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Featured How do you Define God????

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Bird123, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    In a factory making expensive cars, robots, the products have quality control. If there is a defective product that may be fixed without too much trouble, it shall be done. If, however, the product is beyond fixing; so that it is cheaper to make a new one, then it is destroyed.

    God gives each person free will to learn to obey - taking our imperfection into consideration. If a unit refuses to (free will) adjust as needed, it will be destroyed. However, God gives each of us plenty of time to grow and learn (most times). Thus, many may have to learn that their choices lead to suffering. Still, refusal to become an obedient believer shall lead to that person's destruction.
     
  2. anonymous9887

    anonymous9887 bible reader

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    Well problems have existed for thousands of years. how come we still have problems? How come you gave no attention to the other parts of my reply?
     
  3. anonymous9887

    anonymous9887 bible reader

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    1. The meaning of life is to be in submission to the creator
    2. Original sin makes perfect sense, since there is and has not been a sinless human, not even Muhammad which sinned 3 times. Jesus was the one who remained sinless. If original sin is not true, how come our genetics show sinful tendencies. We inherit traits from our parents. Honestly I say genetics confirms original sin. Otherwise Allah created us to be crippled, sin, and die, and it was part of Allah's original purpose.
    3. Just because there are Christians that make serious mistakes does not make all true Christians that way, as I am sure there are so- called Muslims that make true Muslims look bad.
    4. Yes you are right, god does not need us, but we can bring pleasure to god by us choosing to submit to him.
     
  4. anonymous9887

    anonymous9887 bible reader

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    God did Not create a place of fiery torment. Majority of religions teach this fiery hell doctrine, but it is not true
    Mormans
    Muslims
    various denominations of Christianity
    Catholics
    etc...
    the bible does not teach a fiery hell
     
  5. illykitty

    illykitty RF's pet cat

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    @Bird123 Well, I don't define god(s) by those terms. One reason why I'm not a follower of the Bible is that I cannot reconcile these examples you listed within myself nor do I think it sounds like a god I'd want to worship.

    Of course there might me some different interpretation, not limited to but including non-literal, and while I appreciate them, I haven't found any to be appealing to me.
     
  6. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Where does God teach original sin in the Bible? I want to see God's words, or those of his Prophets.

    There are plenty of people who go through life without causing harm to others. Can you define 'sin' for me?
     
  7. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    For Christians, sin simply is translated into "missing the mark".

    Original means "first". The first time man missed the mark is when Adam and Eve thought there was a better way than following the instructions that God gave.

    Speaking in our personal lives, we all have our first original sin. It may have been lying or disobedience or lack of honor to who honor is due... but we all have our own "original" missing the mark.

    Regardless of the sin, there was an original blood sacrifice to cover it. In Genesis chapter 3 we find man trying to fix his own short comings by the creating a clothing made of fig leaves. However, it didn't produce the fruit of a changed heart.

    God, therefore, created His own covering with the shedding of blood and clothed man and woman with the skin of the animal. It doesn't say which animal but my personal belief was that it was a lamb since I assume that Adam taught Abel about the sacrificing of lambs. At the same time, in Chapter 3, God talked about the redemption that was available to everyone who misses the mark...again, not by man's doing but by God's doing.

    So the first forgiveness, restoration, redemption and sanctification was also found in Chapter 3.

    Jesus cursed the fig tree that died signifying that man's ability to fix problems doesn't produce the fruit that really takes care of missing the mark. Jesus, as the Lamb of God and by God's doing, became the eternal sacrifice so that all mankind can find forgiveness and communion with God
     
  8. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I'm not looking for any "answers". Been there, done that. It turns out that the mystery is worth far more to me than any presumptive answers I could adopt.
     
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  9. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Missing the mark causes women to suffer the pains of child bearing? Missing the mark causes all of mankind to inherit their mistake? All they did was eat some fruit. Hardly the crime of the Century is it?

    Man has been programmed to seek the meaning of life beyond natural World.

    I see self awareness and guilt. No blood sacrifice. And if you think Jesus pbuh was the blood sacrifice, then how has that shown changed hearts since he left Earth?

    Good God fearing people existed since the time of Adam and Eve pbut, and have existed in many cultures/beliefs outside of Christianity after Jesus pbuh left. Clearly there was ZERO result of a pointless human sacrifice, and nothing to do with any original sin. Jesus pbuh himself knew nothing about this Church Doctrine.

    They initially used fig leaves:

    Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    In verse 21: Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    No mention of a Lamb. you would think it should have been a perfect opportunity to mention lamb and make the important connection to the First Century account of crucfiction.

    Their punishment was to leave Eden and toil the land for their sustenance, and await guidance.

    It was God's soil and water that were responsible for the tree's fruit. There are Billions of people in communion with God, who do not believe in the made up cross sacrifice.
     
  10. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    We should have a T-shirt burning party. :)
     
  11. anonymous9887

    anonymous9887 bible reader

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    Sin means to mis the mark. God has a standard and we can either keep it perfectly or not. Im sure you agree that god has commands and standards, now the question is can we keep it perfectly? And if not why?
    Genesis 8:21
    Ecclesiastes 7:20
    Psalms 51:5 by david
    Job 14:4
    Psalms 130:3

    I would give you other quotes but I know you dont accept Paul.

    But genetics proves original sin.
     
  12. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    How would define who would create Hell knowing someone would go there and who preaches, dies and resurrects to prevent you from going there, so that only a really, really foolish person would go there voluntarily and so that no one will say in Hell, "How did this happen? How did I get here?"
     
  13. anonymous9887

    anonymous9887 bible reader

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    So then basically when a baby is born with a defect that is god's perfect creation.

    Genesis 1:31 says that everything god created was good. Explain to me in the Qur'an why there is babys with defects if god created everything good?
    Why does genetics say we inherit traits from our parents, like defects, and many other traits?
     
  14. anonymous9887

    anonymous9887 bible reader

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    Disobedience to the almighty creator that provided all things for you is a huge sin.

    Either pain, and death were brought on by Adam, or god created us to get sick, die, and be deformed. But again genetics conflicts with the Qur'an.
     
  15. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    ???? You asked what sin was which I answered.

    Now you are talking about something totally different. Please don't move the goal post.

    As far as the moved goalpost, the mistake was giving the dominion of the world to Satan. I think that is a larger error than just "eating a fruit".

    Agreed

    Yes, a law gives us self awareness of guilt. Without a law there is no awareness of guilt.

    How has it shown changed hearts? Well... besides mine, there was Saul who became Paul, Simon who became Peter and the billions of others all over the world who would say "I have a heart change".

    Scripturally, God said "

    Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

    Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

    Yes... there have been good God fearing people... did I say there wasn't?

    but.. "ZERO"??? Jesus knew this doctrine as his precursor and clarion said "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world"!

    Jesus (pbuh) himself said in Matt 28:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    If you care to read a little more carefully, I said "I believe" and not "it was". It could have been a bull too or whatever.

    I believe it was a lamb because Abel brought a lamb and sacrificed it and it was acceptable to God. Who taught him if not Adam? I believe it was a lamb because He told Moses to sacrifice a lamb.

    I could be wrong, of course, but the real issue was that a blood covenant was enacted, the strongest of covenants.

    yes... that was part of it.

    How do you know? And how do you know that it wasn't the sacrifice that made it possible?
     
  16. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Ok, sin is to miss the mark. Does the following miss the mark,

    Beating people, cursing them and ignoring parents?
    What about thinking God has abandoned you and losing hope, is that missing the mark?

    Great verses and they show us man can never be perfect, no matter how many good works, commandments you follow. So what is the lesson we take from this? Does God want us to be perfect men with imperfect hearts? No, He wants us to strive, to struggle, to fall short, but then get up and keep trying and make effort. We may stumble, but the test is will you still have faith and cling to God no matter what?
     
  17. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Following the use of agent orange, nuclear leaks, and white phosphorus, children have been born with defects. Is this down to God or man made environmental factors?
     
  18. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    My questions were relevant to Adam and Eve pbut and what Christians describe as a unforgivable sin that has passed down from their them through the ages. As shown this concept of original sin is not taught in the Torah or by Jesus pbuh.


    No different to the Billions of people who don't believe in the cross. What am I missing that's so great about a innocent man 'allegedly' dying on the cross 2,000 years ago?

    I'm sorry but Thousands of different Churches all claim to be the ones with the true Spirit in them, and they alone can guide you to salvation. Doesn't sound like a undivided heart to me.

    Without examining the context of these verses, it's likely Prophet Ezekiel pbuh was asking God to open the hearts of the people to worship and be obedient to God alone.

    Yes zero point in a innocent man dying 2,000 years ago.

    My Muslim instinct tells me Jesus pbuh never said these words.

    Let's see if I'm right.

    Are these the facts:

    First Century followers of Jesus pbuh witnessed him being crucified and dying on the cross, he rose from the tomb after 3 days, appeared to many, telling them to take the message to the World. He eventually returned to God the Father. Within a few years Tens of Thousands of people accepted the teachings of the Disciples and accepted the death and resurrection account. The early Church Fathers testify to these facts.

    You forgot about Abraham pbuh and his test of sacrificing his first born, it was a Ram not a Lamb that was enough for God.


    The covenant of circumcision was in place, and we know God in the Torah hates human sacrifice.

    I can tell you, Jews never accepted the cross, and later Muslims totally denied Jesus pbuh was even on a cross. In fact the God of Abraham pbuh tells us, you Christians have no knowledge of what happened.
     
  19. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    What do you mean by Satan was given dominion of the World?
     
  20. anonymous9887

    anonymous9887 bible reader

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    1. what you mentioned is missing the mark

    2. yes we cannot be perfect. So Allah created an imperfect creation? Jesus remained sinless, why?

    Lets summarize what we are saying here:
    You: Basically Allah created us incapable of serving him 100%, With sin comes the destruction here on earth today. So god created us with the intention of living in a sinful world unable to fully please him.

    Me: My god created Adam and Eve perfect with free will, and gave them assignments to fill the earth and cultivate the garden he put them in. He had a perfect purpose for them if they so chose to.

    I have no problem serving god no matter what, but the idea that he intentionally created us with sinful tendencies doesnt seem like a god of love. Again Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that he created and it was very good"
     
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