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Featured How do you know God disagrees with me?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    I want everyone to be purified, sanctified, and reach the first degree of beauty, power, perfection, wealth, joy, and euphoric bliss in heaven.

    I wouldn't burn my worst enemy in hell. How do you know God doesn't feel the same?? Yes, that's what I thought, you don't know.

    But wait a minute...the Bible says this...the Bible says that...the Bible says x,y,and z....the Bible says A LOT OF THINGS!!!

    Everybody and their fairy God Mother believes different things about what the Bible actually says and there has been much bloodshed over who interprets it correctly and who is a heretic and which books are actually inspired.

    For many centuries Christians accepted the Apocrypha. The first Christian Bible contained those books and the largest most ancient Christian denomination by far, believes those books are the word of God.

    Who's right, who's wrong??

    Nobody knows! Everyone says they are right. How do you know I'm not right??

    I'm wrong when I blaspheme God, but if indeed God burns people in hell forever and ever and ever for not believing the right Dogmas or being confused (because God refuses to speak to them), well, such a cruel unjust God deserves to be despised as any psychopathic bigot deserves to be despised.

    But how do you know God is not nicer to people than myself? How do you know I don't inspire God to change his mind?? You don't know. Moses got God to change his mind.

    Just because the Bible says something, I can prove none of you actually follows the Bible. If you do, you deserve to be locked up and are a threat to society and liberty.

    The Bible says, "Faith of a mustard seed moves mountains"...anyone seen a mountain budge? The Bible says, "Those who believe in Christ will hold venomous serpents and poison will not affect them. Those who believe in me will do the works I do and greater works. Ask anything of the Father in my name and it will be done for you. Delight in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. Nothing will be impossible for you!" And so on and so forth.

    The promises in Scripture don't get fulfilled and no one seems to know how to interpret Scripture, so don't even think you can tell me I'm wrong because some ancient text loaded with confusion and contradiction says something. The Bible leads people to opposite opinions. Each person often has Scripture to back up their opposite beliefs.

    How do you know the Qur'an isn't the word of God? Roughly 1.6 billion people believe it to be the word of God and probably the vast majority of them are willing to go to their death rather than renounce it. Maybe God wants to speak to everyone through the Qur'an.

    Just because you have the courage to die for your belief in the Bible doesn't mean anything. Many Muslims are willing to lay down their lives for the Qur'an.

    So, bottom line is, I have just as much reason to believe that all people will be purified and perfected and eventually reach heaven, because "God is love. God is our Father". Many Human Fathers are willing to take a bullet for their children...even the ones who really cause them grief. If God is love, no human father can outdo him in generosity, right?

    How do you know I'm wrong? Yep...you don't know! God loves his enemies. I mean, how is loving your enemies throwing them into a lake of fire? Unless of course, they want to be thrown in a lake of fire...
     
  2. Earthling

    Earthling Well-Known Member

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    I could just spend all of my time arguing with you and if anyone but you listened to reason they could learn.

    That you want everyone to be purified, sanctified, and reach the "first degree of beauty, power, perfection, wealth, joy and euphoric bliss in heaven" means little more than nothing. You're not in charge. There is a reason a few will go to heaven. God, through the Bible, says He created the heavens for himself and the angels. He says he created the earth for mankind to live forever in peace upon it. Do you honestly think that he will change his mind because you or the Catholic church says otherwise? You are mistaken.

    I want every man, woman and child who ever lived to enjoy paradise on earth and life everlasting without sin, death or corruption. Doesn't matter. Won't happen. Because there is a reason God wanted people to have that opportunity. Some don't want it and some want God to do something else. Some wouldn't live in accordance to God's purpose of everlasting life in paradise on earth. There's nothing I can do about it. Wishing it don't make it true. Some men, women and children won't enjoy it. Many wouldn't want to.

    I do know. God wouldn't literally burn his worst enemy in hell. God would, and has, burned people literally but you can, to a degree, conclude that he put them to death first, as that was the Hebrew practice as well. Even if he didn't they only burned for a little while and not literally forever in the pagan hell.



    And so do you and so does the Catholic Church. I believe the Bible. Not you. Not the church.



    And there has always existed someone who did the same of their own accord, including the Catholic Church and the Watchtower and myself and you.



    Show me where the Bible contradicts itself. If the Apocrypha contradicts the rest of the Bible then it is discarded. Separate.

    Well, then, if that is the case then stop making assumptions of a quixotic nature in his name and proclaim him to be the monster he is. Or are you just looking for a ride to heaven where you hear everything is bliss and wealth and blah, blah, blah.

    You either made that **** up in your head, or someone else did and you bought into it. I suggest you get rid of it and wake up from the perpetual dream you're in.

    The truth will set you free. It may be buried in thousands of years of ****, it may be something you didn't think it was, but you can have it.



    Moses didn't step foot in the promised land. Why do you think that Michael and Satan disputed over what should happen to Moses' body? Because it would have been worshiped like Mary is today.

    Did you pull that out of your ***? Put it where it belongs.

    lead_720_405.jpg

    Faith in money moved this mountain, do you really believe that faith in God couldn't, even without money?




    Spurious scripture. Only appears in later manuscripts.



    Have they not? Did they not spread his teachings far beyond his own immediate reach?

    Who do you think you are?! Asking God for guidance while doubting and renouncing him all the while? What do you expect to accomplish. Write your own Bible. You love God, you say, but you don't know what it means to love God. And you think I'm arrogant?!



    You think that the nonsense you spout is immune to opposing opinions?

    There are two ways to interpret the Bible or anything else. The right way and the wrong way. You want to test this? Debate me on any subject of the Bible.


    So? Does it claim to be the word of God? Which God?

    What is the lake of fire? Is it a metaphor for eternal destruction? Is it a literal lake? What does it mean that death and Hades are thrown into it?

    You don't have a clue because you are mislead by your own whims and the Catholic church. Now you can believe what you want, but if you start slamming the Bible you are accountable for your own ignorance.
     
  3. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    There are many contradictions in the Bible. I don't know where to begin. Here perhaps:
    101 Contradictions in the Bible.

    Jesus Christ taught what was the opposite of many verses in the OT.

    Funny, I don't worship mary and the Catholic Church condemns giving the honor that belongs to God alone to anyone less than God.

    Also, if asking souls in heaven to help you, was offensive to God, there would be something in the New Testament that would condemn Christians doing that. Every Christian Church on earth did it for over 1500 years.

    Also, I don't believe the Catholic Church is without error in it's teachings, but what I can say is that the Catholic Church has way more credibility than a hypocrite like yourself. You believe the Bible is the final authority and you don't even use it as your final authority. If you truly believed the Bible was your final authority, you would show me where the Bible says it is the final authority. Sorry my friend, but you lose again!

    Your New Testament canon was a decision made by the Catholic Church. If you don't trust the Church, you have little reason to trust a Catholic book like the Bible.

    Unlike you, I admit that I could be wrong. You do not know that the Qur'an is not the word of God. Tell me how you know this? Oh, you have a violent book that says scripture is inspired by God, and that makes it true. Sorry, you lose! As usual!
     
  4. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

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    He told me. He said "...that PopeaDope, sometimes he's right, sometimes not so much..."
     
  5. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Hard to explain things to someone whose mind is made up and won't listen to other possibilities.
     
  6. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    Who do I pray to that God detests?
    if it was so important, there would be something in the New Testament that condemns invoking souls in heaven.
    Even the Old Testament doesn't condemn what I do. Even if it did, you don't follow the Old Testament anyways, so you accuse me based on your verse from the Old Testament is total hypocrisy on your part!
    You use an extremist text that promotes baby-killing, child-killing, lady-killing, and extermination of cities and animals within the cities, as your basis for saying what I do is wrong. Let's not forgot God told the Israelites to not make graven images of animals on earth or Angels in the heavens, then made an exception to the rule and said "make a bronze serpent, make two golden Angels". God said 'thou shall not kill (murder)" then commanded murder. Killing children and babies who are not threatening, is murder.

    Even the Old Testament doesn't condemn what I do. The Old Testament condemns necromancy in the context of a séance summoning spirits from Sheol, which risks summoning evil spirits. Asking souls in Heaven for help was never condemned in the Bible and certainly not in the new testament, and you don't follow the old testament or you would eat kosher, kill people for working on the Sabbath, and stone adulterers. You would also think that women who are raped should marry their rapist.

    You do not follow the bible my friend! If you did, you would NEVER believe the Bible is the final authority. You destroy your premise in every argument we have because you claim to follow the Bible, yet you promote a man-made extrabiblical Dogma that didn't exist before the 16th century. You make false accusations and constantly attack the faith and practices of others, how does it feel to have a taste of your own medicine?

    The Bible was preserved by the Catholic Church and Catholic Monks spent decades writing Bibles by hand before the printing press.

    How do you know Monks, friars, nuns, anchorites, and figures like Francis of Assissi who spent their whole lives in prayer, were entirely devoted to God, and cared for the lepers and the sick, were somehow more confused than you?
     
  7. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    How do you know the universe disagrees with you? It's this type of question. You don't even know if the universe is a person in the first place, let alone believe someone claiming to be it's spokesperson. Switch from that analogy to God and you have my answer.
     
  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    If you check the Bible closely it does not say anything about souls in Heaven so why pray to something that does not exist?
     
  9. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    Jesus was seen with Moses and Elijah. the poor man Lazarus was taken to Abraham's bosom.

    In the Book of Revelation, the martyrs slain for Christ were begging for vengeance.

    however, nothing in the Bible says that a belief has to be in the Bible to be true.
     
  10. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    I don't know one way or the other. at least I'm willing to admit that I do not know. Some people refuse to admit that.
     
  11. Earthling

    Earthling Well-Known Member

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    Then Matthew (@PopeADope) and I have our work cut out for us, that's for sure. Hard, but not impossible. Pointless? . . . That's debatable, but what isn't?

    [Sigh] Bottom line. We're both committed. Or should be.
     
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  12. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    I actually agree with you for a change! :)
     
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  13. Earthling

    Earthling Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, buddy. If I have time I should be able to get to all of those by the new year, but I can only promise you I will put considerably more thought into it as you have. In the meanwhile . . .

    1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

    The answer is both. Jehovah was not pleased with Israel and so allowed Satan (footnote, Hebrew satan without the definite article ha, i.e. the Hebrew word satan meaning resister or adversary) to mislead David. Joseph B. Rotherham’s translation: “The anger of Yahweh kindled against Israel, so that he suffered David to be moved against them saying, Go count Israel and Judah.” Byington translates it “a Satan”; Young’s translation reads, “an adversary.” At the time Israel had rebelled against Jehovah, first by following Absalom and then Sheba, the son of Bichri. (2 Samuel 15:10-12 / 2 Samuel 20:1-2) This caused Jehovah to remove his protection, thus opening up the possibility that some resister or adversary would influence David to misstep. Since the original language of 2 Samuel 24:1 mentions a "he" that incites David and the Hebrew word satan without the definite article simply means "adversary" or "resister" this could apply to one of David's councilors, Satan or Jehovah himself by withdrawing his protection due to their wrong doing.

    Such as?

    I have heard you say many bad things about God but I have never heard you say anything but good about Mary.

    The Assumption of Mary presents Mary as having ascended to heaven in the flesh. (1 Corinthians 15:50) The Bible says no such thing. The early Christians had no such beliefs. After the church adopted the pagan trinity people began venerating her. "Mother of God," "Queen of Heaven," and "Mediatrix," became popular terms. In the fourth century C.E. the assumptionist apocrypha started to circulate. Spurious accounts of the apostles gathering to Mary who they witnessed healing the blind, deaf and lame. Many were attracted to these sorts of fanciful stories, but others rejected them as contradictory and without authority.

    There were cases of her alleged relics of her body being venerated, which contradicted her assumption. In the thirteenth century Aquinas rejected it as unscriptural. Popes Leo XIII, Pius X, and Benedict XV also rejected it. It was only on November 1, 1950, (Changed from All Saints Day by Pope Gregory III 731-741 C.E. all souls day, see below) that the church, that is, Pope Pius XII, announced the church's acceptance of the Assumption of Mary.

    Well, by your own admission, the Bible says many things and we can interpret them differently so what authority does the Bible have in our discussion?

    So?

    The Encyclopædia Britannica: “All Souls’ Day . . . the day set apart in the Roman Catholic Church for the commemoration of the faithful departed. The celebration is based on the doctrine that the souls of the faithful which at death have not been cleansed from venial sins, or have not atoned for past transgressions, cannot attain the Beatific Vision, and that they may be helped to do so by prayer and by the sacrifice of the mass. . . . Certain popular beliefs connected with All Souls’ Day are of pagan origin and immemorial antiquity. Thus the dead are believed by the peasantry of many Catholic countries to return to their former homes on All Souls’ night and partake of the food of the living.” - 1910, Vol. I, p. 709.

    The Encyclopedia Americana: “Elements of the customs connected with Halloween can be traced to a Druid ceremony in pre-Christian times. The Celts had festivals for two major gods—a sun god and a god of the dead (called Samhain), whose festival was held on November 1, the beginning of the Celtic New Year. The festival of the dead was gradually incorporated into Christian ritual.” - 1977, Vol. 13, p. 725.

    Who did these pagan celebrations concern themselves with? Firstly, the dead who were destroyed by God in the great deluge.

    The Worship of the Dead: “The mythologies of all the ancient nations are interwoven with the events of the Deluge . . . The force of this argument is illustrated by the fact of the observance of a great festival of the dead in commemoration of the event, not only by nations more or less in communication with each other, but by others widely separated, both by the ocean and by centuries of time. This festival is, moreover, held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the Deluge took place, viz., the seventeenth day of the second month - the month nearly corresponding with our November.” (London, 1904, Colonel J. Garnier, p. 4)

    Does it? Do I have the crusades and inquisition under my belt? Do I advocate and protect child molesters? Do I meddle in politics, supporting wars that produced rivers of blood? Did I sell confessions having no authority to do so? Did I adopt nonsensical unscriptural pagan teachings to gather supporters for glory, power, and greed?

    Final authority? Did I make this claim? Does the Bible? This is nonsense. Jehovah is the final authority.

    The canon of the Bible was agreed upon as early as 170 B.C.E. as Origen and Eusebius attested to. 150 - 200 years later the Council of Carthage merely agreed. If it were a Catholic book why is the assumption of Mary, her immaculate conception, prayer to her, veneration of relics, holy water, mass, and the pope being vicar of Christ, not to mention monsignors, archbishops, cardinals, purgatory, celibate clergy, novenas and infant baptisms not mentioned in the Bible?

    Listen to yourself. I, along with you, have admitted repeatedly here that I can be wrong, in fact have done so. How do I know the Qur'an isn't the word of God? Because it wasn't inspired, it contradicts the Bible and has no real message beyond religiosity. No historical support. Nothing in it even remotely hints at being the word of God. If anything the transcription of a near illiterate pedophile fanatic.
     
    #13 Earthling, Sep 14, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2018
  14. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    Saying Mary was taken to heaven, is not idolatrous.

    The reason I don't say more bad things about Mary is, I see her under attack a lot by Christians. No need to go with the norm. Another reason is, where I'm from it's worse to talk about someone's mom than to insult the person.

    Another reason is she is not God, therefore the decisions of God are not her fault. God chose to create the devil, let the devil do his work, God chose to commit genocide, and chose to hide himself, long before he ever created Mary.

    It's true that the Catholic Church has many corrupt people. Yet there is nothing in the Catholic church that officially teaches that that behavior is okay.

    It's true that you have not started any Crusades, but the Old Testament is full of violence that God commanded. And you defend it.

    The Bible says God is a baby killer, a lady killer, and a child killer.

    Also, recognizing corruption in the Catholic Church doesn't really mean anything. Jesus chose Judas after all to be one of his right-hand men.

    There are Judas Priests and Judas Bishops. Ancient Israel had all kinds of corruption even from annointed men after God's Own Heart. Corruption does not change the fact that the Israelites were the people with the true faith (according to scripture).

    So your argument regarding corruption, is a straw man. The Bible loudly declares that a very corrupt group of people can still have the true faith and traditions.

    Also, where does invoking souls in heaven prove to be something that God detests?

    Also, Jesus taught people to turn the other cheek, which was a totally different instruction than what is in the Old Testament. He did that as well when he said that a person has to be without sin to cast the first stone at an adulteress.

    Funny, Jesus is so offended by the Catholics honoring their Saints, and he knew it would be such a common thing for every Christian Church on the face of the Earth, yet he never spoke against it , neither did the other authors of the New Testament.

    It goes to show that he really doesn't care after all. You can quote the Old Testament that you don't follow and I could care less.

    Do you think adulterers should be stoned and people be killed for working on Sabbath? Do you think a victim of rape should have to marry the guy that raped her?

    Well then, you don't follow the Old Testament. It was a government that did a lot of the atrocities like seen in the Spanish Inquisition.

    Also, I already proved you don't follow the Bible. You have an attitude like a person who believes the Bible is the greatest Authority.

    God never taught that in the Bible.

    The Bible is a Catholic book! It's quite easy to prove that! The first Christians were not Bible Christians. How do you know you have the correct New Testament Canon?

    Where were the Protestants or the Jehovah's Witnesses when the first Christian Bible was put together.?

    Protestantism is a man-made religion with a Doctrine that didn't exist in any Christian Church before the 16th century.

    You now claim that the Bible is not the final Authority. Do you believe the Bible is supposed to be the sole rule of Christian faith? if so, why did the Bible not declare which writings belonged in the New Testament Canon?
     
  15. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    Also, your claim that heaven doesn't exist, is not biblical.
    The poor man Lazarus was taken to Abraham's bosom. Jesus was seen with Moses and Elijah. In the Book of Revelation, the martyrs that were slain for Christ were begging for God's vengeance upon their enemies.

    keep in mind that most of the words of Jesus Christ and most of the words of God were never written down.

    Also, the New Testament makes it clear that some of what was formally forbidden became okay. What God despises at one time in history, he can later approve of.
     
  16. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    Yes I understand that for every scripture verse there is always a big long explanation to suit a person's agenda.

    when the Quran is under attack, I see Muslims produce these big long explanations about what the Quran means and how to interpret the verse.

    Muslims also come up with these big long explanations for why Muhammad was not a pedophile.

    Nobody actually knows they have the correct interpretation. Everyone just makes excuses to justify their stance regarding scripture.

    I have no reason to believe that they have the truth.

    I see a bunch of divided people, some of them very intelligent, giving explanations of verses that lead people to opposite views. I've seen Protestant pastors who converted to Catholicism give an extremely intelligent explanation of the Bible and how it supports Catholicism. I seen them claim it was the Bible that led them to be Catholic.

    I'm honestly quite sick of it!
     
  17. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Before going off on a rant like this you should first figure out where you learned about what Hell is in the first place. If it is the bible then Hell is usually described by apocalyptic trash talk that isn't literal. All those worms and burning torment are description of the valley of Gahanna where Jerusalem's trash was kept burning round the clock. Most likely the imagery is meant to convey the level of loss for those consigned to Hell. IMO Hell if it is a real place at present is eventually destroyed when the bible says it is cast into the lake of fire. So hell at least eventually is the soul's complete annihilation. So a person lives their whole life avoiding any relationship with God and when he dies he gets exactly what he wanted, no God. A little divine poetical justice. If you want verses and details to back all of this up just let me know.
     
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  18. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Lots of folks mention that hell was not meant to be literal, but rather an analogy with a famous trash heap in ancient Israel. If it even originally wasn't meant to describe a mandated eternal torment, why believe in it?

    Of course lots of religions believe in some kind of punishment after death for people who were immoral or somehow disagreed with religious leaders culture at the time.
     
  19. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    Most Christians believe hell is eternal
     
  20. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    Most Christians I've met believe hell is eternal. Christians have been preaching that hell is eternal for so long because Jesus said The Condemned will go off to Eternal punishment.

    The rich man in the fires being tormented was interacting with Abraham. The fire was not killing him.
     
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