, let's say the Jewish identity is in doubt. In this case, I think, the suffake (uncertain status) person is told to keep Shabbos in case they really are Jewish, but to violate the non-Jewish Saturday, in other words, wait for Shabbos to be over, but, before midnight, turn on a light so as not to keep "Sabbgath" (my word) as a non-Jew.
The problem I have with that is that if that works, then any non-Jew could use this as a solution, keep all of Shabbos (Friday sunset plus 25 hours) then make havdalah (a ceremony lighting a candle with two wicks) along with everyone else. So, I suspect the 'break the non-Jewish Saturday' is a choice of last resort when the more direct breaking of Shabbos is forbidden by the issur (prohibition) procedure of s'fake d'orrissa l'chumra (if you're not sure about a biblical commandment, be stringent) – which comes from the bible (Rambam to the contrary but we don’t hold by the Rambam on this) but... it's strict for who? If they are Jewish, sure, keep Shabbos to be safe. But if they're not Jewish, then that's not being ‘strict’ if he’s really a non-Jew.
I think the solution of having the uncertain status person break the Saturday after Shabbos is over might give us a clue as to what's really going on:
I suspect, from this evidence, that the real problem isn't a non-Jew keeping Shabbos to be a convert some day at all. Rather, I think the problem is 'stealing' the 'sign' of the Sabbath from the Jews by non-Jews, something that is seen frequently throughout history, other groups asserting that they are the ones with whom God has given the day of rest. I strongly suspect the real problem is this, the large scale theft, the theft of the sign that is Shabbos on the grand scale, where there's a real palpable competition from a huge competing non-Jewish group. Remember, after all, many Christians think the promises of the "Old Testament" no longer pertain to the Jews and that this or that Christian group has 'replaced' the Jews. I think *that's* the only real problem / prohibition. That's all just speculation; I haven't read that anywhere, I just get that from my sense of history. I've even read that some Christians assert that today's Jews aren't even true descendants from the Israelites, I hate to even repeat it, but that's attack has been around for a long time. I've even heard that there's a group of Filipinos in the Philippines who believe they are the true genetic Jews, somehow the real Jews migrated to Asia, somehow got to the Philippines, and they are the real Jews. Of course, none of that is true, I'm the only real biological Jew, I came here in a space ship from Mount Sinai using my time machine.
Sadly, I have to state that the last lines were a joke, or, sure enough, someone's going to cut and paste it and claim I was serious.
There's another interesting case, let's say the Jewish identity is in doubt. In this case, I think, the suffake (uncertain status) person is told to keep Shabbos in case they really are Jewish, but to violate the non-Jewish Saturday, in other words, wait for Shabbos to be over, but, before midnight, turn on a light so as not to keep "Sabbgath" (my word) as a non-Jew.
The problem I have with that is that if that works, then any non-Jew could use this as a solution, keep all of Shabbos (Friday sunset plus 25 hours) then make havdalah (a ceremony lighting a candle with two wicks) along with everyone else. So, I suspect the 'break the non-Jewish Saturday' is a choice of last resort when the more direct breaking of Shabbos is forbidden by the issur (prohibition) procedure of s'fake d'orrissa l'chumra (if you're not sure about a biblical commandment, be stringent) – which comes from the bible (Rambam to the contrary but we don’t hold by the Rambam on this) but... it's strict for who? If they are Jewish, sure, keep Shabbos to be safe. But if they're not Jewish, then that's not being ‘strict’ if he’s really a non-Jew.
I think the solution of having the uncertain status person break the Saturday after Shabbos is over might give us a clue as to what's really going on:
I suspect, from this evidence, that the real problem isn't a non-Jew keeping Shabbos to be a convert some day at all. Rather, I think the problem is 'stealing' the 'sign' of the Sabbath from the Jews by non-Jews, something that is seen frequently throughout history, other groups asserting that they are the ones with whom God has given the day of rest. I strongly suspect the real problem is this, the large scale theft, the theft of the sign that is Shabbos on the grand scale, where there's a real palpable competition from a huge competing non-Jewish group. Remember, after all, many Christians think the promises of the "Old Testament" no longer pertain to the Jews and that this or that Christian group has 'replaced' the Jews. I think *that's* the only real problem / prohibition. That's all just speculation; I haven't read that anywhere, I just get that from my sense of history. I've even read that some Christians assert that today's Jews aren't even true descendants from the Israelites, I hate to even repeat it, but that's attack has been around for a long time. I've even heard that there's a group of Filipinos in the Philippines who believe they are the true genetic Jews, somehow the real Jews migrated to Asia, somehow got to the Philippines, and they are the real Jews. Of course, none of that is true, I'm the only real biological Jew, I came here in a space ship from Mount Sinai using my time machine.
Sadly, I have to state that the last lines were a joke, or, sure enough, someone's going to cut and paste it and claim I was serious.
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Myself, it's the opposite, I can't stand gefeltefish, but love horseradish
Ashkenazim have such weird food ! :run:
I did say it was just my opinion, nu?
I never did understand why the laws of the Ger Toshav must be tied to the laws of Jubilee, resulting in both laws being unenforced and therefore Noachides who desire to bond with us being told they have to violate Shabbat even if they live in Eretz Yisrael
It's always been a problem to me, just like the prevailing view that a Ger Tzeddek must actually be a Gilgul Neshama; it denies a path for Goyim to join our people while at the same time casting a cloud of shame over the Ger Tzeddek, (what did they do in a past life to become a Gilgul Neshama???)
(sorry for the strange punctuation, my period key is dead)
ATAT
Member
You're opinions are probably better than my 'facts'.
I must be even more ignorant that I've been lead to believe, please explain.
I've heard two basic suggestions,
1. That I was really Jewish all along. I usually reply that this would be problematic in that I typically sold my chometz to my mother and there's no desire to motivate me to introduce her to keeping Shabbos.
2. That I've got a new soul, which was floating around at Har Sinai. I think this is motivated by the theological need to explain, somehow, how I can just walk in off the street and, with the help of the Bais Din (I have debated about whether they need to be a full blown Bais Din, or just three Shomer Shabbos witnesses) dip into the water and *somehow* the commands given 3500 years ago *somehow* apply to me.
No one, not once, has ever suggested that I had a defective soul that 'needed' to wait. I don't know if they were thinking it or not, but no one has suggested it.
But I can top you one, get a load of this:
I actually asked the Rosh Bais Din, if I was going to get a new soul, how could my old soul be permitted to, in effect, commit spiritual suicide just to be replaced by a new soul?
At least I had the common sense to ask this quietly.
Looking back, that seems like a very stupid thing to say at the time. Why not just wear a cross to the conversion, or, better yet... and I was *very* tempted to do this, bring a rubber ducky.
No kidding, but, I thought better of it. I did, however, actually spend my hard earned money and go out and buy goggles and flippers and yes, finally the yellow rubber ducky for some friends of mine who were converting the next day.
Come to think of it, they stopped talking to me after that, and wouldn't come to Shabbos any more. True story.
I usually go up to conversion candidates, just before they convert, and ask to borrow huge sums of money, and then explain that, on technical grounds, I probably wouldn't have to pay them back.
Nobody ever seems amused by all of that, but, it amuses me, so I continue to torture them whenever I find them. I actually am intending to put them at ease, and I must include that I have helped solve some critical problems.
I've even been on a bais din for two conversions, but I wasn't really given a choice and I am not too sure that's proper procedure. Some rabbis are so big, you really can't say no.
I am adament about keeping Jewish / non-Jewish marraiges together.
My argument is that we should slowly try to convince the non-Jewish partner to convert, no matter how long it takes.
And my blood pressure rises whenever I hear the words, 'shiksa' or 'shagetz'. I am on solid ground to point out that the non-Jew has done nothing wrong to marry the Jew, the onus is strictly on the Jew. There's no Noahide prohibition against a non-Jew marrying a Jew. and once the Jew has married the non-Jew, the Jew created the situation and has, in my very minority opinion, the obligation not to make the life of the non-Jew worse. especially if there are children (Jewish or not).
Years ago I used to study with a man who kept dumping on his non-Jewish wife, and I constantly argued that it was he who had the problem.
Eventually, he divorced her, despite the fact they had a daughter.
He remarried a Jewish woman. I still think he did the wrong thing. I mean, even according to the Torah. Just because something is done with social approval does not mean it is the right thing to do according to all the Torah values taken as a whole.
I admit it's a minority opinion, but I hold it strongly and I'm right, and it's irrelevant that I am a convert, I'm right, everybody else is wrong.
Note the last line at the bottom (from the Eagles) :
My Maserati
Does one eighty-five
I lost my license
Now I don't drive
I have a limo
Ride in the back
I lock the doors
In case I'm attacked
I'm making records
My fans they can't wait
They write me letters
Tell me I'm great
So I got me an office
Gold records on the wall
ust leave a message
Maybe I'll call
Lucky I'm sane after all I've been through
(Everybody sing) I'm cool (He's cool)
I can't complain but sometimes I still do
Life's been good to me so far
I go to parties
Sometimes until four
It's hard to leave
When you can't find the door
It's tough to handle
This fortune and fame
Everybody's so different
I haven't changed.
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ATAT
Member
My favorite ‘save’ of all time.
I once knew a man and his whole family was trying to convert.
Through no fault of their own, they met one barrier after another, wasting their time.
They were perfect candidates, no mental issues, very sincere, dedicated, patient, but they just picked the wrong rabbi to spend their time with. Some rabbis really don’t do conversions, it’s hard to sort that out.
So, they clocked in years, perfect observance, finally they asked me, ‘What’s going on?’
I had to admit they had far better specs than I ever did, perhaps this rabbi’s really telling the truth that he doesn’t do conversions.
Then, out of patient desperation, the family moved away, eventually came back, finally went to a rabbi I suggested.
Smash cut to a year later, the family’s been approved, the conversion is slated for the following Sunday, everybody in the family’s got their beach towels ready, then the head of the family comes over to me on a dark Friday night in panic.
“I found out there’s something I can’t accept.”
“What is it, you have an irresistible urge to murder and pillage?”
“No, no, that’s not it.”
He then tells me of some nuance in halacha which the average Orthodox Jew wouldn’t even think is a problem.
He had asked a rabbi a question, got an answer from the rabbi, and now he had a huge problem with the answer.
The train’s pulling away, all their plans have come to this, and he can’t find his ticket.
(Begin Superman music, Clark sees trouble with his x-ray vision, he slips around the corner, begins sprinting, now pulls open his jacket to reveal a huge red diamond ‘S’. ).
I had to think fast.
“How much time did you spend asking the question, was it at least a two hour session, explaining all the details?”
“No, I just asked the question and got an answer.”
“So, you didn’t have time to go into depth, explaining how this would impact you, all the possible ramifications?”
No.
“So, the truth of the matter is, you didn’t ask the full question, you didn’t ask *your* question, you didn’t ask the question including the facts of the case, you don’t know what the rabbi would say if you had explained how much of a huge impact this would have on you, correct?”
*pause*
“Correct.”
“So then, you haven’t asked you’re question, not yet. You have no idea what the answer will be. If you had mentioned how this would impact you, with all the details, why you feel this way, your deep history, because the two of you didn't take the time to ask *that* question, correct?”
“Correct.”
“Well, you have no obligation to imagine what the answer would be, you don’t have to start making up problems for yourself. You don’t have to ask this right now, there’s no rush, there’s a lot you have yet to learn, this need not be done until later. As far as you know, the answer to your real question will be no problem for you, now, in the mean time, you’ve got to get yourself ready for your conversion, you can accept all the commandments, all the rabbinic laws, everything, and who knows what the situation will be the moment after you convert? Who knows what the answer to your real question will be? You don’t have to go looking for problems, imagining that you’ll get an impossible answer. And the truth is, if, after you convert, you discover there’s something you can’t do for whatever reason, well, welcome to the club, many Jews are in that position.”
“With a very grateful smile, the man thanked me. He converted with his family, and here they are, years later, a very kosher, upstanding, Jewish family.”
The truth is that the requirement to screen out candidates who do not accept all the mitzvos and all the traditions, etc etc, that requirement is a chiyuv on the bais din, it is not an absolute barrier to a kosher, Orthodox conversion. The Bais Din is not allowed to knowingly accept converts who do not accept those, but that does not mean that a secret matter in the heart makes the conversion is invalid (d'varim sh'blaiv, ano d'varim). This is an Orthodox insight, we're not talking about someone who thinks a commitee wrote the bible or that the rabbis don't have the authority to make the rules, this is the actual Orthodox rule.
Notice that a freed slave can become Jewish just by tovelling, and I'm not aware that any acceptance is required at all. Same method, no kavana needed. So, the idea that the conversion would be invalid without all that kavana *in perfection* is not so simple. That's just a chiyuv (obligation) on the Bais Din.
I once knew a man and his whole family was trying to convert.
Through no fault of their own, they met one barrier after another, wasting their time.
They were perfect candidates, no mental issues, very sincere, dedicated, patient, but they just picked the wrong rabbi to spend their time with. Some rabbis really don’t do conversions, it’s hard to sort that out.
So, they clocked in years, perfect observance, finally they asked me, ‘What’s going on?’
I had to admit they had far better specs than I ever did, perhaps this rabbi’s really telling the truth that he doesn’t do conversions.
Then, out of patient desperation, the family moved away, eventually came back, finally went to a rabbi I suggested.
Smash cut to a year later, the family’s been approved, the conversion is slated for the following Sunday, everybody in the family’s got their beach towels ready, then the head of the family comes over to me on a dark Friday night in panic.
“I found out there’s something I can’t accept.”
“What is it, you have an irresistible urge to murder and pillage?”
“No, no, that’s not it.”
He then tells me of some nuance in halacha which the average Orthodox Jew wouldn’t even think is a problem.
He had asked a rabbi a question, got an answer from the rabbi, and now he had a huge problem with the answer.
The train’s pulling away, all their plans have come to this, and he can’t find his ticket.
(Begin Superman music, Clark sees trouble with his x-ray vision, he slips around the corner, begins sprinting, now pulls open his jacket to reveal a huge red diamond ‘S’. ).
I had to think fast.
“How much time did you spend asking the question, was it at least a two hour session, explaining all the details?”
“No, I just asked the question and got an answer.”
“So, you didn’t have time to go into depth, explaining how this would impact you, all the possible ramifications?”
No.
“So, the truth of the matter is, you didn’t ask the full question, you didn’t ask *your* question, you didn’t ask the question including the facts of the case, you don’t know what the rabbi would say if you had explained how much of a huge impact this would have on you, correct?”
*pause*
“Correct.”
“So then, you haven’t asked you’re question, not yet. You have no idea what the answer will be. If you had mentioned how this would impact you, with all the details, why you feel this way, your deep history, because the two of you didn't take the time to ask *that* question, correct?”
“Correct.”
“Well, you have no obligation to imagine what the answer would be, you don’t have to start making up problems for yourself. You don’t have to ask this right now, there’s no rush, there’s a lot you have yet to learn, this need not be done until later. As far as you know, the answer to your real question will be no problem for you, now, in the mean time, you’ve got to get yourself ready for your conversion, you can accept all the commandments, all the rabbinic laws, everything, and who knows what the situation will be the moment after you convert? Who knows what the answer to your real question will be? You don’t have to go looking for problems, imagining that you’ll get an impossible answer. And the truth is, if, after you convert, you discover there’s something you can’t do for whatever reason, well, welcome to the club, many Jews are in that position.”
“With a very grateful smile, the man thanked me. He converted with his family, and here they are, years later, a very kosher, upstanding, Jewish family.”
The truth is that the requirement to screen out candidates who do not accept all the mitzvos and all the traditions, etc etc, that requirement is a chiyuv on the bais din, it is not an absolute barrier to a kosher, Orthodox conversion. The Bais Din is not allowed to knowingly accept converts who do not accept those, but that does not mean that a secret matter in the heart makes the conversion is invalid (d'varim sh'blaiv, ano d'varim). This is an Orthodox insight, we're not talking about someone who thinks a commitee wrote the bible or that the rabbis don't have the authority to make the rules, this is the actual Orthodox rule.
Notice that a freed slave can become Jewish just by tovelling, and I'm not aware that any acceptance is required at all. Same method, no kavana needed. So, the idea that the conversion would be invalid without all that kavana *in perfection* is not so simple. That's just a chiyuv (obligation) on the Bais Din.
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Lion of Yehuda
New Member
The title "bar mitzvah" means that one has arrived at the time of acceptance of full responsibility for the yoke of Torah and her commandments. For a convert, this is the moment he or she appears before the Jewish court with witnesses and accepts the yoke of Torah and answers their questions fully.How does one convert to Orthodox Judaism? Is a Bar or Bat Mitzvah needed? Sorry but I am totally lost on this.
Lion of Yehuda
New Member
Depending upon where you live, you need to meet with the closest local rabbi and arrange some schedule of learning in order to determine how you can acquire sufficient knowledge of all that is involved in order to make an informed decision.
Keep in mind that it is a custom to discourage applicants, since at one time it was a grave danger to be Jewish, and also to convert from some faiths was considered a capital offense. Not Greek or Roman times, but later under Byzantine or other persecution of Jews. Also Muslims who convert must change their identity totally and leave contact with their former families, and that is true today - not just in the past.
Different countries have organized themselves accordingly, so tell me what country you are in and we can get into more details. I don't want to write about England if you live in the US or Australia. France has its own system and is the best country to convert in.
One needs to have ken of all the holidays, how to keep Shabbat, how to keep kashrut, and how to educate a child in daily prayer. One must be able to read Hebrew in order to read the prayers.
And if one is male or female, the duties vary depending upon gender.
Keep in mind that it is a custom to discourage applicants, since at one time it was a grave danger to be Jewish, and also to convert from some faiths was considered a capital offense. Not Greek or Roman times, but later under Byzantine or other persecution of Jews. Also Muslims who convert must change their identity totally and leave contact with their former families, and that is true today - not just in the past.
Different countries have organized themselves accordingly, so tell me what country you are in and we can get into more details. I don't want to write about England if you live in the US or Australia. France has its own system and is the best country to convert in.
One needs to have ken of all the holidays, how to keep Shabbat, how to keep kashrut, and how to educate a child in daily prayer. One must be able to read Hebrew in order to read the prayers.
And if one is male or female, the duties vary depending upon gender.
I wish I could explain, but it makes no sense to me, here is an example link where they just state this without explanation, as if it should be obvious,,,
Ger Toshav
Ah, so you've heard of this, even Reform Proselytes have heard of this, and I think it's a shame
Often I see Proselytes searching their ancestry looking for a possible Jew to show that they are 'legitimate' Proselytes, it's sad to watch
See, many Sephardic communities do not accept converts, at all, and others accept them only because of the Gilgul Neshama returning
This is wrong, on two counts;
It closes the door for Gentiles converting since this basically says they can't when in fact they can, we live in the age of branches
Secondly, it puts a stigma (undeserved!!) on the Proselyte, if you view him as a soul cut off from the Jewish people by sin and forced to return in this way
A lose-lose situation if I ever saw one, and of all the people in the world the Ger Tsedek is the last one we should heap shame and doubt on!
It invites suspicion and distrust of the Ger, and that is exactly opposite of what the Torah tells us to do!
Sorry for being so negative, but I feel very strongly on this, and am always depressed after Tisha B'Av anyways,,,, Shabbat Shalom, see you next week!
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ATAT
Member
Can you provide a link / quote where it says,
As for where I am from, in 25 years I've never ever heard anyone say anything except that I'm better than them, I've come further to get to the same place, I get more credit (from which I borrow heavily).
Of course, it's an issur make a ger feel unwelcome. There's one mitzvah to love your fellow Jew, and for the ger, there's a second requirement to love the convert on top of the one to love your fellow Jew, that makes two to love the ger.
When I converted, the Rosh Bais Din asked me if I had any Jewish ancestors. The basis for the question is that it takes some of the pressure off of the Rosh, so that if you were Jewish anyway, then they don't have to feel the pressure if cheeseburgers end up on your menu, they didn't make the problem if you were already Jewish.
Knowing my family tree, I almost laughed out loud. (imagine the music for the Beverly Hillbillies)
I told them I was pretty sure there wasn't even a drop of Jewish blood, and they accepted me anyway.
They also told me that I would end up being more certain of my Jewish identity than any of them, at which point my bad judgment kicked in and I blurted out that I didn't understand how I could be more Jewish than any of them, because if I didn't have at least three Jews witnessing my conversion... Ignoring the signs of doom, they let pass my chutzpah alluding to the possibility that one of them might not be Jewish, and proceeded with the conversion. // As an aside, I have since wondered if that's why THREE are required. Normally, things require two witnesses, you can get missah by two aidim. So, why three? Well, here we go, what if one wasn't Jewish? So, put in three, you're safe (though, rov should have done the trick, [beriah to the contrary {a beriah isn't butal, so, maybe you can NOT go by rov}])
It's flat out a mitzvah to convert someone that the bais din determines is sincere.
That's in Yevamos where they have the conversion, the language is that once the final questions are asked, and the convert candidate says, 'af al pe kain, ani k'dai' the bais din is to proceed me'yad, and this is understood to mean it is an obligation, a mitzvah.
Once the sincerity has been discovered via the examination, it's an obligation to convert the candidate, a mitzvah, immediately. (don't ask me if it falls under the 613, I'm ignorant).
I've never been told anything about shame, I've never heard it in lectures, fakert, all I ever hear about is how proud I should be, that even if a Jew from birth and I are on the same level now, I'm the superior one because I started without the advantages of birth (if there are any) and have upgraded all the way up. (I wish that were true about me in particular, but, that's the idea)
Here's how I look at it:
People who have a problem with converts simply don't believe in the Torah 100%, because according to the Torah, converts are 100% Jewish, and if someone has a problem with that, that means they don't use ONLY the Torah 100% and *therefore* they need race, biology, to kick in to the degree that they lack a connection to Torah.
As for where I am from, in 25 years I've never ever heard anyone say anything except that I'm better than them, I've come further to get to the same place, I get more credit (from which I borrow heavily).
Of course, it's an issur make a ger feel unwelcome. There's one mitzvah to love your fellow Jew, and for the ger, there's a second requirement to love the convert on top of the one to love your fellow Jew, that makes two to love the ger.
When I converted, the Rosh Bais Din asked me if I had any Jewish ancestors. The basis for the question is that it takes some of the pressure off of the Rosh, so that if you were Jewish anyway, then they don't have to feel the pressure if cheeseburgers end up on your menu, they didn't make the problem if you were already Jewish.
Knowing my family tree, I almost laughed out loud. (imagine the music for the Beverly Hillbillies)
I told them I was pretty sure there wasn't even a drop of Jewish blood, and they accepted me anyway.
They also told me that I would end up being more certain of my Jewish identity than any of them, at which point my bad judgment kicked in and I blurted out that I didn't understand how I could be more Jewish than any of them, because if I didn't have at least three Jews witnessing my conversion... Ignoring the signs of doom, they let pass my chutzpah alluding to the possibility that one of them might not be Jewish, and proceeded with the conversion. // As an aside, I have since wondered if that's why THREE are required. Normally, things require two witnesses, you can get missah by two aidim. So, why three? Well, here we go, what if one wasn't Jewish? So, put in three, you're safe (though, rov should have done the trick, [beriah to the contrary {a beriah isn't butal, so, maybe you can NOT go by rov}])
It's flat out a mitzvah to convert someone that the bais din determines is sincere.
That's in Yevamos where they have the conversion, the language is that once the final questions are asked, and the convert candidate says, 'af al pe kain, ani k'dai' the bais din is to proceed me'yad, and this is understood to mean it is an obligation, a mitzvah.
Once the sincerity has been discovered via the examination, it's an obligation to convert the candidate, a mitzvah, immediately. (don't ask me if it falls under the 613, I'm ignorant).
I've never been told anything about shame, I've never heard it in lectures, fakert, all I ever hear about is how proud I should be, that even if a Jew from birth and I are on the same level now, I'm the superior one because I started without the advantages of birth (if there are any) and have upgraded all the way up. (I wish that were true about me in particular, but, that's the idea)
Here's how I look at it:
People who have a problem with converts simply don't believe in the Torah 100%, because according to the Torah, converts are 100% Jewish, and if someone has a problem with that, that means they don't use ONLY the Torah 100% and *therefore* they need race, biology, to kick in to the degree that they lack a connection to Torah.
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