How does “Hear, O Israel, YAHWEH, our God, is one” prove that YAHWEH is three persons

[Eli G]

"god" is not a word for the Absolute, since there are millions of gods, and each of them is presumed to be different in many ways from the others who are also called as gods.

It is obvious that "god" is a title. Titles ARE NOT personal names and do not identify anyone as an individual, but instead include them in a set of objects/subjects that are classified in the same way.

This understanding of the matter is too basic not to be understood. You can't go around denying even the obvious. RIGHT?

 

[Windwalker]

God is a spirit, as you say. God is seen where angels are. All of them see each other and talk to each other. That is another realm; I already told you that, so you do not have to do the same question.

God is seen? Do you have a reference to this? If "God is Spirit", is spirit something that can be seen? Can you see the wind? You can see the effects of the wind, but do you actually see wind itself? Isn't that the same thing with God? As I've asked several times, do you believe God has a body? Is this you answer that question yes, you believe God does have a body?

Jesus was near God in heaven, and have a direct relationship with Him as a real person. GOD is not an abstract thing, but a real person with feelings, and we were created in his image, in the sense that we can reflect his qualities as individual conscious and rational beings.

So God is a physical being according to how you interpret the language of the Bible? Those are not figures of speech, but literal descriptions of physical reality?

I know the Mormons believe God is a literal physical person who lives on the planet Kolob, and he and his God-wife had Jesus in the Celestial realm and sent him to earth, but I didn't know that Jehovah's Witnesses believed something similar to this. I'll have to ask some next time they knock on my door if they believe God has a physical body like Mormons do. This is news to me.

John 7:28 Then as he was teaching in the temple, Jesus called out: “You know me and you know where I am from. And I have not come of my own initiative, but the One who sent me is real, and you do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me.”

If they see each other and communicate with each other, it is obvious that they are distinguished from each other, differentiated from each other, and therefore have some kind of figure in their own realm.

Yes, that's what the Trinitarians are looking at in their formula. But why do you assume from this passage that God has a physical form?

BTW, you say that God is not abstract? Do you think Spirit is something concrete and literal? "God is Light", "God is Love", God is Spirit", all sound abstract to me. I think that's why there is a prohibition against making God into a concrete literal object, like an idol. Because we reduce God down to stone or wood, or things made by the human mind.

 

[Eli G]

Same questions same answers: God is seen by spirits. Jesus saw Him and taught about Him.

If you need the same answers again, just read other's posts and try to understand what they said.

 

[Windwalker]

"god" is not a word for the Absolute, since there are millions of gods, and each of them is presumed to be different in many ways from the others who are also called as gods.

We are not talking about gods. We are talking about God, singular, which points to the Ultimate, or the Absolute. This is basic theology. What word do you use for the Absolute?

It is obvious that "god" is a title. Titles ARE NOT personal names and do not identify anyone as an individual, but instead include them in a set of objects/subjects that are classified in the same way.

Alright, if you want to say God is a title that "describes someone's position or job", then I can go with that. "God" describes the position of the Ultimate Reality, or the Absolute. God is a title to describe that 'role' or function then.

 

[Link]

We are not talking about gods. We are talking about God, singular, which points to the Ultimate, or the Absolute. This is basic theology. What word do you use for the Absolute?


Alright, if you want to say God is a title that "describes someone's position or job", then I can go with that. "God" describes the position of the Ultimate Reality, or the Absolute. God is a title to describe that 'role' or function then.

Both of what you say is right but wrong. God is still a title, there are possible notions of God that are false. The name of God is not a title, it's a metaphor, and means the word of God or the word of light brought to life, and refers to chosen ones like Samuel (who's name means "name of God").

God doesn't have a name because he existed before language existed. He has many titles. God or Allah are just among those titles.

The power of God by which he rules the universe, is through such a person in all times, and that is what the holy spirit is, it's a reality inherited from one divinely appointed king to another.

Literally God is nameless, but metaphorically, has chosen Adam down to the last guides, as his beautiful names.

 

[Windwalker]

Same questions same answers: God is seen by spirits. Jesus saw Him and taught about Him.

God is seen by spirits? You mean 1 Tim 3:16? That's referring to seeing Jesus. Can you show me a verse that says God can be seen in a physical sense?

Again, you have not answered yet that I have read so far, do you believe God has a physical body that can be seen? Do you believe like the Mormons?


I'll keep asking the same question, if I haven't seen you answer yet.

 

[Windwalker]

Both of what you say is right but wrong. God is still a title, there are possible notions of God that are false. The name of God is not a title, it's a metaphor, and means the word of God or the word of light brought to life, and refers to chosen ones like Samuel (who's name means "name of God").

God doesn't have a name because he existed before language existed. He has many titles. God or Allah are just among those titles.

The power of God by which he rules the universe, is through such a person in all times, and that is what the holy spirit is, it's a reality inherited from one divinely appointed king to another.

Sure, I'll accept God as a title for the Absolute. It's a metaphor. I also use the Absolute, the Infinite, the All, the Divine, the Source, the Ground of Being, etc. All those too can be considered titles as well. So, I retract what I said earlier.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is basic theology.

^ an oxymoron if there ever was one

 

[Eli G]

(...) Again, you have not answered yet that I have read so far, do you believe God has a physical body that can be seen? Do you believe like the Mormons?


I'll keep asking the same question, if I haven't seen you answer yet.

Same question same answer: Jesus said God is a real person. The quotation from the Scriptures is up. Read it.

God spoke with humans. He even spoke in Jesus baptism, in Jesus' transfiguration, and in other ocassion. You do not believe the Scriptures, so, how can you know whatever you believe? Because some other human told you so?

Tell clearly what religion you are, cause that will give the rest of the forum members the idea of why you do not want to believe what the Bible says, and where you get your beliefs from.

 

[Windwalker]

^ an oxymoron if there ever was one

Theology is a field of study, so yes, there is such a thing as Theology 101.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Speaking of the Shema, one might wish to ponder ..

• when was it likely written,
• by whom,
• in what historical context, and
• for what purpose?

or, conversely, we can play a few more rounds of "My Dogma Says."

 

[Link]

Sure, I'll accept God as a title for the Absolute. It's a metaphor. I also use the Absolute, the Infinite, the All, the Divine, the Source, the Ground of Being, etc. All those too can be considered titles as well. So, I retract what I said earlier.

God means he should be loved and exalted way above others in a unique way. That his relationship with us should be heightened and raised as more important then anyone or anything else.. God is exalted, and there are exalted ones. The exalted ones are great, and believers can reach greatness but never the level of the chosen exalted ones status with God. God is great, but we can be great.

Exalted ones can't reach God level, and great believers not chosen by God can't reach exaltedness.

Half the battle is semantics.

God/Allah is the most important title probably because it describes the religion to worship God alone, to obey God and only obey his exalted authorities to obey God.

 

[Eli G]

Speaking of the Shema, one might wish to ponder ..

• when was it likely written,
• by whom,
• in what historical context, and
• for what purpose?

or, conversely, we can play a few more rounds of "My Dogma Says."

I agree: we can not invent the truth, like we invent how God should be. He is who he is, and we may want to know Him.

 

[Eli G]

God means he should be loved and exalted way above others in a unique. God is exalted, and there are exalted ones. The exalted ones are great, and believers can reach greatness but never the level of the chosen exalted ones status with God. God is great, but we can be great.

Exalted ones can't reach God level, and great believers not chosen by God can't reach exaltedness.

Half the battle is semantics.

God/Allah is the most important title probably because it describes the religion to worship God alone, to obey God and only obey his exalted authorities to obey God.

Is this the mormon/bahai idea that men become gods?

Gods are not eaten by worms, nor do stinking things come out of them.

 

[Link]

Is this the mormon/bahai idea that men become gods?

Gods are not eaten by worms, nor do stinking things come out of them.

I don't know about mormons, but Bahais you are misunderstanding. They express chosen founders as manifestations of God.

 

[Windwalker]

Same question same answer: Jesus said God is a real person. The quotation from the Scriptures is up. Read it.

Jesus said God is a real person? I'm not familiar with any verse that refers to God as a person, let alone from the lips of Jesus. I'm happy to be proven wrong with a quote.

I am familiar with this quote however, "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." John 1:18

I'm also familiar with this verse, "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation" Col. 1:15

So, God is invisible, and no one has ever seen God... so where is it in scripture you find that we can see God because God has a physical body, exactly?

The Mormons have additional scripture they use to teach them their beliefs about God having a body. What is your source for believing this?

God spoke with humans. He even spoke in Jesus baptism, in Jesus' transfiguration, and in other ocassion. You do not believe the Scriptures, so, how can you know whatever you believe? Because some other human told you so?

Sure, God speaks all the time according to scripture. That does not mean God has vocal chords, teeth and a tongue in order to vocalize in human speech. Take Psalm 19 for instance,

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.​

So, you can clearly see God is able to speak, without having a physical body. Do you believe God has lungs? You need those for human vocalizations as well.

"God speaking" in scripture, is a figure of speech, no pun intended. It's an anthropomorphism, which is defined as, "the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object."

The Bible refers to the eye of God, the hand of God, etc., but these are not to be taken literally. God's "hand" doesn't have bones and fingernails that need to be clipped.

Tell clearly what religion you are, cause that will give the rest of the forum members the idea of why you do not want to believe what the Bible says, and where you get your beliefs from.

You note under "religion", I list "Love, Light, and Life"?:

1 John 4:8, "God is Love"
1 John 1:5: "God is Light"
John 4:24, "God is Spirit" (or Life)

In this discussion, I am speaking from a Christian perspective using Christian references. You are aware that not all Christians believe in biblical literalism, right?

 

[Eli G]

Well, the Scriptures (and I mean THE BIBLE) teach about One God, not about something abstract that can be manifested in many diferent ways. Of course, He can send any angel in human appearance, a human born before-spirit like Jesus was, a vision of Him like many in the Scriptures, a voice than a human can hear, etc ... but that doesn't mean He is not a real spirit person who can be seen by other spirits where He is.

Hindu believe in some gods who have multiple manifestations, while the True God is ONE, and He wants everyone to know and worship Him (only Him) in the right way. He is called JEHOVAH in His inspired written word and His name appears more than 6000 times in the Bible ... so, He wants everybody to know it (Psal. 83:18).

John 7:28 Therefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: “YOU both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and YOU do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.

 

[Windwalker]

Well, the Scriptures (and I mean THE BIBLE) teach about One God, not about something abstract that can be manifested in many diferent ways.

I'm only using the Christian scriptures in this discussion. But it appears you're not as familiar with them as I am in this discussion. For instance, to say that God cannot be manifested in many different ways?

"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son", Hebrews 1:1,2, as but one example.

God appeared as a burning bush, as another easy quick example. So yes, God can in fact be manifested in many different ways.

Of course, He can send any angel, a human born spirit like Jesus was, a vision of Him like many in the Scriptures, etc ... but that doesn't mean He is not a real spirit person who can be seen by other spirits where He is.

It doesn't make any sense for God to be a "spirit person", as you just called him. Do you believe that God is a finite being? That there are limits to God? That God is "a god", in essence, and not the Infinite, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent ONE? I did not know that Jehovah's Witnesses did not believe God was Infinite, but rather was a finite creature, like an angel or an human was. Apparently this is what you do believe in calling God a "spirit person". That's a unique perspective, even for JW's, from my understanding of them.

Hindu believe in some gods who have multiple manifestations. The True God is ONE, and He wants everyone to know and worship Him (only Him) in the right way. He is called JEHOVAH in His inspired written word and His name appears more than 6000 times in the Bible ... so, He wants everybody to know it (Psal. 83:18).

Who named God? God chose the name from the Hebrew language for himself at some point? Or was that name, the YHWH, one of the many different gods the Hebrews had, which was came to dominate the pantheon of other deities the Hebrews had worshipped historically? Name are usually given by someone to another person, such as a parent naming their child. People name the gods.

And BTW, God does manifest in multiple forms, such as 1 Tim 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh", referring to the person of Jesus in that verse.

John 7:28 Therefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: “YOU both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and YOU do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.

Again, this says nothing whatsoever about God having a physical body. How is it you are reading that from this?

 

[Eli G]

Of course: you are using the Bible to negate the Bible, because you do not believe what the Bible says, even if you think that you can use the Bible to support your non-biblical ideas.

Jehovah is One God, not an abstract thing. He is not a non-personal energy that can be anything you think it is. He is a real person who talked to Adam when He created him, to Abraham, to Moses, to the prophets, ... He is in heavens and He can be seen by billions of His creatures who live in heaven too. He is the Father of Jesus, not like an imaginary father that Jesus thinks he has, but a real Father with whom he has direct communication.

John 14:31 but, in order for the world to know that I love the Father, even as the Father has given me commandment [to do], so I am doing. Get up, let us go from here.

... 5:20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that YOU may marvel.

If you do not know God this way, it is exactly because of that: you do not know Him, the True God, and you need to, because He has promised many good things to humans who serve Him... No one can serve a God they don't know.

 

[Windwalker]

Of course: you are using the Bible to negate the Bible, because you do not believe what the Bible says, even if you think that you can use the Bible to support your non-biblical ideas.

I'm not using the Bible to negate the Bible. Disagreeing with how you interpret the Bible, and using the Bible to support my disagreement with you, is not negating the Bible. It's negating your ideas, which clearly lack support from the Bible.

Jehovah is One God, not an abstract thing.

You don't consider God to be ineffable, beyond comprehension and beyond defining with words? I think you are very alone in this. Most people consider God to be transcendent, which by definition is abstract, too abstract for the human mind to comprehend.

Need biblical support for this? "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isa. 55:9

He is not a non-personal energy that can be anything you think it is.

Have I said God is a "non-personal energy" in this discussion? And NO, I do not believe God can be anything you think it is, such as thinking God is a "spirit person", as you do without any biblical support.

He is a real person who talk to Adam when He created him, to Abraham, to Moses, to the prophets, ... He is in heavens and He can be seen by billions of His creatures who live in heaven too. He is the Father of Jesus, not like an imaginary father that Jesus thinks he has, but a real Father with whom he has direct communication.

I see God as personal, and can see God as my Father as well. But that does not mean I believe God is some "guy in the sky", as a spirit person. I see God as beyond such mental ideas that make God into an isolated being apart from me and the rest of creation. I see God far more personal and intimate than that, Present within all of creation itself, and within me.

Psalm 19
Jn 17:21
Jn 6:25

John 14:31 but, in order for the world to know that I love the Father, even as the Father has given me commandment [to do], so I am doing. Get up, let us go from here.

... 5:20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that YOU may marvel.

If you do not know God this way, it is exactly because of that: you do not know Him., and you need to, because He has promised many good things to humans who serve Him... No one can serve a God they don't know.

So, you're saying I do not know God, because I'm not a biblical literalist?

"The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand."

Romans 14​